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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 21 August 2012 at 4:21pm

Originally posted by nothing

If I were to go out in public and publicizing the burning of Bible or pages of it than for surely I have a motive, no? It can't be just burning paper.

She wasn't in public, and she didn't publicize it:
"Miss Ramsha, 11, mentally retarded, daughter of Misraf Masih, was residing at Hameera abadi, sector G-8, Islamabad with a sizeable number of Christians, and was collecting used papers from the garbage for night cooking as there is no gas connections and poor people depend on burning wood. When, after sunset she was burning the copies of newspapers, collected from the garbage, a Muslim lady entered her house and started shouting that Ramsha is burning the papers from holy Quran. At that time her elder sister, Mashal, 14, was at home and her father and mother were out for their work.

"At this moment both sisters told the Muslim crowd, which was gathered after listening the shouting from Muslim lady, that the papers were from garbage and those are from newspapers but the crowd started beating them and suddenly their mother also arrived and she was also beaten. The other Christian residents also tried to settle the issue but they were beaten as well. Both sisters and her mother received injuries and in the meanwhile the owner of the house, a Muslim man, arrived and called the police in an effort to save the Christians."
http://www.humanrights.asia/news/urgent-appeals/AHRC-UAC-146-2012

I'm not saying the above account is entirely unbiased either, but think about it for a moment.  Is it really credible to believe that a twelve year old Christian girl would publicly burn the Quran in such a hostile neighbourhood?  Is it even likely that she could read Arabic, let alone know what was on the papers?

All of which is irrelevant anyway.  There is nothing in the Quran that forbids the burning of a copy of the Quran, whether deliberately or accidentally.  In fact as I understand it this is the proper way to dispose of them.  And even if she deliberately burned the Quran, with the conscious intent to insult Islam, so what???  Is your religion so lacking in self-confidence that you even need to care what a Christian thinks?

If you really want to know where "hate feelings" come from, I can tell you.  They come from angry mobs who attack Christian girls for imaginary crimes -- and from apologists who defend such horrors.  And yes, this is damaging to Islam.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 21 August 2012 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

There is nothing in the Quran that forbids the burning of a copy of the Quran, whether deliberately or accidentally.  In fact as I understand it this is the proper way to dispose of them. 

And even if she deliberately burned the Quran, with the conscious intent to insult Islam, so what??? 

If you really want to know where "hate feelings" come from, I can tell you.  They come from angry mobs who attack Christian girls for imaginary crimes -- and from apologists who defend such horrors.  And yes, this is damaging to Islam.

 
Good points Ron.  I had forgotten that I had earlier researched and learned that the proper way to dispose of a Qur'an is by burning.
 
And yes, even if it is done as an insult... have not all God's people been insulted throughout history?  And hasn't all scripture said to be prepared for this?  Does God, all powerful, need us to take offense for Him?  Has He not the power to punish?
 
All these are simply excuses to hate... and hate is not from God.
Even the qur'an I believe says to return evil with good, not evil for evil.


Edited by Caringheart - 21 August 2012 at 5:28pm
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Quote nothing Replybullet Posted: 21 August 2012 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Is it really credible to believe that a twelve year old Christian girl would publicly burn the Quran in such a hostile neighbourhood?

Did not I cast a doubt from the beginning? Somebody else whoever they are has to be the driving force. My 13 yo does not think that way than why should she?

Is it even likely that she could read Arabic, let alone know what was on the papers?

Capable to read Arabic is still possible because just like Iran they use Arabic letters too, but I doubt she knows Arabic language.

Btw let see what else where this came from from the link you provided:

When, after sunset she was burning the copies of newspapers, collected from the garbage, a Muslim lady entered her house and started shouting that Ramsha is burning the papers from holy Quran.

By right the unidentified "muslim lady" is the source here, there was nobody else. Than the mob dutifully arrived executing her call. Whatever happen before or after is from her, as the deciding factor. If I were the police that "unidentified person" would be the person of interest before "she" disappeared. She in all sudden start shouting without even ask first? If she was a neighbor than there is no reason for a neighbor to do that. The Islamic injunction the next door neighbor is closer than distant family. Or, was she just someone who by accident was there and enter the house?

But this report which came from AHRC is not even certain, hopefully this is it though, because this is where we can see the culprit. The rest are just by product which they can be dealt separately. The rest irrelevant until they found the unidentified "muslim lady" above. So who was she?
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 21 August 2012 at 7:04pm
Sure, let's ignore the hundreds of thugs in the street howling for blood, and the thousands who cheer them on.  Let's forget about the alarming number of fundamentalists in Pakistan who support this evil blasphemy law, and the hypocrites who use it to oppress minorities for their own profit.  Most of all, pay no attention to the millions of Muslims around the world who turn a blind eye to the corruption within their own religion and the atrocities committed in their name, choosing instead to talk about the "hate feelings" of non-Muslims.  No, let's just focus on this one "muslim lady"... Ermm

Edited by Ron Webb - 21 August 2012 at 7:07pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2012 at 9:05pm
The Muslim discussion on another forum has a very different tone than the Muslim tone here.

