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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome


Caringheart, there is a big difference between “WITH him” and “HE is”

If the spirit of God is with him and he is the Spirit of God then what you are implying is that Jesus is with Jesus.

So this verseI saw the Spirit descending from heaven... and abode upon him.”(John 1:32) Will imply that Jesus abode upon Jesus.

Which one is really Jesus (S)?

thc



Greetings TNC,

Your question made me think of this:

"Will the "real" Jesus please stand up."  Sorry just my humor. LOL

Anyway,
"... there is a big difference between “WITH him” and “HE is”

Truly there is not.
The Spirit of God was with Him, and He was, and is, that Spirit of God.

This goes to understanding the Holy Trinity, which I have as yet to be able to explain and make clear to any Muslim.  It must be a mystery revealed to the mind only by God himself.
They are all one and the same... Father(Creator God), Son(Father in the flesh, conceived as the Son), and Holy Spirit(the spirit of God).
Just as a three leaf clover has three leaves, but they are all part of one clover.

"So this verse “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven... and abode upon him.”(John 1:32) Will imply that Jesus abode upon Jesus."

The flesh was flesh before God sent the Spirit(the power of God), at baptism.  Did Jesus perform any miracles before receiving the Spirit, the power of God?  Until then He was flesh with divine knowledge but without the power.

This is the way I understand.
Caringheart
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

 

Peace unto you!

So what they received there? <>

It says in John.20:21-22 “...As my father hath sent me, even so I “send” you (the disciple) and when he had said this, he breathe on them, and said unto them, “received ye the Holy Ghost.” (John.20:21-22).

They were then sent to go and remit sins:

“Whosesoever sins ye (The disciples) remit, they are remited unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” John 20:23

  Did they remit sins empty handed?

tnc



Greetings TNC,

Ok, so I have taken time to look up the passage.  This was after Jesus had risen and came back and appeared to His disciples, so yes, I guess it is referring to the Disciples receiving the Holy Spirit from Jesus so that they could begin their ministry.
This is one of the differences in the accounts of how the Holy Spirit was received.  I guess it depends on how it was described by the Apostles themselves and how it was later interpreted and recounted.  Remember that there were accounts being told in different places changing languages and so language would have an impact on how it was translated.  You know how sometimes there just isn't a word in one language that describes another word in another language?  Sometimes it is hard to convey meaning when changing languages.  This was the way John conveyed the meaning of the Apostles receiving the Holy Spirit from Jesus.

Remember I am no academic.  This is purely from my own studying and understanding.  I am not taking from any 'expert' interpretation, only what God has given me to understand.  This is just me and my own understanding. Smile

Blessings to you,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 09 October 2012 at 8:22pm
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2012 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by honeto

Hasan
Greetings,I really hate when people confuse my words when I think I have been quite clear.  I will say it again.The Holy Spirit whom Jesus referred to while He was with His apostles was Himself... the Holy Spirit was in Jesus... remember the Spirit of God... the dove... which descended upon Jesus when John the Baptist baptized Him?  Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to His apostles after He was gone from the earth... that the Holy Spirit could not come into them while He was still here on earth, but when He was gone they would not be left alone... that when He was gone he would send that Spirit[of Himself] to them, to indwell them.While with them in the flesh, Jesus was that Holy Spirit of God.Once he was gone the Holy Spirit came into the Apostle's at pentacost.No confusion.Is it a mystery?  Yes.  Mystery is not the same as confusion.Salaam


Caringheart,
so you are now saying that Jesus was also the "Holy spirit" when he was with the disciples? That's what you are saying when you said:" The Holy Spirit whom Jesus referred to while He was with His apostles was Himself... the Holy Spirit was in Jesus."
That creates a couple of more questions at least, I will ask only one at this time the second one after you clearify:
1-So at that time two persons of the "Trinity" were on earth, one being the "Holy Spirit" and other being the "Jesus, Son of God" according to you?
If that was the case, whatever is coming out of Jesus' mouth, is it both speaking combined or is it Jesus the son of God, or God the Holy Spirit talking?
I want your clear answer to that question so I can proceed.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 15 October 2012 at 3:19pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 17 October 2012 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by honeto

