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Experiential
 
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2012 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart



I think it is obvious that you have not read Paul.  I think it would be good if you would.  You would find much of what he was teaching is in alignment with Islamic teaching.  Please if you would tell me what exactly you are disagreeing with in his teaching.  I would like to know and understand.  Thanks.
 
Peace,
Caringheart



Of course I have read Paul's version of things. I completely deny all of it as fake because his premise lies in his claim that he had a vision of Jesus (pbuh) on the road to Damascus when Jesus (pbuh) wasn't even dead.

He is a clever manipulator and he knew the Torah inside out as he was a Pharisee and he manipulated the OT to suit his needs.

Jews in his day despised the Romans who were the occupying force in Israel. Although Paul was a Jew he was born in Tarsus which was in Asia Minor. No self respecting Jew in his day took up Roman citizenship. This in itself tells me that he was a dubious character.

I still maintain that Paul was a liar and a fraud. Because of his false teachings he has lead billions of people throughout history to hell fire.

 

Abu Loren said

Of course I have read Paul's version of things. I completely deny all of it as fake because his premise lies in his claim that he had a vision of Jesus (pbuh) on the road to Damascus when Jesus (pbuh) wasn't even dead.

My Reply

You are not reading The Book of Acts properly. Paul’s vision was after the crucifixion and resurrection.

 

Abu Loren said

He is a clever manipulator and he knew the Torah inside out as he was a Pharisee and he manipulated the OT to suit his needs. Jews in his day despised the Romans who were the occupying force in Israel.

My Reply

Then you should know then that as a Pharisee he would resist going to gentiles.

 

Abu Loren said

Although Paul was a Jew he was born in Tarsus which was in Asia Minor. No self respecting Jew in his day took up Roman citizenship. This in itself tells me that he was a dubious character.

My Reply

You need to know your history better before participating in conspiracy theories. You thought the Injil was changed at the Council of Nicea which has been proven wrong.

You said Paul took up Roman citizenship. Actually Paul did not take up Roman citizenship. Paul was a Roman citizen by birth. He was born in the city of Tarsus and a hundred years previously the Roman politician Anthony had conferred Roman citizenship upon all the inhabitants of Tarsus. paul was a Roman citizen automatically, its not something he chose like you say.

 

Abu Loren said

I still maintain that Paul was a liar and a fraud. Because of his false teachings he has lead billions of people throughout history to hell fire.

Abu Loren

My Reply

Paul was imprisoned and executed by the Roman Empire. He obviously was not an agent of the Roman Empire !

The Church leaders such as Peter, James, were Jews and they all supported him. For example – read The Book of Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.

 

As mentioned if you are so worried about Paul and a Roman pagan plot, I suggest you worry more about al Hajar al-Aswad the Arab pagan rock you bow to and why Mohamed incorporated a pagan practice into his new religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Edited by Experiential - 08 October 2012 at 6:23pm
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2012 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiential, you are simply making excuses for Peter. There is nothing for Peter to fear if Jesus told him to go to all nations. So he is more afraid of criticism from his fellow disciples than his master. That rsises another question. Why would his fellow disciples(i.e James) object to him associating with gentiles if he was following Jesus instructions to teach all creation? Even when visiting Cornelius, Peter did not say that 'Jesus told us to teach all nations' but refees to a vision. Jesus never told his disciples to go first to jews then gentiles. Quote the appropriate scripture if i am wrong. What i am trying to establish is that based on the behaviour of the disciples in the verses i quoted, Jesus never instructed them to teach 'all creation' as in Matthew 28:18. The evidence is consistent with statements in Matthew 10:5-6 and Matthew 15:24.

Mahdi Said

Experiential, you are simply making excuses for Peter. There is nothing for Peter to fear if Jesus told him to go to all nations. So he is more afraid of criticism from his fellow disciples than his master.

My Reply

Hello Mahdi. Read Mark 14.69, Luke 22.54 Mathew 26.73 and John 18.13 and you will see what a coward Peter could be. He even denied knowing Jesus!

