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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES Post Reply Post New Topic
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2012 at 4:13am
Originally posted by Experiential

[/QUOTE]

Abu Loren this is all conspiracy theory

Not conspiracy theory but fact. The Council Nicea which was convened by the Roman Emperor Constantine in c AD325 decided to add and subtract words which suited them that will incorporate their pagan belief system into the new religion of Christianity. At that time, Christianity was a threat to the Roman Empire as many of the lands that it ruled were turning to the new religion and people were converting in droves. Their favorite past time of feeding these Christians were not working because the Christians were willingly surrendering and the Romans realised that pretty soon they will no people to rule in their Empire. This is the time when they decided to follow the Pauline doctrine and the true disciples of Jesus pbuh) were sidelined and ignored.

Muslims don’t know what is original or added later because your Quaran is confused about the Injil.

The Holy Qur'an is not confused about the Injil. The Holy Qur'an confirm that indeed the Injil was given to the Messiah Jesus (pbuh). It does not go into any detail about what it contained. Human beings changed it to suit themselves.

You and your Quaran appear confused because even your Quaran confirms the New Testament is from God, so why would God allow a corrupted truth ??

I and my Qur'an are not confused because as I said the Holy Qur'an only confirms that the Injil was given to Prophet Jesus (pbuh), it doesn't say what it contains. God didn't allow a corrupted truth man did.
You seem to be very confused.

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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2012 at 5:00am
Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. VS Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. Sorry. My bad. Clearly no contradiction.Time and place...Different times, different places... different point in the ministry of Jesus.
That's no excuse.

Mahdi. You only have a conspiracy theory with no proof.


MATTHEW 15
24 He answered, “I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel.”

Not,'i will first preach to jews then gentiles' or 'i was sent to the whole world but first to jews'. Jesus excluded everybody else.

Read and think about it. Being a devout servant of your lord, you would sooner grab on to any 'explanation' which seems to solve your problem. Your whole life would come undone if any aspect of christianity is proved false. But i feel it is better to know the truth no matter the consequences.Try not to be emotional and use logic, not only in this discussion, but also in any other. Would Jesus have made such a statement if he had been sent to save the whole world?
And this is not an islam/Qur'an vs. Christianity/Bible discussion so please try to stay on topic.
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2012 at 5:46am
Assalamu alaika Experiential.
 
It is nice to hear from you. I saw the picture of the ruined church and that one architect is going to make it habitable.
You said: Why is it so important to you whether Moses received the Torah in one meeting or not? Im not sure why that’s so important to you? Anyway if you read the life of Moses you will see he was in constant communication with God and received the Torah over a period of time.
Answer: Exodus 20 mentioned the Ten Commandments. Exodus 30 mentions the Command from the Lord of Abraham to Moses to cut two flat stones like the first one the Lord made for the writing of same commandments. This is mentioned in Qur'an 7:145. This is the written LAW. Then the aactual application of the law began after the selection of 12 people to spy the land to the death of Moses. Moses was not given any law to his people in Egypt. This what the Qur'an tells us.There was no law during the period of wandering in the desert! The Quraysh aware of that questioned G-d why he did not send the Qur'an in the manner sent to Messengers before him. Indeed there is difference bewteen the written and oral law - the latter probably is referred to their experience in the desert. This resembles the difference the Qur'an and the sunna of Muhammad. The Quran like the written law is fixed. The oral law like the hadith are variables. So, does this similarity make us fight each other supporting and empoweing dictators to rule in the Muslim world then to turn back accusing Muhammad of causing disquiet? 
You said: The contradictions between the Bible and Quaran  speak for themselves. The contradictions between the two are the stumbling block.
My Response: After the G-d of Abraham finished narrating to Muhammad Rasulullah the true story of the family of Imran leading to the birth of Maryam, He adroitly taught Muhammad to argue: You were not with them, when they cast lots with their pens as to which of them should be charged with the care of Maryam (Mary); nor were you with them when they disputed. (Q:3:44). I do not know if this information is given in the Injeel by Jesus son of Maryam. If it is in the Torah then it must be during the time of one of the Messengers sent before Jesus son of Maryam.  Now, if this is what we in this forum understand by contradiction, then Muhammad Rasulullah is not a party to such contradictions. As explained earlier, Muhamamd has direct contact with those who called themselves 'Christians' for a period of about 4 weeks in his 23 years of Apostleship. They came to him from Najran the 9th to get more information about jesus son of Maryam. They went back accepting his explanation. Note earlier on in Abyssinia the then Christian king negus said: The difference between what Muhammad and jeus brought is no biiger than this thin line. Therefore the contradiction is not with Muhammad but with those 'gimmicks'.
 
