Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 34 Next >>
Author Message
Experiential
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 23 November 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 311
Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 20 October 2012 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by
 
A zimmi has more right over a Muslim in an Islamic state. The only way is to follow the teaching of Muhammad.

[/QUOTE


 

Hello friendship. Can you please tell us how Z

 

Hello friendship. Can you please tell us how Zimmi have more rights than Muslims ?

IP IP Logged
Experiential
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 23 November 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 311
Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 20 October 2012 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Experiential.

You said: Why should I believe Mohamads version that came 6oo years after the eye witness New testament accounts?
Response. Let us not be impartial. Probably you do not believe in the Torah. Otherwise what is the period between Adam to Noah, Noah to Abraham, Abraham to Moses, Moses to Jesus etc. Understand that you do not believe in the Qur'an implying that you do not believe in anything Allah revealed to mankind. You do not believe that you are created from a male and female. This is our standard of belief.
What is the total number of those who believed in Jesus son of Maryam in his first, second and third year of preaching?
Let me take you back to your previous assertion that the red letter pronouncing text of the bible is gimmick. Then which is that part of the bible that is not gimmick?
You said: Yeah sure. And I know the Quran better than your Ayatollah !
Response:  I am responsible to myself and not any teacher in the Hereafter. There is no such terminology or phrase in the teaching of Allah. Ayatollah means the sign of Allah. If you know the Qur'an let me have a list of your books explaining the meaning of the Qur'an in sequence of production please. Start from the baseline.
You said:
Friendship. What qualifies you to know what should be in the New testament? The New Testament we currently have is the same Injil Mohamed had?

Anyway if you believe that The New Testament should only consist of only what was revealed to Jesus son of Maryam conforming to what was revealed to Moses and what was allowed in his time as an extension of the oral law, then you will see that Jesus was the Messiah that gave his life for the salvation of humanity.

Response: Commonsense rejects your claim. In the first instance there is no clear certified record of the numbers of years Jesus son of Maryam spent preaching. His experience is just limited. Secondly he was confined to a few kilometers of tribal and regional influence. His power of convincing is no longer an absolute entity - the miracles of healing i.e medical practice. This is unlike the Majestic Qur'an with an open challenge to mankind to produce its like and its meaning will never be encircled by human beings. The more you read the more you understand and it is never boring. I do not like to go into details but the story of Abraham in the Torah and its explanation by the rabbis never proved that Jesus was the messiah. It points plainly to the progeny of Ishmael.

How can something be lasting that is limited in its application? Do you know that Muhammad said: You should switch off you lighting points when you are going to sleep?  What is wrong in Muhammad disapproving the manufacture of arms?  What is wrong in Muhammad giving stipends to those in need?

Take my advice please- stop reading the whole of the Qur'an for it will mislead you. Read only a portion to convince you of the existence of only one G-d
and then switch to reading the life of Muhammad and his immediate Sahabas.
 
Friendship.


Friendship Said

Commonsense rejects your claim. In the first instance there is no clear certified record of the numbers of years Jesus son of Maryam spent preaching. His experience is just limited. Secondly he was confined to a few kilometers of tribal and regional influence. His power of convincing is no longer an absolute entity - the miracles of healing i.e medical practice.

My Reply

Mohamads experience is just limited. Secondly Mohamad was confined to a few kilometers of tribal and regional influence. Unlike Jesus where after the Resurrection, his spiritual influence and power has extended to the whole world.

 

 

Friendship Said

I do not like to go into details but the story of Abraham in the Torah and its explanation by the rabbis never proved that Jesus was the messiah. It points plainly to the progeny of Ishmael.

My Reply

You are wrong about the Torah pointing to the progeny of Ishmael. Here is the Torah –

 

Gen 17:18 -21

 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"

Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."

 

 

Friendship Said

How can something be lasting that is limited in its application? Do you know that Muhammad said: You should switch off you lighting points when you are going to sleep?  What is wrong in Muhammad disapproving the manufacture of arms?  What is wrong in Muhammad giving stipends to those in need?

Take my advice please- stop reading the whole of the Qur'an for it will mislead you. Read only a portion to convince you of the existence of only one G-d and then switch to reading the life of Muhammad and his immediate Sahabas.

My Reply

Firstly Christians also believe in ONE God. Secondly if the Quaran is that difficult how can it be the word of God? And thirdly the Hadiths are more inaccurate more than the Quran and have been manipulated by man.

 

 

IP IP Logged
Experiential
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 23 November 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 311
Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 20 October 2012 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Larry


As I said before, simply reading the Qur'an's variant "teachings" on how Muslims should see and treat the other "Peoples of the Book" leads me to the inescapable conclusion that there is great and glaring discrepancy in these "teachings." That may not matter to you but I think it is illustrative of the contrary nature of many of the statements contained in the Qur'an.


Give me an example of a contradiction in the Holy Qur'an.

Originally posted by Larry


In Christianity and Judaism, we do not "pick and choose" which Biblical stories we will "accept" or "not accept" based on our own cultural preferences, as in Islam. There is no alcohol consumption allowed in the Qur'an, but, according to the Qur'an, there is wine to drink in heaven. Just another discrepancy in the teachings of the Qur'an. In Christianity and Judaism, sin in this world is not converted into virtue in the next.


I've now just lost all respect, if any, I had for you Larry. Muslims do not pick and choose neither from the Holy Qur'an but we accept all of it as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

As for the wine in heaven, if you read the Holy Qur'an properly you would know that the wine is not intoxicating.

Sahih International

They will exchange with one another a cup [of wine] wherein [results] no ill speech or commission of sin.
52:23

There will be circulated among them a cup [of wine] from a flowing spring,
White and delicious to the drinkers;
No bad effect is there in it, nor from it will they be intoxicated.No bad effect is there in it, nor from it will they be intoxicated.
37:45-47

Originally posted by Larry


   In Christianity and Judaism we do not need Biblical truths to be "driven into our brains" to understand them. The Bible is written in a clear and linear form, easily understandable and in a coherent form that goes from earliest to latest. I found the structure of the Qur'an to be completely arbitrary and incoherent in form, something I wouldn't expect of a book that comes directly from the mind of God.