 

 Mahdi Said

That raises another question. Why would his fellow disciples(i.e James) object to him associating with gentiles if he was following Jesus instructions to teach all creation?

My Reply

But Mahdi, James did support Paul going to the gentiles! See The Book of Acts 15.13 -30.

 

Also here are some other verses that show the Church leaders eg. Peter and John etc agreed with Paul to go to the gentiles-

Peter refers how they (gentiles) used to be pagans - 1Peter 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 

 

Peter said he supported Paul in 2Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 

 

John (not Paul) said in 1John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 

 

John (not Paul) said in 1John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 

 

John (not Paul) said in 2John 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 

 

Peter (not Paul) quoting the Old testament prophet Joel said in Thre Book of Act 2:17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 

 

And Peter (not Paul) said in Act 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call." 

 

Also remember other church leaders like Mathew, Mark and  Luke would not have written the words of Jesus to go to the gentiles if they did not believe it themselves.

 

 

Mahdi Said

Even when visiting Cornelius, Peter did not say that 'Jesus told us to teach all nations' but refers to a vision.

My Reply

Yes it was after the vision, but Peter would still have refused to act on the vision if Jesus had never said to go to the gentiles.

 Besides there are plenty of examples where the disciples didn’t understand what Jesus was saying until later. For example at first they thought Jesus as the Messiah would be a military ruler.

 

Mahdi Said

Jesus never told his disciples to go first to Jews then gentiles. Quote the appropriate scripture if i am wrong.

My Reply.

OK. Here they are.

Luke 24:46.  “He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 

Luke 24:47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”

 

Acts 1:7. “He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. “

 

Acts 1:8 “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." 

 

Peter (not Paul ) said in Act 3:25 “And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'

 

And again Peter (not Paul) said in Act 11:17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" 

 

 

Mahdi Said

What I am trying to establish is that based on the behavior of the disciples in the verses I quoted, Jesus never instructed them to teach 'all creation' as in Matthew 28:18. The evidence is consistent with statements in Matthew 10:5-6 and Matthew 15:24.

My Reply

I think from the above verses it is obvious. First to the Jew and then to the gentile.

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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 1:14am
As'alaamu Alaikkum Mr. Experential

Let's go through your points one by one so we are both clear as day is from night.

Let me explain it once again to you...Paul took away no Jewishness. Jesus the Messiah was a Jew. Paul was a Jew. Mohamed was not.

I don't know if you know anything about the Mosaic Law it is completely 'Jewishness' which Paul said is no longer required as the alleged death of Jesus (pbuh) was enough to close that covenant. Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim as he had submitted fully to God the Almighty. I really don't know what Paul was.

Mohammed (pbuh) was not a Jew has nothing to do with anything. He was a direct descendant of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh) who was also a Muslim. I don't know if you know or if you are aware but God Almighty had promised 'His friend' Prophet Abraham (pbuh) that all the prophets who would follow him would be his descendants. So no change there.

Jesus’s friends – Peter, James, Judas etc were Jews and they all supported Paul. For example –read Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.

They were all Muslims and there is no evidence that they supported Paul, in fact there are indications in the New Testament of the friction between the two factions.

'Jew' and 'Jewishness' are labels that the Children of Israel stuck on themselves. So 'Jew' and 'Jewishness' has no bearing on anything.

The Injil was written by many authors, mainly Jews, Paul was only one of these authors and his writings do not differ from the others and that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity.

The writings do differ, if you examine it closely then you will see that there are many contradictions because people tried to change what was written originally. They needed to do this to support their new found idealogy of the Trinity and Jesus (pbuh) being the lamb that was lead to the slaughter.

Paul and the other injil authors lived at the time of Jesus. Mohammad did not. Mohammad lived 600 years after Jesus, Paul and the others.

Paul and the other writers of the Injil lived at the time of Jesus (pbuh) and started to write after thirty or fourty years after his Ascension. Muhammed (pbuh) lived as you have said 600 years after the Ascension of Jesus (pbuh) and was chosen because the Injil was corrupted by the hands of men. So it makes sense why the final revelations was given to the final messenger to mankind.