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2012 at 6:57am
Assalamu alaika Experiential.
You said: Indisputable ? The Quaran found in Sunna in Yemen in 1972 indicates the “revelation” Mohamad received was tampered with. Read the link.
 
My response: Thanks very much for the link. Tampering with the Qur'an involves Gabriel and all that is between him and the moment Muhammad received the message, but never with Muhammad. The link did not state that the Qur'nan was tampered with, but rather confirmed the true narration on how the Qur'an was collected. The Qur'an was composed into chapters during the time of Abubakar from the various materials on which it was written and from the memories of those who memorized it. These chapters were then composed intoone volume called the 'Mushaf' of Uthman. It was sent to various cities where the senior Sahabas (companions) lived for further scrutiny. All other volumes were burnt. The wisdom behind that cannot be disputed. The challenge of the authenticity of the contents of the Qur'an must be weighed and reflected in the challenge of Allah in Qur'an 4: Have they not considere the Qur'an? Had it been from other than allah, they would surely have found therein many contradictions. If you were to memorize the Qur'an and recite it with understanding, you will easily change, add and subtract, but still keeping its meaning. I have that experience from the example given in Wikipedia that made me never to recite the Qur'an during the Fajr prayer off head. There were few volumes of the Qur'an in circulation in the early period of Islam according to professor Azami. The wonders of the Qur'an is in its retention by children at the age of 5 years. The elderly always add and subrtract in reciting it according to meaning.
You said: I agree with you Friendship. There is some truth to what you say.
Response:; That truth is from Muhammad. I am only his messenger. It takes time to have a complete understanding of Muhammad.
You said: But I am not convinced the way of Mohamad is the correct way.
Response: I do not know the parameters you have considered. It is the physical world that directs one to reflect on Allah. Then one of its signs will certainly convince one of the Oneness of Allah. There are 84 such signs mentioned in the qur'an for mankind to choose analyse. Remember the song of the Children of Israel after the Exodus 15. Muhammad never stated that his way is the best. he challenged the then civilization in Qur'an 28:49, "The bring a Book from Allah which is a better guide than these two (the Book of Moses and Qur'an) that I may follow it, if you are truthful."
Well, experentially, you have to support the establishment of the Caliphate. That is where the way is.
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2012 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren





Greetings Abu Loren,

I was recently having a similar conversation on another forum regarding the creeds of the Catholic church.

The council of Nicea convened to discuss church doctrine and the creed which the church adhered to.  Prior to the meeting of the Nicene council, and the outcome of the Nicene creed, there was the Apostle's creed.  It is this creed that was changed and causes the split between the eastern and the western practices of faith in the church.  The Nicene creed is about the profession of faith in the Catholic church.  It had nothing to do with changing scripture.  Maybe this is where the confusion comes in for non-Christians.  This council would be more like meeting to discuss sunna or hadith... the interpretation of scripture.  300 bishops gathered at Nicea, there were 17 dissenters at first, and in the end only 3 dissenters to the interpretation of the scripture.  Seems pretty convincing to me.  So by a majority concensus the Nicene creed was adopted in place of the Apostle's creed.

The Nicene controversy was over Jesus being, "one in being with the Father".
The council convened due to a split occurring between east and west due to one Arius, who was considered a heretic and sought to teach a different thing from the church in Rome.
"Arius was an ascetic Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, of the church of Baucalis, and was of Libyan origins."
This difference in upbringing and distance of separation from the birthplace of the church, and the places where Jesus taught, makes a plausible explanation for his confusion and dissent... and also the later confusion of Muhammad.