Indeed, you know God and how He should communicate with us and in what way.

Originally posted by Larry


No, it is not. Your absurd statements that "Ibrahim and Is'mail" established the religion of the One True God in Mecca shows how far Islam has to contort itself to fit into the structure of the Biblical narratives. There is NO evidence that monotheism began in Mecca, then disappeared into idolatry, then "returned" to it's "original" form via Muhammad's "revelations." One of the proofs that Islam has a pagan past is precisely shown in the Islamic "reverence" for the former idol, the "Black Stone," the only pre-Islamic idol that was not destroyed by Muhammad. An idol is an idol, no matter how much you pretend that it isn't, and should not be treated as something "special." The pagans believed the stone "came from heaven" and was "special" also, that is why it was WORSHIPPED" at the Kaaba. The Muslims feel their "stone" is so "special" that they built it into the very wall of the supposedly original HOUSE OF GOD in Mecca. I would say that that would indeed make it "special" in the eyes of Muslims. So much for shirk.


Sahih International

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham said, "My Lord, make this city [Makkah] secure and keep me and my sons away from worshipping idols. 14:35

Our Lord, I have settled some of my descendants in an uncultivated valley near Your sacred House, our Lord, that they may establish prayer. So make hearts among the people incline toward them and provide for them from the fruits that they might be grateful. 14:37

With regard to the black stone I've already told you that it existed before the Ka'baa was used to store the idols and Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) destroyed all the idols when he took control of the Ka'baa. The black stone was kept not for people to worship or adore it but simply as a reminder that it came from heaven. As I've said before Larry anything that originated in heaven must be good, right?

Originally posted by Larry


I do not have "intense hatred" towards Muslims and Islam, I simply do not believe that Islam is a legitimate "continuation" of the Biblical narrative. I do not believe that Allah is the same God that Christians and Jews worship. I have read the Qur'an with an "open mind" and still found it confusing, chaotic and unstructured in it's form and contents. And I especially do not believe that Muhammad was a real prophet of God, let alone the "seal of the prophets." In the Bible there are hundreds of specific prophecies in the Old Testament that are fulfilled in the New Testament, this is the Biblical definition of a "prophet" or "prophecy." Muhammad makes NO real prophecies in the Qur'an at all, so I am at a loss to understand WHY Muslims consider Muhammad a "prophet" at all.


It's good that you don't hate Muslims and Islam as a whole, there may be a twinkling of a chance for you.

Larry there is only One God and how can you say that the Muslims worship a different God?
Once again i'm sorry that the structure of the Holy Qur'an is not to your liking, the good news is Larry you can ask God Almighty yourself on the Day of Judgement why it wasn't written specifically for you. :)

To understand Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and his prophecies you have read his hadiths. So many prophecies are there.

Originally posted by Larry


I like the person that I am now, thanks anyway.


That's good Larry. However, your salvation depends on accepting and believing in the Final Revelation given to mankind by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala through his final prophet and messenger Muhammed (pbuh).

 

Abu Loren Said

Give me an example of a contradiction in the Holy Qur'an.

My Reply

There are many contradictions in the Quran. For example –

 

Who Was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]?

 

Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51].

 

Were Warners Sent to All Mankind Before Muhammad? Allah had supposedly sent warners to every people [10:47, 16:35-36, 35:24],

 

Abraham and Ishmael are specifically claimed to have visited Mecca and built the Kaaba [2:125-129]. Yet, Muhammad supposedly is sent to a people who never had a messenger before [28:46, 32:3, 34:44, 36:2-6].

This raises other issues: What about Hud and Salih who supposedly were sent to the Arabs? What about the Book that was supposedly given to Ishmael? Etc.

 

What will be the food for the people in Hell? The food for the people in Hell will be only "Dhari" [Sura 88:6], or only foul pus from the washing of wounds [S. 69:36], or will they also get to eat from the tree of Zaqqum [S. 37:66]? Together, these verses constitute three contradictions.

 

Can Angels Cause the Death of People? The Qur'an attacks those who worship anyone besides God (e.g. angels or prophets) because those can neither create, nor give life, nor cause anyone to die. Yet, the Qur'an explicitly states that one angel or several angels are causing certain people to die [Sura 4:97, 16:28, 32, 32:11].

 

To Marry or Not to Marry? The Qur'an forbids believers to marry idolatrous women [Sura 2:221], and calls Christians idolaters and unbelievers [9:28-33], but still allows Muslims to marry Christian women [5:5]. Will it be accepted of them or not?

 

Will Allah reward the good deeds of Unbelievers? S. 9:17 and 9:69 clearly say no. However, S. 99:7 implies yes. Moreover, S. 2:62 promises Christians reward for their good deeds. But S. 9:28-33; 5:17, 72-73 calls Christians idolaters, and S. 9:17 is very clear that idolaters will have no reward.

 

Should Muslims show kindness to their parents? On the one hand, the Quran commands all Muslims to show kindness to their parents, even if they are disbelievers [17:23-24, 31:14-15, 29:8, etc.]. On the other hand, it demands not to show any love or friendship to those who oppose Muhammad, even if they are their parents [9:23, 58:22].

 

How many mothers does a Muslim have? Only one [58:2, the woman who gave birth and none else], or two [4:23, including the mother who nursed him], or at least ten [33:6]?

 

Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.

 

How many angels were talking to Mary? When the Qur'an speaks about the announciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21.

 

Further numerical discrepancies –

Does Allah's day equal to 1,000 human years (Sura 22:47, 32:5) or 50,000 human years (Sura 70:4)? --- According to Sura 56:7 there will be THREE distinct groups of people at the Last Judgement, but 90:18-19, 99:6-8, etc. mention only TWO groups. --- There are conflicting views on who takes the souls at death: THE Angel of Death [32:11], THE angels (plural) [47:27] but also "It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death." [39:42] Angels have 2, 3, or 4 pairs of wings [35:1]; but Gabriel had 600 wings.

 

How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad? One day [54:19] or several days [41:16; 69:6,7]

 

Six or eight days of creation? Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days.