The Torah and Old Testament contain the prophesies of Jesus the Messiah. Not of Mohammad.

Not true. The alleged prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) hangs on a few verses from Isiah allegedly a prophecy about Jesus (pbuh) but it only becomes a propecy of Jesus (pbuh) only by association. If you associate that Jesus (pbuh) was tortured and killed on the cross. Muhammed (pbuh) was prophecied in the OT as well as the NT. The Holy Qur'an confirms this fact.

This is the Jewish tradition to Christianity that Islam just does not have.

Sorry I had have a quiet laugh at this statement. Christians in no way resemble the Jews as Christianity is a Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology.

Paul was not an agent of the Roman Empire. He was imprisoned and executed by the Roman Empire.

This is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

Your conspiracy theory doesn’t hold. You thought the Injil was changed at the Council of Nicea which has been proven wrong!

No problem. Modern scholars including Christians are confirming this fact. Just search for it on the internet. When and where was I PROVEN wrong?
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 3:58am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

As'alaamu Alaikkum Mr. Experential

Let's go through your points one by one so we are both clear as day is from night.

Let me explain it once again to you...Paul took away no Jewishness. Jesus the Messiah was a Jew. Paul was a Jew. Mohamed was not.

I don't know if you know anything about the Mosaic Law it is completely 'Jewishness' which Paul said is no longer required as the alleged death of Jesus (pbuh) was enough to close that covenant. Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim as he had submitted fully to God the Almighty. I really don't know what Paul was.

   Paul is referring to the fact that the Old Testament was completed and fulfilled in the New Testament. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrifice and after that animal sacrifices, called for in the Old Testament, no longer applied. The Old Testament was superseded by the New Testament, or New "Covenant" between God and His people.

Mohammed (pbuh) was not a Jew has nothing to do with anything. He was a direct descendant of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh) who was also a Muslim. I don't know if you know or if you are aware but God Almighty had promised 'His friend' Prophet Abraham (pbuh) that all the prophets who would follow him would be his descendants. So no change there.

   Really? Could you produce the evidence for your claim that God promised Abraham that all future "prophets" would be DIRECT descendants of Abraham? I would be interested to see your proofs of this "promise" in the cases of prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Zechariah, Malachi, etc.

Jesus’s friends – Peter, James, Judas etc were Jews and they all supported Paul. For example –read Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.

They were all Muslims and there is no evidence that they supported Paul, in fact there are indications in the New Testament of the friction between the two factions.

   Please produce your "proof" that Peter, James, Judas, etc. were really "Muslims" who did NOT support Paul. And please produce your "proof" that there was "friction" between these two supposed "factions."

'Jew' and 'Jewishness' are labels that the Children of Israel stuck on themselves. So 'Jew' and 'Jewishness' has no bearing on anything.

   "Jew and Jewishness" have been around for over three thousand years, far earlier than Islam or Muhammad even existed. To retroactively call any Biblical personages "Muslims" is simply incorrect. "Muslims" have only existed since the 7th century A.D., after the founding of Islam by Muhammad. Even if they claim that "Islam" preceded Judaism and Christianity. It is simply a claim with no Biblical proofs or support.

The Injil was written by many authors, mainly Jews, Paul was only one of these authors and his writings do not differ from the others and that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity.

   I agree.

The writings do differ, if you examine it closely then you will see that there are many contradictions because people tried to change what was written originally. They needed to do this to support their new found idealogy of the Trinity and Jesus (pbuh) being the lamb that was lead to the slaughter.

   If there is any written "work" that has MANY contradictions with the Old and New Testaments, it is the Qur'an. The Bible has been continuously studied and reinterpreted many times as new scholarship and archaeological findings come into being. The "New King James Version" of the Bible that I use differs in language used because the original King James Bible was written in archaic Elizabethan English that is no longer used. Does this mean that they "contradict" each other? There were 66 authors of the Bible and the fact that there are almost no contradictions or major changes between them shows how closely the Old and New Testaments are in form and in message. As I said, the Qur'an has SERIOUS and Manifold contradictions and differences with Biblical scripture, and if any work is deemed "unreliable" it is the Qur'an.