I would also share this article relative to what is happening in the Muslim world today.
Wafa Sultan is a Syrian-born psychiatrist who immigrated to the U.S. in 1989. She is most well-known for appearing on Al-Jazeera in 2006 in a debate with sheikh Ibrahim Al-Khouli, when she delivered a memorable attack on Islam (which has since caused her to live in hiding). She just released a new book, entitled A God Who Hates. On October 20, Dr. Sultan addressed the Middle East Forum via conference call.
Islam is intrinsically destructive—that is Dr. Sultan's message. She began by discussing how she came about this conclusion, which is the story of her largely autobiographical book.
In her view, the Muslim world needs reform in three areas: Muslim nations must 1) grant their citizens the right to practice any—or no—faith; 2) they must reform school curricula, which currently teach intolerance and hatred for non-Muslims; 3) they must grant equal rights to women and eliminate the oppression Muslim women currently experience.
 while she accepts that there are "moderate Muslims," she insists that Islam itself is not and cannot be moderate. Still, she hopes that those who are trying to reform Islam will one day prove her wrong.
Muslims will sooner or later have to confront the reality of Islam's "cruel" and "backwards" teachings.
She concluded by asserting her dream—that one day her native Syria will be as free as the United States.
Full article here:
http://www.meforum.org/2488/the-muslim-world-needs-reform


Edited by Caringheart - 22 August 2012 at 9:13pm
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2012 at 7:37am
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2012 at 5:34pm
Ad hominem
 
Tongue
 
My own reaction to Wafa Sultan is that she is her own worst enemy.  She opposes violence and extremism, but then proceeds to declare that the extremists are correct in their interpretation of Islam, and the moderates are wrong!  Whose side is she on, anyway?  Does she really want to convince the moderates that the only way to be a true Muslim is to become an extremist?
 
IMHO she is probably right if you include the hadith and sunna as eternal commandments from God, but as I said recently I don't believe that was ever Muhammad's intention.  Muhammad was a secular leader and a man of his time, which was a violent time indeed; but Muhammad made it quite clear that he did not want his own words and deeds to be written down and kept alongside the Quran.
 
The hadith and sunna were supposed to fade with time and become increasingly irrelevant, as do all things secular.  Instead, almost from the beginning Muslims have sought to treat them as coming from the same timeless source as the Quran, and thus have made Muhammad's authority of the same nature as Allah's.  In short, they have commited shirk.  That's how I see it.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2012 at 7:08pm
 
Ok, ten minutes into this and I am already irritated. 
 
My crtique: 
This is clearly not an unbiased discourse or source of information but very slanted.
 
While both speakers have valid points, the host... who is supposed to be an unbiased arbiter, is clearly not unbiased and continually attacks, and cuts off Wafa when she is speaking and directs the thrust of the conversation back to Ibrahim... two against one instead of letting the two share each their own veiwpoint.
 
The point Wafa tries to make is the same one that always gets me...
If Muslims can see how wrong the Christian crusades were, then why do they not see how wrong it is for them to take that same course?
Why are the Christian crusades constantly brought up?  Nowhere in the Christian scriptures was anyone ever instructed to force people to accept the message of Christ.  Nowhere in the Judeo-Christian scriptures is there a message of world domination.  That is the point Wafa is trying to get across to people.  There is an extreme difference in the message and not just in the way it is applied.  Basically she is saying that the "moderate Muslim" can not exist because the moderate Muslim would not be one who is following what the Qur'an truly says... therefore not a Muslim at all.
 
My fair judgement as the discussion began was that it matters which 'Muslim' you are talking about.  Culture is a huge factor in how islam is practiced.
 
Ibrahim's view that the Islam he follows is "not an Islam that sees itself  exclusively as a revelation that can not co-exist with people of other faiths" ... is not the islam that is in the Qur'an.  That is the message that Wafa wants to get across.  She hopes against hope that Islam can be reformed, but like me, does not see how as long as the people who follow it truly believe that the Qur'an is the instruction of God, or allah. 
 
Ibrahim speaks very much as an American and a person who is used to freedom and he does not really think about what is in his scriptures... like most people.  So yes, the way he is used to practicing Islam is acceptable... but is it true Islam or an evolved form of the religion.  Wafa has stated that if the religion can reform itself then that would be good, but one would have to reject certain things in the Qur'an much the same way humans have evolved past the old testament dictates.
 
Wafa reiterates that she does not have a problem with Muslims... those who are used to practicing in freedom... it is Islam that she disagrees with.  Which I think is how most of the free world feels.  When freedom is allowed, being a Muslim is fine... it is different for a Muslim who does not live where there is freedom.  It is this that she does not want to see spread around the world.
 
Both men treat Wafa condescendingly.  Yet, she is the one who has lived it.  She is the one who has lived under Islamic rule and knows what was taught under that rule.  She is one who knows the real, full history of Muhammad without denial, because it is her history, of her country.  I find the attitude of the host very insulting.
 
... and just love the way blame is always thrown back at the west.
 
[Edit:  After reading others comments I don't know what to think.  Like I said, it is quite obviously not an unbiased site, so who can say what is true.  I still understand the points Wafa makes, just from reading the Qur'an, and the history of Muhammad from both sides, myself.  Like I always say, Do research... dig deeper, into many sources.  It is diffucult to get a handle on truth.]


Edited by Caringheart - 23 August 2012 at 7:30pm
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