 

Quick or Slow Creation? Allah creates the heavens and the earth in six days [7:54] and many Muslims want to be modern and scientific, and make that six eons, but then again, He creates instantaneously [2:117], "Be! And it is".

Heavens or Earth? Which was created first? First earth and then heaven [2:29], heaven and after that earth [79:27-30].

 

Calling together or ripping apart? In the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together [41:11], while 21:30 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.

 

What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]

 

Examining the inherent problems with the descent of the Quran

Is half the Quran already fully detailed? Fully Detailed Or Incomplete? The Qur'an claims for itself to be (fully) detailed, that nothing is left out of the book [6:38, 6:114, 12:111, 16:89 etc.]. However there are plenty of important issues which are left unclear in the Qur'an.

 

To Intercede or Not To Intercede? - That is the Question! The Qur'an makes contradictory statements whether on the Day of Judgment intercession will be possible. No: [2:122-123, 254; 6:51; 82:18-19; etc.]. Yes: [20:109; 34:23; 43:86; 53:26; etc.]. Each position can be further supported by ahadith.

 

How the Islamic Doctrine of Intercession undermines Allah's Omniscience

Where is Allah and his throne? Allah is nearer than the jugular vein [50:16], but he is also on the throne [57:4] which is upon the water [11:7], and at the same time so far away, that it takes between 1,000 and 50,000 years to reach him [32:5, 70:4].

 

The origin of calamity? Is the evil in our life from Satan [38:41], Ourselves [4:79], or Allah [4:78]?

 

How merciful is Allah's mercy? He has prescribed mercy for himself [6:12], yet he does not guide some, even though he could [6:35, 14:4].

 

Does Allah command to do evil? No [7:28, 16:90]. Yes [17:16, ]. Two examples are also given, where Allah clearly commanded or permitted indecent actions [2:229-230, 2:187].

 

Should Muhammad Get Paid Or Shouldn’t He?

 

A Contradiction Regarding Muhammad's Fatherhood

 

Will there be inquiry in Paradise? "neither will they question one another" [23:101] but nevertheless they will be "engaging in mutual inquiry" [52:25], "and they will ... question one another" [37:27].

 

Are angels protectors? "NO protector besides Allah" [2:107, 29:22]. But in Sura 41:31 the angels themselves say: "We are your protectors in this life and the Hereafter." And also in other suras is their role described as guarding [13:11, 50:17-18] and protecting [82:10].

 

Is Allah the only Wali? On the one hand, Allah is supposedly the only wali (protector, helper, friend) [9:116, 17:111, 32:4, 42:28], on the other hand, the messenger and the believers are walis [5:55, 9:71], Allah has walis [10:62], and he raises walis [4:75].

 

Does Allah Act Alone Or Does He Have Partners That Assist Him?

 

Is Allah the Only Judge or Not?

 

Is Allah the only sovereign or isn’t he?

 

Are all obedient and prostrating to Allah? That is the claim in 16:49 and 30:26, but dozens of verses speak of the proud disobedience of Satan [7:11, 15:28-31, 17:61, 20:116, 38:71-74, 18:50] as well of many different human beings who reject His commands and His revelations.

 

Does Allah forgive shirk? Shirk is considered the worst of all sins, but the author of the Qur'an seems unable to decide if Allah will ever forgive it or not. No [4:48, 116], Yes [4:153, 25:68-71].

 

Abraham committed this sin of polytheism as he takes moon, sun, stars to be his Lord [6:76-78], yet Muslims believe that all prophets are without any sin.

 

Abraham and the Sun

 

Abraham's Monotheism

 

Abraham's Progeny? How the Qur'an messed up Abraham's family tree

Did All Prophets Receive the Same Book?

 

The event of worship of the golden calf: The Israelites repented about worshipping the golden calf BEFORE Moses returned from the mountain [7:149], yet they refused to repent but rather continued to worship the calf until Moses came back [20:91]. Does Aaron share in their guilt? No [20:85-90], yes [20:92, 7:151].

 

Was Jonah cast on the desert shore or was he not? "Then We cast him on a desert shore while he was sick" [37:145] "Had not Grace from his Lord reached him, he would indeed have been cast off on the naked shore while he was reprobate." [68:49]

 

Moses and the Injil? Jesus is born more than 1,000 years after Moses, but in 7:157 Allah speaks to Moses about what is written in the Injil [the book given to Jesus].

 

Can slander of chaste women be forgiven? Yes [24:5], No [24:23].

How do we receive the record on Judgment Day? On Judgement day the lost people are given the Record (of their bad deeds): Behind their back [84:10], or in their left hand [69:25].

 

Can angels disobey? No angel is arrogant, they all obey Allah [16:49-50], but: "And behold, we said to the ANGELS: 'Bow down to Adam'. And THEY bowed down, EXCEPT Iblis. He refused and was haughty." [2:34].

 

How many wings does an angel have? Angels have 2, 3, or 4 wings [35:1]; but Gabriel had 600 wings according to Sahih al-Bukhari.

 

Is Satan an angel or a jinn?

 

Three contradictions in 2:97 and 16:101-103 Who brings the revelation from Allah to Muhammad? The ANGEL Gabriel [2:97], or the Holy Spirit [16:102]? The new revelation confirms the old [2:97] or substitutes it [16:101]?

 

The Qur'an is PURE Arabic [16:103] but there are numerous foreign, non-Arabic words in it.

 

Do not say, "Three"!? It is impossible to recite Sura 4:171 without transgressing the command contained in it.

 

The infinite loop problem Sura 26:192,195,196: "It (the Qur'an) is indeed a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds, ... in clear Arabic speech and indeed IT (the Qur'an) is in the writings of the earlier (prophets)." Now, the 'earlier writings' are the Torah and the Injil for example, written in Hebrew and Greek. HOW can an ARABIC Qur'an be contained in books of other languages? Furthermore, it would have to contain this very passage of the Qur'an since the Qur'an is properly contained in them. Hence these earlier writings have to be contained in yet other earlier writings and we are in an infinite loop, which is absurd.