Paul and the other injil authors lived at the time of Jesus. Mohammad did not. Mohammad lived 600 years after Jesus, Paul and the others.

   I agree.

Paul and the other writers of the Injil lived at the time of Jesus (pbuh) and started to write after thirty or fourty years after his Ascension. Muhammed (pbuh) lived as you have said 600 years after the Ascension of Jesus (pbuh) and was chosen because the Injil was corrupted by the hands of men. So it makes sense why the final revelations was given to the final messenger to mankind.

   The only problem being that the only "prophet" not mentioned in the New Testament or "Injil" is Muhammad. There are no references to him (although Muslims like to claim that the word "paraclete" in Greek actually refers to Muhammad himself, though there is NO Biblical support for that claim), or any other recognition of him as the "final" and "seal of the prophets." But all other prophets are named in the Bible. If anyone has "corrupted" the Old and New Testaments it is Muhammad. And it seems so "convenient" for Muslims to use certain writings in the Old and New Testaments to show that Islam is the "true" religion, while ANY writings in the Bible that CONTRADICT the Qur'an are simply dismissed as "corrupt." I would be interested if a Muslim author could tell us which particular scriptural verses are "corrupt" and which of those that are true.

The Torah and Old Testament contain the prophesies of Jesus the Messiah. Not of Mohammad.

   I agree.

Not true. The alleged prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) hangs on a few verses from Isiah allegedly a prophecy about Jesus (pbuh) but it only becomes a propecy of Jesus (pbuh) only by association. If you associate that Jesus (pbuh) was tortured and killed on the cross. Muhammed (pbuh) was prophecied in the OT as well as the NT. The Holy Qur'an confirms this fact.

   The "alleged" prophecies concerning Jesus Christ as the Messiah are not only in the Book of Isaiah. Although the prophecies of Isaiah concerning the Messiah were made 700 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. The entire New Testament of Jesus Christ is exactly that, the New "Covenant" between God and His people. And the Bible is explicit in it's writings concerning the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Muhammad is NOT mentioned even ONCE in the Old or New Tetaments. The only source for Muhammad being a "prophet" is in the Qur'an, which was supposedly "revealed' to Muhammad himself, so there is no mystery as to why Muhammad is mentioned as a "prophet" in the Qur'an only.

This is the Jewish tradition to Christianity that Islam just does not have.

   I agree.

Sorry I had have a quiet laugh at this statement. Christians in no way resemble the Jews as Christianity is a Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology.

   Jesus was a Jew, and He fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament, ALL OF THEM, and the religion that follows His ministry is Christianity itself.

   You say that Christianity is a "Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology." Is that the same thing in the case of Islam being only a repackaging of Arab paganism of the 7th century A.D.? Both Muhammad's father and uncle had "Allah" (a pagan deity) as part of their names before Muhammad was even born. Also, every ritual connected to the "Hajj" is pagan in origin. The "two seamless white garments," "the running between the two hills," the stoning of the devil," the circumnambulation around the Kaaba a fixed number of times," "praying in the direction of the Kaaba," etc. The famous "Black Stone" was one of the 360 pagan idols in the Kaaba, and the only pagan idol that Muhammad did not destroy. Not only was this idol kept, it was cemented into the corner of the Kaaba itself and is highly venerated by Muslims who attempt to kiss or touch it (with their hands or even with a stick, etc.)

   If any religion is based on "pagan theology" it is Islam itself.

Paul was not an agent of the Roman Empire. He was imprisoned and executed by the Roman Empire.

   I agree.

This is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

   I agree.

Your conspiracy theory doesn’t hold. You thought the Injil was changed at the Council of Nicea which has been proven wrong!

   The "Council of Nicea" did not "change" the New Testament (Or "Injil" as you call it, but "Injil" is a Greek word, not Arabic). The Council of Nicea was the place where the doctrine of the Trinity was formally announced.