Hasan
Greetings,I really hate when people confuse my words when I think I have been quite clear.  I will say it again.The Holy Spirit whom Jesus referred to while He was with His apostles was Himself... the Holy Spirit was in Jesus... remember the Spirit of God... the dove... which descended upon Jesus when John the Baptist baptized Him?  Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to His apostles after He was gone from the earth... that the Holy Spirit could not come into them while He was still here on earth, but when He was gone they would not be left alone... that when He was gone he would send that Spirit[of Himself] to them, to indwell them.While with them in the flesh, Jesus was that Holy Spirit of God.Once he was gone the Holy Spirit came into the Apostle's at pentacost.No confusion.Is it a mystery?  Yes.  Mystery is not the same as confusion.Salaam


Caringheart,
That creates a couple of more questions at least, I will ask only one at this time the second one after you clearify:
1-So at that time two persons of the "Trinity" were on earth, one being the "Holy Spirit" and other being the "Jesus, Son of God" according to you?
If that was the case, whatever is coming out of Jesus' mouth, is it both speaking combined or is it Jesus the son of God, or God the Holy Spirit talking?
I want your clear answer to that question so I can proceed.
Hasan


Greetings Hasan,

I say this most respectfully to you.  You and I have gone over the understanding of the Holy Trinity so many times that I don't wish to keep going over it with you.
I only engaged TNC because he was interested and we had not as yet discussed it.
But because my time and energy is limited, I don't wish to go around in circles on the subject.  I believe it has to be revealed by the Spirit of God and He reveals it to those with open hearts to receive it.  You can always read back through some of our earlier conversations.  Smile
To give an answer to your question though, because you have most respectfully asked;
"1-So at that time two persons of the "Trinity" were on earth, one being the "Holy Spirit" and other being the "Jesus, Son of God" according to you?
If that was the case, whatever is coming out of Jesus' mouth, is it both speaking combined or is it Jesus the son of God, or God the Holy Spirit talking? "
They are one and the same.  Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
I wonder if you would read the book The Shack, if that would help illuminate the relationship, as I thought it did a very good job of doing when I read it.

My sincerest wishes for you Hasan,
Caringheart
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truthnowcome
 
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Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 21 October 2012 at 9:30pm
<>

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by truthnowcome

 

Peace unto you!

So what they received there? <>

It says in John.20:21-22 “...As my father hath sent me, even so I “send” you (the disciple) and when he had said this, he breathe on them, and said unto them, “received ye the Holy Ghost.” (John.20:21-22).

They were then sent to go and remit sins:

“Whosesoever sins ye (The disciples) remit, they are remited unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” John 20:23

  Did they remit sins empty handed?

tnc



Greetings TNC,

Ok, so I have taken time to look up the passage.  This was after Jesus had risen and came back and appeared to His disciples, so yes, I guess it is referring to the Disciples receiving the Holy Spirit from Jesus so that they could begin their ministry.
This is one of the differences in the accounts of how the Holy Spirit was received.  I guess it depends on how it was described by the Apostles themselves and how it was later interpreted and recounted.  Remember that there were accounts being told in different places changing languages and so language would have an impact on how it was translated.  You know how sometimes there just isn't a word in one language that describes another word in another language?  Sometimes it is hard to convey meaning when changing languages.  This was the way John conveyed the meaning of the Apostles receiving the Holy Spirit from Jesus.

Remember I am no academic.  This is purely from my own studying and understanding.  I am not taking from any 'expert' interpretation, only what God has given me to understand.  This is just me and my own understanding. mile

Blessings to you,
Caringheart

 

Peace my friend Caringheart,

 

Now you are in serious troble because you are guessing to prove nothing.