 

Is the Torah like the Qur'an, or is it not? The Muslim claim of the corruption of the Bible leads to a contradiction between S. 2:24 and 17:88 on the one hand, and 28:49 and 46:10 on the other.

 

Should Jews and Christians follow the Bible or the Quran?

 

"An old woman" and God's character. About the story of Lot: "So we delivered him and his family, - all exept an old woman who lingered behind." [Sura 26:170-171] And again: "But we saved him and his family, exept his wife: she was of those who lagged behind. [Sura 7:83]. Either this is a contradiction or if indeed Lot's wife is derogatorily called "an old woman" then this does not show much respect for her as a wife of a prophet.

 

 

More problems with the story of Lot "And his people gave NO answer but this: They said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" [Sura 7:82 & 27:56]. Yet: "But his people gave NO answer but this: They said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." [Sura 29:29]. Obviously these answers are different.

 

The "pleasure" of Allah? Is God's action of punishment or mercy and guidance or misguidance arbitrary?

 

Did Abraham smash the idols? The accounts of Abraham, Suras 19:41-49, 6:74-83 differ quite a bit from Sura 21:51-59. While in Sura 21 Abraham confronts his people strongly, and even destroys the idols, in Sura 19 Abraham shuts up after his father threatens him to stone him for speaking out against the idols. And he seems not only to become silent, but even to leave the area ("turning away from them all").

 

What about Noah's son? According to Sura 21:76, Noah and his family is saved from the flood, and Sura 37:77 confirms that his seed survived. But Sura 11:42-43 reports that Noah's son drowns.

 

Was Noah driven out? "Before them *the people of Noah* rejected (their messenger): They rejected Our servant and said, 'Here is One possessed!' And he was driven out." [Sura 54:9] Now, if he is driven out [expelled from their country] how come they can scoff at him while he is building the ark since we read "Forthwith he (starts) constructing the Ark: Every time that the Chiefs of *his people* passed by him, they threw ridicule on him." [Sura 11:38] He cannot be both: Driven out and near enough that they can regularly pass by.

 

Pharaoh's Magicians: Muslims or Rejectors of Faith? Did the Magicians of Pharaoh, Egyptians, become believers in the God of Moses [7:103-126; 20:56-73; S. 26:29-51] or did only Israelites believe in Moses [10:83]?

 

How many gods did the Egyptians worship?

 

Pharaoh's repentance in the face of death? According to Sura 10:90-92, Pharaoh repented "in the sight of death" and was saved. But Sura 4:18 says that such a thing can't happen.

 

Abrogation? "The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice; there is NONE who can change His words." [Sura 6:115] Also see 6:34 and 10:64. But then Allah (Muhammad?) sees the need to exchange some of them for "better ones" [Sura 2:106, 16:101]. And it is not for ignorant people to question Allah because of such practices!

 

Guiding to truth? "Say: 'God - He guides to the truth; and which is worthier to be followed ...?" [Sura 10:35] But how much is left over of this worthiness when we also read: "Allah leads astray whom he pleases, and he guides whom He pleases, ..." [Sura 14:4]. And how do we know in which of Allah's categories of pleasure we fall? How sure can a Muslim be that he is one of those guided right and not one of those led astray?

 

What is the punishment for adultery? Flogging with a 100 stripes (men and women) [24:2], "confine them to houses until death do claim them (lifelong house arrest - for the women) [4:15]. For men: "If they repent and amend, leave them alone" [4:16]. 24:2 contradicts both the procedure for women and men in Sura 4. And why is the punishment for women and men equal in Sura 24 but different in Sura 4?

 

How are the sexually immoral supposed to be punished?

 

The Problem of Divine Sovereignty, Predestination, Salvation and Human Free Will.

 

Who suffers the consequence of sins? The Qur'an declares that everyone will be held responsible only for his own sins [S. 17:13-15, 53:38-42]. Yet, the Qur'an accuses the Jews of Muhammad's day for the sins committed some 2000 years earlier by other Jews, e.g. worshipping the Golden Calf idol.

 

Will Christians enter Paradise or go to Hell? Sura 2:62 and 5:69 say "Yes", Sura 5:72 (just 3 verses later) and 3:85 say "No".

 

God alone or also men? Clear or incomprehensible? The Qur'an is "clear Arabic speech." [16:103] Yet "NONE knows its interpretation, save only Allah." [3:7]. Actually, "men of understanding do grasp it." [3:7]

 

Was Pharaoh Drowned or Saved when chasing Moses and the Israelites? Saved [10:92], drowned [28:40, 17:103, 43:55].

 

When Commanded Pharaoh the Killing of the Sons? When Moses was a Prophet and spoke God's truth to Pharaoh [40:23-25] or when he was still an infant [20:38-39]?

 

When/how are the fates determined? "The night of power is better than a thousand months. The angels and spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." [97:3,4] "Lo! We revealed it on a blessed night." [44:3] To Muslims, the "Night of Power" is a blessed night on which fates are settled and on which everything relating to life, death, etc., which occurs throughout the year is decreed. It is said to be the night on which Allah's decrees for the year are brought down to the earthly plane. In other words, matters of creation are decreed a year at a time. Contradicting this, Sura 57:22 says, "No affliction befalls in the earth or in your selves, but it is in a Book before we create it." This means it is written in the Preserved Tablet, being totally fixed in Allah's knowledge before anyone was created. All of the above is contradicted by "And every man's fate We have fastened to his own neck." This says that man alone is responsible for what he does and what happens to him. [17:13]

 

Wine: Good or bad? Strong drink and ... are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. [5:90, also 2:219]. Yet on the other hand in Paradise are rivers of wine [47:15,

 

also 83:22,25]. How does Satan's handiwork get into Paradise?

Good News of Painful Torture? Obviously, announcing torment and suffering to anyone is bad news, not good news. However, the Qur'an announces the good news of painful torment [3:21, 4:138, 9:3, 9:34, 31:7, 45:8, and 84:24].

 

Jinns and men created for worship or for Hell? Created only to serve God [Sura 51:56], many of them made for Hell [Sura 7:179].