   This is somewhat like what happened with the Qur'an when it was "standardized" by Uthman. And any other copy of the Qur'an that differed with Uthman's mushaf such as those of Ibn Masub and Ubay B. Ka'ab), was ordered to be destroyed by burning. Uthman used "Hafsah's Codex" as the model for the Qur'an's standardization and returned the codex to Hafsah afterward, undamaged and intact. It was only later that Islamic "authorities" decided that the original Qur'an, Hafsah's Codex" needed to be destroyed also. Which is strange because Uthman used it to make "four perfect copies" before returning it to Hafsah, as he promised her.

No problem. Modern scholars including Christians are confirming this fact. Just search for it on the internet. When and where was I PROVEN wrong?


   And, by the way, I have no idea of where you get the idea that Christians try to refer to themselves as "Israelites." The "Children of Israel" were the "Israelites" and even in the Qur'an are directed to settle into their own land that God provided for them.

   But the words "Islam" and "Muslim" are necver mentioned even one time in the Old or New Testaments. That is because "Islam" and "Muslims" were named for the first time more than 600 years after the New Testament, in the 7th century A.D. in the Qur'an. Even though Muslims try to pretend that Islam and the Qur'an actually PREDATED both the Old and New Testaments!!! Rather "convenient" for Muslims, don't you think?

   Also, there is supposedly a Qur'an "on tablets preserved" intact in heaven that is the same as the Qur'an today. The problem is that even when the Qur'an claims to be written in "pure Arabic," there are numerous foreign words in the Qur'an, including Greek, Aramaic, Assyrian, Ethiopic, etc. A coincidence? I don't think so!

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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2012 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Mahdi Said Let us look at some more
information. Matthew 10:23
When they persecute you in
one town, flee to the next, for
truly, I say to you, you will not
have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son
of Man comes.
Maybe all nations = Israel My Reply Mahdi. Its true - they actually
did not go through all the
towns of Israel before the Son
of Man came, because the Son
of Man did come - after his
resurrection.


Very good answer Experiential.

Matthew 10 New International Version
(NIV) Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave
them authority to drive out
impure spirits and to heal
every disease and sickness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon
(who is called Peter) and his
brother Andrew; James son of
Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax
collector; James son of
Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following
instructions: “Do not go
among the Gentiles or enter
any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of
heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead,
cleanse those who have
leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received;
freely give. 9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in
your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or
sandals or a staff, for the
worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for
some worthy person and stay
at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your
peace rest on it; if it is not, let
your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you
or listen to your words, leave
that home or town and shake
the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more
bearable for Sodom and
Gomorrah on the day of
judgment than for that town. 16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves.
Therefore be as shrewd as
snakes and as innocent as
doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the
local councils and be flogged
in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought
before governors and kings as
witnesses to them and to the
Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about
what to say or how to say it.
At that time you will be given
what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit
of your Father speaking
through you. 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father
his child; children will rebel
against their parents and have
them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because
of me, but the one who stands
firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.
Truly I tell you, you will not
finish going through the
towns of Israel before the Son
of Man comes.


By claiming the last statement of the scripture is talking about Jesus ressurection, you are making him a liar and false prophet. Unless you can prove all the things he predicted in the quoted scripture happened before his ressurection. Who is taking verses out of context now?

No it is after his resurrection. The reason for this is Jerusalem and Israel had judgment brought upon it in AD 70.

 The term Son of Man is often used in the context of judgment. The judgment of the Son of Man fell upon Israel in AD 70.

The disciples had not finished going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man came in judgment on Jerusalem and Israel in AD 70 after the resurrection of Jesus.

This is also the fulfillment of Matthew 10:15 the Day of Judgment.

 

In regards to the gentile / Jew question in Mathew 10.18 you see a hint that the message of the disciples would not long be confined to the lost sheep of the house of Israel but would also move to the Gentiles. Judgment first to the Jews and then to the whole world. 

 

Mathew 10.18. “And you shall be brought before governors (Gentiles) provincial rulers (Gentil

es) and kings (Gentiles) the highest tribunals (Gentiles) for my sake, for a testimony against them rather, "to them," in order to bear testimony to the truth and its glorious effects.”