 

Here in John16: 7 Jesus (S) said: “Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is expedient for you that ‘I go’ for if ‘I go not away’, the comforter will not come unto you, but if ‘i depart’, i will send him unto you.” (John 16:7)

 

Jesus (S) laid a “condition” for the Comforter to come and that is, “He has to go to the Father before the Comforter comes” but according John.20:21-22 they deciples received the Holy Spirit before he leave:

...as my father hath sent me, even so I send you (the disciple) and  when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, received ye the holy ghost.” (John.20:21-22)

Now, which account is correct? You don’t have to be an academic to recognize that.

 

 

tnc

LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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truthnowcome
 
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Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 21 October 2012 at 10:21pm
<>

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by truthnowcome

Caringheart, there is a big difference between “WITH him” and “HE is”

If the spirit of God is with him and he is the Spirit of God then what you are implying is that Jesus is with Jesus.

So this verseI saw the Spirit descending from heaven... and abode upon him.”(John 1:32) Will imply that Jesus abode upon Jesus.

Which one is really Jesus (S)?

thc



Greetings TNC,

Your question made me think of this:

"Will the "real" Jesus please stand up."  Sorry just my humor. OL

Anyway,
"... there is a big difference between “WITH him” and “HE is”

Truly there is not.
The Spirit of God was with Him, and He was, and is, that Spirit of God.

This goes to understanding the Holy Trinity, which I have as yet to be able to explain and make clear to any Muslim.  It must be a mystery revealed to the mind only by God himself.
They are all one and the same... Father(Creator God), Son(Father in the flesh, conceived as the Son), and Holy Spirit(the spirit of God).
Just as a three leaf clover has three leaves, but they are all part of one clover.

This is the way I understand.
Caringheart

Peace to you,

Caringheart don’t bring that crap to me about “Holy Trinity is a mystery to reveal by God Himself”. That is an excused when there is no explanation for  1+1+1 =1 !

If Father is the Creator God, and Son is Father in flesh well then the Father in flesh has no Power. He said: “I can of mine own self do nothing…” (John.5:30)

Also the Father in flesh has a God:

 

“…Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.” (John 20:16-17 AKJV)

 

According to him, his Father is “OUR GOD and HIS GOD; He has a GOD, He said: “MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.”

What a great mystery!

tnc

 

Originally posted by Caringheart


"So this verse “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven... and abode upon him.”(John 1:32) Will imply that Jesus abode upon Jesus."

The flesh was flesh before God sent the Spirit(the power of God), at baptism.  Did Jesus perform any miracles before receiving the Spirit, the power of God?  Until then He was flesh with divine knowledge but without the power.

This is the way I understand.
Caringheart

When Father God was in flesh he has no power he was a powerless God until he get help from Father Creator God; Father Creator God “SEND” Father Spirit God to help Father flesh God; what a mystery to revealed! And the three are one!

 

Caringheart there is no mystery about God and his Messengers. Let me show you what you don’t know about the message you claimed to believe.

 

Jesus (S) A FAITHFUL witness back there in the beginning:

“John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from “HIM” which is, and which was, and which is to come; “AND” FROM THE SEVEN SPIRITS WHICH ARE BEFORE HIS THRONE; V.5 “AND” from Jesus Christ, WHO IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS…” Rev.1: 4-5

 

  As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty: GRACE BE UNTO YOU, AND PEACE, FROM ‘HIM’ WHICH IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME”;

then the seven Spirits which is before the throne: “AND FROM THE SEVEN SPIRITS WHICH ARE BEFORE HIS THRONE;

and then Jesus Christ who is a Faithfull witness: “AND FROM JESUS CHRIST, WHO IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS”.

If the seven Spirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty. So the One, which is, which was and which is to come is “GOD ALMIGHTY” because God Almighty existed as he is, He was here when Adam was created on earth; and is yet to come in the end. In Rev. 1: 8 mentioned that! He is the ALMIGHTY:

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY. Rev.1:8 

The seven spirits were before the ALMIGHTY GOD’S THRONE and JESUS (S) WAS A “FAITHFUL WITNESS”. In Revelation 4: 2-11 and 5:1-7 mentioned who was on the Throne:

Revelation 4:2-11:

And immediately I (John) was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and ONE SAT ON THE THRONE. Rev. 4:2

 

The one that sits on the throne is God!