 

Preferred for Hell? S. 17:70 says that Allah prefers (all) the children of Adam over many of his creatures, but S. 98:6 declares the majority of men to be the worst of creatures, many of them being even created specifically for Hell (S. 7:179).

 

Will people stay in Hell forever, or not?

 

Will all Muslims go to Hell? According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell (for at least some time), while another passage states that those who die in Jihad will go to Paradise immediately.

 

Will Allah disgrace Muslims? On the day of judgment Allah will not humiliate or disgrace the Prophet and those who believe in him [S. 66:8]. However, 19:71 says that everyone will enter Hell, and 3:192 states that whomsoever Allah sends to Hell, is disgraced thereby.

 

Will Jesus burn in Hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [Sura 4:158], near stationed with him [Sura 3:45], worshiped by millions of Christians, yet Sura 21:98 says, that all that are worshiped by men besides Allah will burn in Hell together with those who worship them.

 

Is Jesus God or Not? In Sura 16:17, 20-21 and S. 25:3 we find a criterion to distinguish the true God from false gods. Yet, according to S. 3:49, 55, 4:157-158, 5:110, 6:2, and 38:71-72 Jesus satisfies the definition and should be considered true Deity.

 

Is Jesus Like Adam? S. 3:59 makes this claim, but how many aspects of likeness are there really?

 

Can there be a son without a consort? Allah cannot have a son without a consort [Sura 6:101], but Mary can have a son without a consort because that is easy for Allah [Sura 19:21].

 

Who is the father of Jesus? A more involved argument that is difficult to summarize in one sentence.

 

Begetting and Self-sufficiency A self-contradiction on account of confused terminology.

 

Could Allah have a son? Sura 39:4 affirms and Sura 6:101 denies this possibility.

Did Jesus Die already? Sura 3:144 states that all messengers died before Muhammad. But 4:158 claims that Jesus was raised to God (alive?).

 

One Creator or many? The Qur'an uses twice the phrase that Allah is "the best of creators" [23:14, 37:125]. What other creators are in mind? On the other hand, many verses make clear that Allah alone is "the creator of all things" [e.g. 39:62]. There is nothing left for others to be a creator of.

 

From among all nations or from Abraham's seed? Sura 29:27 states that all prophets came Abraham's seed. But 16:36 claims that Allah raised messengers from among every people.

 

Marrying the wives of adopted sons? It is important that Muslims can marry the divorced wives of adopted sons [Sura 33:37], yet it is forbidden to adopt sons [Sura 33:4-5].

 

Messengers were never sent to other than their own people? So it is claimed in Sura 14:4 and 30:47. However, the Bible and the Qur'an, and the Muslim traditions confirm that Jonah was sent to a different nation.

 

Messengers Were Sent Only to Their Own People? Sura 14:4 states that never was a messenger sent except in the language of his own people. Yet, the Quran itself claims that Jesus is supposed to be a sign to all people, that the Torah and Gospel are for all people, that Moses was sent to Pharaoh of Egypt, and that Muhammad is sent to all of mankind. The hadith also claim that Noah was sent to "the inhabitants of the earth".

 

Did Allah give a Greek Injil to the Jews?

 

What kind of book is the Injil?

 

Messengers Amongst the Jinns and Angels? Allah sent only men as messengers [Suras 12:109, 21:7-8, 25:20-21] but there seemingly are messengers from Jinns and Angels [6:130; 11:69,77; 22:75; etc.,].

 

Do all of God's messengers eat food?

 

A Messenger from among the beasts? Allah sent only men as messengers [Suras 12:109, 21:7-8, 25:20-21]. Yet, the Qur'an also speaks about a beast that is a messenger from Allah to men [S. 27:82].

 

Is Muhammad Only A Warner or a Prophet/Messenger?

 

Did the Messengers Perform Miracles?

 

Divinely Inspired Ignorance?

 

Which Prophets Did the Jews Kill?

 

Grammatical Errors

Muslims believe that since the Qur'an is the Word of God, it is without error in all areas.

 

The style and literary qualities of the Qur'an are found it to be defective.

 

Yet, even more troubling are the grammatical mistakes which exist within its text. Can we expect an omnipotent and omniscient God to allow such deficiencies to creep into his supposedly 'perfect' and eternal revelation? Consider the following:

In sura 2:177, the word Sabireen should be Sabiroon because of its position in the sentence (since it is a human plural, it should remain in the masculine plural form?).

 

In sura 7:160, the phrase "We divided them into twelve tribes," is written in the feminine plural: Uthnati Ashrat Asbaataan. Due to the fact that it refers to a number of people, it should be written in the masculine plural form: Uthaiy Ashara Sibtaan, as all human plurals are automatically male in Arabic.

 

In sura 4:162, the phrase "And (especially) those who establish regular prayer..." is written as al Muqiyhina al salaat, which again is in the feminine plural form, instead of the masculine plural: al Muqiyhuna al salaat (?). It is important to note that the two following phrases, "(those who) practice regular charity, and (those who) believe in Allah..." are both correctly written in the masculine human plural form.

 

In sura 5:69, the title al Sabioon, referring to the Sabians, should be written al Sabieen.

 

In sura 63:10, the phrase "I shall be" is written akun (which is in the 3rd person?). Yet since this word refers to the future (& is in the 1st person) it should be written akunu.

 

In sura 3:59, the words Kun feekunu should be written, Kun fakaana.

 

There are other grammatical errors which exist in the Qur'an as well, such as: suras 2:192; 13:28; 20:66 and the duals which replace the plurals in sura 55.

 

Abu Loren Said

It's good that you don't hate Muslims and Islam as a whole, there may be a twinkling of a chance for you.

Larry there is only One God and how can you say that the Muslims worship a different God?

Once again i'm sorry that the structure of the Holy Qur'an is not to your liking, the good news is Larry you can ask God Almighty yourself on the Day of Judgement why it wasn't written specifically for you. :)

To understand Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and his prophecies you have read his hadiths. So many prophecies are there.