 

Later in Mathew 15. 22 Jesus was to heal the daughter of the Syrophoenician woman (Gentile).



Edited by Experiential - 10 October 2012 at 3:01pm
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2012 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

As'alaamu Alaikkum Mr. Experential

Let's go through your points one by one so we are both clear as day is from night.

Let me explain it once again to you...Paul took away no Jewishness. Jesus the Messiah was a Jew. Paul was a Jew. Mohamed was not.

I don't know if you know anything about the Mosaic Law it is completely 'Jewishness' which Paul said is no longer required as the alleged death of Jesus (pbuh) was enough to close that covenant. Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim as he had submitted fully to God the Almighty. I really don't know what Paul was.

Mohammed (pbuh) was not a Jew has nothing to do with anything. He was a direct descendant of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh) who was also a Muslim. I don't know if you know or if you are aware but God Almighty had promised 'His friend' Prophet Abraham (pbuh) that all the prophets who would follow him would be his descendants. So no change there.

Jesus’s friends – Peter, James, Judas etc were Jews and they all supported Paul. For example –read Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.

They were all Muslims and there is no evidence that they supported Paul, in fact there are indications in the New Testament of the friction between the two factions.

'Jew' and 'Jewishness' are labels that the Children of Israel stuck on themselves. So 'Jew' and 'Jewishness' has no bearing on anything.

The Injil was written by many authors, mainly Jews, Paul was only one of these authors and his writings do not differ from the others and that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity.

The writings do differ, if you examine it closely then you will see that there are many contradictions because people tried to change what was written originally. They needed to do this to support their new found idealogy of the Trinity and Jesus (pbuh) being the lamb that was lead to the slaughter.

Paul and the other injil authors lived at the time of Jesus. Mohammad did not. Mohammad lived 600 years after Jesus, Paul and the others.

Paul and the other writers of the Injil lived at the time of Jesus (pbuh) and started to write after thirty or fourty years after his Ascension. Muhammed (pbuh) lived as you have said 600 years after the Ascension of Jesus (pbuh) and was chosen because the Injil was corrupted by the hands of men. So it makes sense why the final revelations was given to the final messenger to mankind.

The Torah and Old Testament contain the prophesies of Jesus the Messiah. Not of Mohammad.

Not true. The alleged prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) hangs on a few verses from Isiah allegedly a prophecy about Jesus (pbuh) but it only becomes a propecy of Jesus (pbuh) only by association. If you associate that Jesus (pbuh) was tortured and killed on the cross. Muhammed (pbuh) was prophecied in the OT as well as the NT. The Holy Qur'an confirms this fact.

This is the Jewish tradition to Christianity that Islam just does not have.

Sorry I had have a quiet laugh at this statement. Christians in no way resemble the Jews as Christianity is a Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology.

Paul was not an agent of the Roman Empire. He was imprisoned and executed by the Roman Empire.

This is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

Your conspiracy theory doesn’t hold. You thought the Injil was changed at the Council of Nicea which has been proven wrong!

No problem. Modern scholars including Christians are confirming this fact. Just search for it on the internet. When and where was I PROVEN wrong?

Abu Loren Said

I don't know if you know anything about the Mosaic Law it is completely 'Jewishness' which Paul said is no longer required as the alleged death of Jesus (pbuh) was enough to close that covenant. Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim as he had submitted fully to God the Almighty. I reallydon't know what Paul was.

My Reply

In regards to the Old Covenant (Mosaic law) and the New Covenant the prophet Jeremiah talks about the New Covenant –

 

 “But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.Jeremiah 31:33

 

Jesus said “Do not think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil the law.” Matthew 5:17

 

Jesus took the cup of wine and said, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.” (Luke 22:20).

 

With Jesus' birth, life, death, and resurrection the Old Covenant was fulfilled and a new covenant was instituted.

 

The Injil says, “At the moment of Jesus' death on the cross, states that the veil (separating the entrance to the holy of holies) of the Temple was ripped from top to bottom, symbolizing that with Jesus death there was no longer a need for the temple (and the old Jewish religious rituals).”