Blessings to you,
Caringheart
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2012 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke



Read and think about it. Being a devout servant of your lord, you would sooner grab on to any 'explanation' which seems to solve your problem. Your whole life would come undone if any aspect of _______ is proved false. But i feel it is better to know the truth no matter the consequences.Try not to be emotional and use logic, not only in this discussion, but also in any other.


Greetings Mahdi,

I'm thinking I could give you the same advice.

and this;
"Would Jesus have made such a statement if he had been sent to save the whole world? "
So what then do you say about the gentiles?
What do you think is meant to happen to the gentiles?
How is it that they have come to God?  and are you saying it doesn't count?

Thanks,
Caringheart
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2012 at 12:02am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Abu Loren


Greetings Abu Loren,I was recently having a similar conversation on another forum regarding the creeds of the Catholic church.The council of Nicea convened to discuss church doctrine and the creed which the church adhered to.  Prior to the meeting of the Nicene council, and the outcome of the Nicene creed, there was the Apostle's creed.  It is this creed that was changed and causes the split between the eastern and the western practices of faith in the church.  The Nicene creed is about the profession of faith in the Catholic church.  It had nothing to do with changing scripture.  Maybe this is where the confusion comes in for non-Christians.  This council would be more like meeting to discuss sunna or hadith... the interpretation of scripture.  300 bishops gathered at Nicea, there were 17 dissenters at first, and in the end only 3 dissenters to the interpretation of the scripture.  Seems pretty convincing to me.  So by a majority concensus the Nicene creed was adopted in place of the Apostle's creed.The Nicene controversy was over Jesus being, "one in being with the Father".The council convened due to a split occurring between east and west due to one Arius, who was considered a heretic and sought to teach a different thing from the church in Rome.
"Arius was an ascetic Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, of the church of Baucalis, and was of Libyan origins."
This difference in upbringing and distance of separation from the birthplace of the church, and the places where Jesus taught, makes a plausible explanation for his confusion and dissent... and also the later confusion of Muhammad.Blessings to you,Caringheart


So you cannot see the conspiracy within what you have just wrote?

The true disciples of Jesus (pbuh) was sidelined for the Pauline doctrine.
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2012 at 12:12am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. VS Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. Sorry. My bad. Clearly no contradiction.Time and place...Different times, different places... different point in the ministry of Jesus. That's no excuse.

Mahdi. You only have a conspiracy theory with no proof.


MATTHEW 15
24 He answered, “I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel.”

Not,'i will first preach to jews then gentiles' or 'i was sent to the whole world but first to jews'. Jesus excluded everybody else.

Read and think about it. Being a devout servant of your lord, you would sooner grab on to any 'explanation' which seems to solve your problem. Your whole life would come undone if any aspect of christianity is proved false. But i feel it is better to know the truth no matter the consequences.Try not to be emotional and use logic, not only in this discussion, but also in any other. Would Jesus have made such a statement if he had been sent to save the whole world?
And this is not an islam/Qur'an vs. Christianity/Bible discussion so please try to stay on topic.
Matthew 24:14 - "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations,and then the end will come."
Matthew 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit.."
Mark 11:17 - "And as He taught them, He said, 'Is it not written: "My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations"? ...'" (Isaiah 56:7)
Mark 13:10 - "And the gospel must first be preached to all nations."
Mark 13:27 - "And He will send His angels and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."
Mark 16:15 - "He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.'"
Luke 2:31, 32 - "'which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for gloryto your people Israel.'"
Luke 3:6 - "And all mankind will see God's salvation."
Luke 24:47 - "..and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at
Jerusalem." and on earth and under the earth.
And your own Quaran –
Sura19:21 He said, "Thus said your Lord, 'It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.'"
Sura 21.91and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.
Sura 3:3  He has revealed upon you this Scripture with the Truth, confirming that which was before it; and He revealed the Tawrât and the Injîl,
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