My Reply

Abu Loren. The Hadiths are more unreliable than the Quran and manipulated by man.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

That's good Larry. However, your salvation depends on accepting and believing in the Final Revelation given to mankind by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala through his final prophet and messenger Muhammed (pbuh).

My Reply

Abu Loren on The Last Day questions will be asked of you by Jesus-

Your good religious behavior can never be enough for a Holy God. How are the scales of sin in your life? Jesus offers mercy to you.

Are you prepared to pray that God will reveal truth to you and would you accept it even if it does not fit with your Islamic religious traditions?

 

God exalted him (Jesus) to the highest place

    and gave him the name that is above every name,

 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,

    to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2.9-11

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IP IP Logged
Experiential
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 23 November 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 311
Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 21 October 2012 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply
In regards to the Old Covenant (Mosaic law) and the New Covenant the prophet Jeremiah talks about the New Covenant –

“But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. “Jeremiah 31:33


To say Jesus was a Muslim is ridiculous. How could he be a Muslim when he was born 600 years before the new religion of Mohammad. And don’t try playing with word meanings that it was because he was “submitted” to God. That’s just word games and twisting meaning.
Beside the Quran contradicts itself as to who was the first Muslim. Was it Moses? Was it other believers at the time of Moses? Was it pharaohs magicians? was it Mohammad? Was it Noah ? or was it Adam ?


Regarding Jeremiah 31:33 it does not say when the new Covenant will be established, it is not specific. Whatever the Covenant the Children of Israel established with God is now null and void because the Children of Israel broke that Covenant. For a covenant to be binding one or both of the parties must adhere to the Covenant and not break it.
With regard to your quotes from the New Testament they cannot be accepted because we don’t really know what is real and what is added.
You STILL do not know the meaning of the word MUSLIM. Let me explain it to you once more, a Muslim is a person who has submitted his being to the One True God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala. Therefore, from Adam (pbuh) to Jesus (pbuh) to Muhammed (pbuh) were all Muslims. Also include Abraham, Moses and all the prophets of God.

Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply
Mohammad did not understand the Jewish foundation that Christianity is based on. How could Ishmael be a Muslim before the new religion of Mohammad. And Ishmael was of the line of Hagar, the slave woman, not of the free woman Sarah and Gods blessing and promise to Isaac. As a result he brings a slave religion and not the heritage to ever lasting life.


Mohammed did not need to understand anything but was revealed to him by God Almighty. You keep thinking wrongly that Muslims just came on the scene when Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was given prophethood. Keep thinking like that and you will never understand anything. It’s true that Hagar was a slave woman but she was beloved of Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and she gave him his first born son Prophet Ishmael (pbuh). You, like the writers of the Bible seem to demonise Hagar and Ishmael and as long as this hatred is in you then you will see things darkly.

Originally posted by Experiential


My Reply
They (Peter, James, Judas etc) were not Muslims. To say they were Muslims is ridiculous. How could they be Muslims when they was born 600 years before the new religion of Mohammad. And don’t try playing with word meanings that it was because he was “submitted” to God. That’s just word play.
Beside your Quran contradicts itself as to who was the first Muslim. Was it Moses? Was it other believers at time of Moses? Was it pharaohs magicians? Was it Mohammad? Was it Noah ? or was it Adam ?
If you want evidence they supported Paul read The Book of Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.


You are just repeating the same old prejudice.

Sahih International

Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." 2:133

Originally posted by Experiential


My Reply
Ultimately it goes back to the descendents of Abraham. The Jews go back to the free woman Sarah and Gods blessing and promise to Isaac, not the line of Hagar the slave woman and her son Ishmael. As a result Jews and Christians are not of Hagars slave religion.


LOL same old rubbish. God tells us in the Holy Qur’an that both Ismael and Isaac both beloved to Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) were blessed. Also Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) loved both his sons equally.

Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply
In regards to Jesus as the “Lamb of God” there are prophesies and verses in the Torah and Injil that refer to The Messiah being offered as a “sacrificial lamb

Also in the Torah prophesies point to The Messiah dying–
Piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
Being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
Praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
Piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)


Rubbish. All were associations. All of the above is only true if you associate Jesus (pbuh) having gone through with the above. They’ve conveniently taken the above verses from the OT and associated it with Jesus (pbuh).

Originally posted by Experiential


My Reply
Prove it was corrupted. You cant. Your attempt at the Council of Nicea argument has already failed. And besides why believe something written 600 years after the fact.


The proof that the OT & NT are corrupted are in the inconsistencies and contradictions. It’s as plain as day is from night. I have not failed in my argument that the Bible was edited at the Council of Nicea. It’s just that you can’t see it because you have got blinkers on.

Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply
A few verses from Isaiah only! Really? I don’t think so! Here they are –


Again all of the examples you give are only true by association.

Originally posted by Experiential

Prove to me that Mohammad was prophesied in the Torah.


The proof has been suppressed in the Bible. Modern scholars have discovered that in the original Hebrew version of the Psalms ‘Muhammed’ is mentioned.

You need to open your eyes and open your heart and have an open mind. You have been spewing out what you have been taught by your fathers and you want keep the status quo.
You need to be like Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) whose fathers were idol worshippers and they broke their stranglehold on idol worship and they were given wisdom and knowledge.

Sahih International

And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided? 2:170

Abu Loren Said

Regarding Jeremiah 31:33 it does not say when the new Covenant will be established, it is not specific.

Whatever the Covenant the Children of Israel established with God is now null and void because the Children of Israel broke that Covenant. For a covenant to be binding one or both of the parties must adhere to the Covenant and not break it.

My Reply

Correct. The Old Covenant is null and void. Jeremiah promised the new covenant would come later and then Jesus heralded it in when he said –

 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

 Luke 22:20.

 

Abu Loren Said

With regard to your quotes from the New Testament they cannot be accepted because we don’t really know what is real and what is added.

My Reply

Yes the Quran and Muslims are confused about the Injil. However the New Testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now.

There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). As a result the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

You STILL do not know the meaning of the word MUSLIM. Let me explain it to you once more, a Muslim is a person who has submitted his being to the One True God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala. Therefore, from Adam (pbuh) to Jesus (pbuh) to Muhammed (pbuh) were all Muslims. Also include Abraham, Moses and all the prophets of God.