Matthew 27:51

 

To say Jesus was a Muslim is ridiculous. How could he be a Muslim when he was born 600 years before the new religion of Mohammad. And don’t try playing with word meanings that it was because he was “submitted” to God. That’s just word games and twisting meaning.

Beside the Quran contradicts itself as to who was the first Muslim. Was it Moses? Was it other believers at the time of Moses? Was it  pharaohs magicians? was it Mohammad? Was it Noah ? or was it Adam ?

 

 Abu Loren Said

Mohammed (pbuh) was not a Jew has nothing to do with anything. He was a direct descendant of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh) who was also a Muslim. I don't know if you know or if you are aware but God Almighty had promised 'His friend' Prophet Abraham (pbuh) that all the prophets who would follow him would be his descendants. So no change there.

My Reply

Mohammad did not understand the Jewish foundation that Christianity is based on. How could Ishmael be a Muslim before the new religion of Mohammad. And Ishmael was of the line of Hagar, the slave woman, not of the free woman Sarah and Gods blessing and promise to Isaac. As a result he brings a slave religion and not the heritage to ever lasting life.

 

Abu Loren Said

They (Peter, James, Judas etc) were all Muslims and there is no evidence that they supported Paul, in fact there are indications in the New Testament of the friction between the two factions.

My Reply

They (Peter, James, Judas etc) were not Muslims. To say they were Muslims is ridiculous. How could they be Muslims when they was born 600 years before the new religion of Mohammad. And don’t try playing with word meanings that it was because he was “submitted” to God. That’s just word play.

Beside your Quran contradicts itself as to who was the first Muslim. Was it Moses? Was it other believers at time of Moses? Was it  pharaohs magicians? Was it Mohammad? Was it Noah ? or was it Adam ?

If you want evidence they supported Paul read The Book of Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.

 

Abu Loren Said

'Jew' and 'Jewishness' are labels that the Children of Israel stuck on themselves. So 'Jew' and 'Jewishness' has no bearing on anything.

My Reply

Ultimately it goes back to the descendents of Abraham. The Jews go back to the free woman Sarah and Gods blessing and promise to Isaac, not the line of Hagar the slave woman and her son Ishmael. As a result Jews and Christians are not of Hagars slave religion.

 

Abu Loren Said

The writings (Injil) do differ, if you examine it closely then you will see that there are many contradictions because people tried to change what was written originally. They needed to do this to support their new found idealogy of the Trinity and Jesus (pbuh) being the lamb that was lead to the slaughter.

My Reply

In regards to Jesus as the “Lamb of God” there are prophesies and verses in the Torah and Injil that refer to The Messiah being offered as a “sacrificial lamb”. For example-

 

In the Torah Gods forgiveness is based on atonement or cleansing / forgiveness through the shedding of blood with animal sacrifice at the temple. This animal sacrifice and festivals such as The Passover Festival and Yom Kipper (Day of Atonement) Festival are symbolic of the death and resurrection of Jesus .

 

Also in the Torah prophesies point to The Messiah dying–

Piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)

Being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)

Praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)

Piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)

 

In the Injil you have verses like –

 

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

John 1:29.

 

"Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'" Matthew 26:27-28

 

“This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” John 6:50-59

 

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Mark 10:45

 

Notice Paul wrote none of the above verses. And in regards to you saying people changing what was written in the Injil, Muslims have never been able to prove what the original Injil was before any tampering.

Prove to me where in the Quaran it says man tampered with the Injil. I asked you to do this before and all you could produce was something about monks and monasteries.

 

In regards to the Trinity, Paul never used the word and you will find it nowhere in the bible. Just to make it clear, Christians believe in only ONE God. However there are many verses in the Torah and Injil that refer to that ONE God having more than one aspect and more specifically three aspects to his oneness.

 
Abu Loren Said

Paul and the other writers of the Injil lived at the time of Jesus (pbuh) and started to write after thirty or fourty years after his Ascension. Muhammed (pbuh) lived as you have said 600 years after the Ascension of Jesus (pbuh) and was chosen because the Injil was corrupted by the hands of men. So it makes sense why the final revelations was given to the final messenger to mankind.