And he that sat WAS TO LOOK UPON LIKE A JASPER and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. Rev.4:3

 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. Rev.4:4 

And out of the throne preceded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning BEFORE THE THRONE, WHICH ARE THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD. Rev.4:5  

 

THE SEVEN SPIRIT IS BEFORE THE THRONE AND NOT ON THE THRONE; THEY ARE NOT PART OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, Rev.4:9

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev.4:11

THE ONE THAT SITS ON THE THRONE:

Revelation 5

And I saw in the right hand of “him that sat on the throne” a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. Rev.5:1

The One that sits on the throne has a book, and what he did with it? Let’s find out.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.Rev.5:5

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev.5:6

And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev.5:7

You see that? The One that sits on the throne has a book, and what happen with the book? The lamb took it. So, who took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne? The Lamb! And who is sitting on the throne? God Almighty!

Nothing new! It’s all in Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. Rev.1:1

“For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." (John 12:49)

And who was Jesus (S)? Revelation 1:5 says:

“Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness!

And who is God Almighty? He is the “creator”:

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.  Rev.4:11

And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,” Rev.4:9 

 

The God of the O.T. has (Holy) Spirits by the thousand. It is mentioned in Rev.4:5

“And out of the throne preceded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, WHICH ARE THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD.” Rev.4:5

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts FULL OF EYES before and behind. Rev.4:6 

What are these eyes? They represented Spirits:

…AND SEVEN EYES, which are the SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD sent forth into all the earth. Rev.5:6

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were FULL OF EYES WITHIN: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.  Rev.4:8

EYE REPRESENTS “SPIRIT” AND THOSE SPIRITS ARE SPIRITS FROM GOD ALMIGHTY AND THEY ARE HOLY. WHAT ARE THEY DOING? THEY ARE PRAISING GOD ALMIGHTY SAYING: “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, LORD GOD ALMIGHTY”.

THIS IS A DIFFERENT LEVEL OF INFORMATION COMING MY FRIEND!

So we can see God Almighty has Holy Spirits by the thousands! The Spirit (Ruh) and the angels will stand forth in front of Allah (S):

Ø  يَوْمَ يَقُومُ الرُّوحُ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ صَفًّا لَّا يَتَكَلَّمُونَ إِلَّا مَنْ أَذِنَ لَهُ الرحْمَنُ وَقَالَ صَوَابًا (78:38)

Yawma yaqoomu alrroohu waalmalaikatu saffan la yatakallamoona illa man athina lahu alrrahmanu waqala sawaban (Qur’an 78:38)

“The Day that the spirit and the angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (Allah) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right.” (Qur’an 78:38)

 

tnc



Edited by truthnowcome - 21 October 2012 at 10:22pm
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 22 October 2012 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

...as my father hath sent me, even so I send you (the disciple) and  when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, received ye the holy ghost.” (John.20:21-22)

Now, which account is correct? You don’t have to be an academic to recognize that.

tnc



Greetings TNC,

I tried to answer this, but perhaps I did not do so clearly.
The verse that you are quoting was from when Jesus was with his Apostle's after He had been resurrected.  He had gone.

Do I even find it confusing?  Yes.  But I do not expect to understand all that is God.  Jesus had gone, and returned, that is all that I know.  The Apostle's (who were many) testified to His return, and the events of His return, and of His ascending.

Salaam,
Caringheart

[notes:  Do you ever wonder about the Ka'aba transporting itself to Jerusalem?   Do you believe a rock tried to go with Muhammad to heaven?  Do these things make sense?]



Edited by Caringheart - 23 October 2012 at 9:30am
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 24 October 2012 at 11:56am
Caringheart,
so you realize your position, so its time to play!
Haha.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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