My Reply

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

Mohammed did not need to understand anything but was revealed to him by God Almighty. You keep thinking wrongly that Muslims just came on the scene when Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was given prophethood. Keep thinking like that and you will never understand anything.

My Reply

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

It’s true that Hagar was a slave woman but she was beloved of Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and she gave him his first born son Prophet Ishmael (pbuh). You, like the writers of the Bible seem to demonise Hagar and Ishmael and as long as this hatred is in you then you will see things darkly.

My Reply

I am not demonizing her. She was blessed ! However the Torah is clear – the promise was with Isaac.

 

Genesis 17:18- 21

 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"

 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac.  I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."

 

 Abu Loren Said

You are just repeating the same old prejudice.

Sahih International. Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." 2:133

My Reply

Quoting the Quaran means nothing to me because I don’t believe in the Quaran.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

LOL same old rubbish. God tells us in the Holy Qur’an that both Ismael and Isaac both beloved to Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) were blessed. Also Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) loved both his sons equally.

My Reply

Quoting the Quaran means nothing to me because I don’t believe in the Quaran.

The Torah is clear – the promise was with Isaac.

 

Genesis 17:18- 21

 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"

 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac.  I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."

 

 

Abu Loren Said

Rubbish. All were associations. All of the above is only true if you associate Jesus (pbuh) having gone through with the above. They’ve conveniently taken the above verses from the OT and associated it with Jesus (pbuh).

My Reply

The life, death and resurrection

of Jesus is documented historical fact. Unlike Mohamed’s version written more than 600 years later.

The historical facts fit the prophesies.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

The proof that the OT & NT are corrupted are in the inconsistencies and contradictions. It’s as plain as day is from night. I have not failed in my argument that the Bible was edited at the Council of Nicea. It’s just that you can’t see it because you have got blinkers on.

My Reply

Show me the inconsistencies and contradictions. Where is your proof.

The Injil was not changed at Nicea. The Injil was firmly established more than 200 years before Nicea and no decisions were made at Nicaea as to what would be included in the Injil.

All they discussed at Nicea was doctrine. What the Injil meant by the “God the Son” and the date of the Easter Festival.

This is historical fact.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

The proof has been suppressed in the Bible. Modern scholars have discovered that in the original Hebrew version of the Psalms ‘Muhammed’ is mentioned.

My Reply

Where is your evidence ? Prove it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IP IP Logged
Larry
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2010
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 632
Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 23 October 2012 at 1:02am

******************************************************************************************************************
******************************************************************************************************************
Abu Loren,

You say that;

Islam started with Prophet Adam (pbuh). But to make you understand what you are saying here, Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and Prophet Is'mail (pbuh) establish the religion of the One True God in Mecca. then over time this became corrupted and people started to worship idols. Then Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) re-established the monotheistic religion, destroying all the idols from the Ka'baa. With regard to the 'stone' I already told you that we do not worship it in any way, shape or form. It is special in the sense that it is from heaven, anything from heaven is special right Larry?

You say; "With regard to the 'stone' I already told you that we do not worship it in any way, shape or form. It is special in the sense that it is from heaven, anything from heaven is special right Larry?"

   "Special?" Let us see just HOW "special" this 'stone' is:

   The "Prophet" informed the three main virtues of the stone.

   1. Allah sent the Black Stone down from paradise whiter than milk; however, the sins of mankind turned it black."

   2. It will come on the Day of Judgement with two eyes with which it shall see and a tongue with which it will speak and will testify for those who have touched it in truth and sincerity.

   3. Touching the stone is also one of the means by which Allah erases sins.

   The "stone" will "see" and "speak" on Judgement Day? I'd say that makes it rather more "special" than you want to admit. Or is it common in Islam to believe that stones can see and talk? Or by merely "touching" the stone can "erase sin?" Or, do you say that these statements by the "Prophet" are not true?

   In the Bible, God warns us about revering or attributing special powers to idols and other objects made of stone or wood or precious metals that, "cannot walk or talk or see."

   Evidently, that doesn't apply to the "special" Black Stone.

Larry
******************************************************************************************************************
******************************************************************************************************************

Edited by Larry - 23 October 2012 at 6:53pm
IP IP Logged
Abu Loren
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Online
Posts: 1145
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 23 October 2012 at 6:35am
Originally posted by Experiential

Nonsensical.
 

Who Was the First Muslim?

It seems clear to me that you do not understand  anything.

6:14,163 are very clear. After the Arabs had descended into idol worship, of course Muhammed (pbuh) is the first Muslim amongst them as he was the first to submit to the One True God.

7:143 After seeing the miracle that Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala had just performed, Prophet Musa (pbuh) prostates to the ground and is asking God to forgive him for testing Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala then says that he will be first of the believers in his new Covenant.

26:51 This is when the magicians had just witnessed the miracle Prophet Musa (pbuh) had performed with his staff in front of the Pharoah. The magicians were utterly defeated and thus became believers, hence they will be the first Muslims there.

2:127-133, 3:67 All Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) is saying here is to make his descendants Muslims.

2:37???

Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord?

53:1-18 You are confused once more. This surah tells us that he saw the Archangel Jibril (AS).

81:15-29 You are yet MORE confused. Again this tells the vision of Jibril (AS).

6:102-103 It just says that Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala sees everything.

42:51 This is laughable and pitiful. The verse says that Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala do not send revelations directly to a human being.

Were Warners Sent to All Mankind Before Muhammad?

Of course warners were sent to all mankind before Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Propets Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, Dawud, Suleiman, Shu’aib, Hud, Salih,  Isa (peace blessings of Allah be upon them all) comes to mind. When the original message is lost then they are not the same people, religiously speaking.

What about Hud and Salih who supposedly were sent to the Arabs?

The people of Prophet Hud (pbuh) and Prophet Salih were completely destroyed by Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala.

What about the Book that was supposedly given to Ishmael?

Which book is that? And what is it’s name?

If you read the Holy Qur’an properly then you will know that a thorny, poisonous plant is Zaqqum. As for the pus from wounds, that is for a people who are in the lower depths of hell. There are different layers within hell where sinners are sent according to the sins they’ve committed.

Can Angels Cause the Death of People?

Again you misunderstood. All the angels act upon the orders of Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala therefore they by themselves do not cause death, they only act upon the orders given to them.

To Marry or Not to Marry?

Muslim men were allowed to marry because of the relationship that they have through Abraham. Like the food that was made lawful for both parties.

Will Allah reward the good deeds of Unbelievers?

Yet more confusion. Surah 99:7 says that the people who does good and evil see the result of their actions.

Should Muslims show kindness to their parents?

Yes because disobeying or showing unkindness to one’s parents is a great sin.  You are correct in saying that one should not show kindness or mercy to  one’s parents if they oppose Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) this is because if you obey such parents then they are taking you into disbelief and hell fire.

How many mothers does a Muslim have?

Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala makes the distinction between one’s real mother and his nurse in order that the one who is nursed do not marry the woman who nursed him. By suckling, it is as if that woman is his mother. As for your other point it is very silly as this thread. The Prophet’s wives (May Allah be pleased with them) are given an honorary title ‘Mothers of the believers’. If you can’t understand this then there is no hope for you.

How many angels were talking to Mary?

The English translation is not the Holy Qura’n, it clearly states as ‘Malaikattu’ in Arabic in both of the ayas.

I’m not going continue any further because you lack serious understanding as demonstrated by you asking these silly questions and secondly this is seriously wasting my time explaining things to you. I suggest you engage with a Muslim scholar, then again I don’t think he will have time for silliness like this.

 

With regard to your quote from Paul in Philippians, I do not take Paul seriously as I do not believe that he had a vision Jesus (pbuh) when Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t even crucified.

PHILIPPIANS

2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

My interpretation of the above :-

God hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name because he is the Messiah.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow because he is the promised king, the anointed, the Messiah.

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is the Messiah, to the glory of God Almighty.

 



Edited by Abu Loren - 23 October 2012 at 11:57am
IP IP Logged
Abu Loren
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Online
Posts: 1145
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 23 October 2012 at 8:12am
Originally posted by Experiential

Correct. The Old Covenant is null and void. Jeremiah promised the new covenant would come later and then Jesus heralded it in when he said –

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Luke 22:20.

Who says? Paul? Jesus (pbuh) did NOT abolish the law. The verse you quoted could have been inserted anytime. We can't trust it.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Yes the Quran and Muslims are confused about the Injil. However the New Testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now.

There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). As a result the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability.

 The original scriptures are lost.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.

Are you God?

 

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.  

 

Are you God?

Originally posted by Experiential

I am not demonizing her. She was blessed ! However the Torah is clear – the promise was with Isaac. (/QUOTE] 

 Yes Jewish prejudice.

Originally posted by Experiential

Quoting the Quaran means nothing to me because I don’t believe in the Quaran.

I see then what are you doing in an Islamic forum?  

Originally posted by Experiential

Show me the inconsistencies and contradictions. Where is your proof.

The Injil was not changed at Nicea. The Injil was firmly established more than 200 years before Nicea and no decisions were made at Nicaea as to what would be included in the Injil.

All they discussed at Nicea was doctrine. What the Injil meant by the “God the Son” and the date of the Easter Festival.

This is historical fact.

 

Same old, same old...
 
 
[QUOTE=Experiential]  

Where is your evidence ? Prove it.

The proof is in the Holy Qur'an which you don't believe in. So it's pointless quoting here.
 


Edited by Abu Loren - 23 October 2012 at 10:45am
IP IP Logged
Larry
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2010
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 632
Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 25 October 2012 at 4:11am
Abu Loren,

   In reference to your conversation with Experiential.
**************************************************

   You say, in relation to the question about Jesus abolishing the Law,

   "Who says? Paul? Jesus (pbuh) did NOT abolish the law. The verse you quoted could have been inserted anytime, we can't trust it."

   Who is "we?" Muslims?

   Actually, Jesus Christ in Matthew 5:17 says,

   17. "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

   The "New Testament" (Covenant) is the record of this new covenant between God and man.

   I think that if someone had "inserted" (your "conspiracy theory") this passage into Matthew at a much later date, that someone would have noticed.

   Matthew 7:12 says,

   12. "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

   Another "later insertion?"

**********************************************

   You say that "he original scriptures were lost."

   So was the "original" Qur'an.

   Correction: The "original" Qur'an was not lost, it was intentionally destroyed.

*************************************************

   The religion of Islam started with the "revelations" of Muhammad. There is absolutely NO evidence that there was a monotheistic religion in Arabia BEFORE Muhammad. In fact, the religion of the moon god, especially, was worshipped all over the ancient world, particularly in Arabia, and by the Sabeans, along with his three daughters, Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat. The Kaaba in Mecca is not unique, there are other Kaabas in Arabia, and they were used for stone idol worship, as in Mecca.
   
   The Kaaba of Taif, called "Kabbah of Ellat" (of the Sun), was more significant and much older than the Kaaba of Mecca, All Arabs, including the Quryash, venerated this Kaaba.

*************************************************

   Experiential said, "I am not demonizing her (Hagar). She was blessed! However, the Torah is clear-the promise was with Isaac."

   You say that is "Jewish prejudice."

   Just the fact that Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael away after the birth of Isaac, shows this to be true.

***********************************************

     You maintain that the "Injil" was "changed" at Nicea.

   Sorry, but you are wrong.

   "The First Council of Nicea was a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicea in Bithynia (modern day Iznik in Turkey) by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in A.D. 325. This first ecumenical, (1. general, universal, 2. Pertaining to the whole Christian church), was the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom.
   It's main accomplishments were settlement of the Trinitarian issue of the nature of the Son and His relationship to God the Father, the construction of the first part of the Creed of Nicea, settling the calculation of the date of Easter, and the promulgation of early canon law."

   Not a single letter of the "Injil" was changed or modified.

************************************************

Larry

Edited by Larry - 25 October 2012 at 4:40am
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 34 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com