My Reply

Prove it was corrupted. You cant. Your attempt at the Council of Nicea argument has already failed. And besides why believe something written 600 years after the fact.

 
Abu Loren Said

Not true. The alleged prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) hangs on a few verses from Isiah allegedly a prophecy about Jesus (pbuh) but it only becomes a propecy of Jesus (pbuh) only by association. If you associate that Jesus (pbuh) was tortured and killed on the cross. Muhammed (pbuh) was prophecied in the OT as well as the NT. The Holy Qur'an confirms this fact.

My Reply.

A few verses from Isaiah only! Really?  I don’t think so! Here they are -

Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)

A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)

Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14)

Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)

Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)

Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)

Herod´s killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)

Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)

Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)

Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)

Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)

Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16) Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)

Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)

Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)

Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)

Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:

rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)

betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)

sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)

silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)

being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)

beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)

spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)

piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)

being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)

praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)

piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)

given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)

no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)

buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)

casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)

Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)

Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)

Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)

 

Far too many to just be by association. Prove to me that Mohammad was prophesied in the Torah.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

Sorry I had have a quiet laugh at this statement. Christians in no way resemble the Jews as Christianity is a Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology.

My Reply

Of course Christians don’t resemble the Jews in terms of their outward religion. I am not a Jew, I and have no desire to be. What’s more there is nothing in the Injil that require me to look like a Jew culturally or be Jewish in my outward behavior. However the foundation to my relationship with God is based on Jewish promises, prophesies and heritage.

 

I challenge you to prove to me that Christianity is a Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology.  You have mentioned the Trinity and Jesus as the sacrifial lamb of God but if you see my above response you will see they are based on the Torah and Injil.

As mentioned if you are so worried about Paul and a Roman pagan plot, I suggest you worry more about al Hajar al-Aswad the Arab pagan rock you bow to and why Mohamed incorporated a pagan practice into his new religion.

 

Abu Loren Said

This is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

My Reply

It’s a historical fact (Paul was not an agent of the Roman Empire. He was imprisoned and executed by the Roman Empire) Read Ephesians 6:20 and you will see he was in prison chains.

The early writer Ignatius, probably around 110, writes that Paul was martyred. According to Christian tradition, Paul was beheaded in Rome during the reign of Nero around the mid-60s at Tre Fontane Abbey.

Your version of events based on a new religion that emerged 600 years later so has no credibility.

 
Abu Loren Said

No problem. Modern scholars including Christians are confirming this fact. Just search for it on the internet. When and where was I PROVEN wrong?

My Reply

Im not interested in internet conspiracy theories. Im interested in facts and in relation to the Council of Nicea here are the facts and I challenge you to refute them!

The New testament was written approximately from 55Ad to 100Ad. Nicea was 325AD. More than 300 years later !

The New testament was firmly established before Nicea and no decisions were made at Nicea as to what would be included in the bible. All they discussed was the meaning of “God the Son” and the date of Easter.

For the Emperor Constantine to add and subtract words is ridiculous. The Christian world  extended from Britain in the west to  Armenia in the north  half way down the coast of East Africa in the south and all the way to China and India in the east.

There was no one powerful enough to seize every single copy of the New Testament in every church in the world to falsify the New Testament.

Also it would mean forcibly changing the practices and beliefs of Christians from around the world.

Also they would have to remove all traces of the original New Testament. Not only were there the copies of the New Testament, but many writers had already quoted extensively from it in the first, second and third centuries. We know of over 32,000 of these quotations.

To make the new New Testament accepted, the conspirators would have had to force believers to adopt new customs and ceremonies such as communion (symbolic of the crucifixion of Jesus), baptism (symbolic of the forgiveness of sins in Christ), and religious belief in the Cross. What were the older ceremonies? Why do we have no record of them?

 

These are the facts about the Council of Nicea and I challenge you to refute them.

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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2012 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Experiential.

I do not know why and how you do not see to reason and commonsense. Without friction will there be motion?
Moses did not live with the Christians assumed followers of Jesus. Jesus lived  most of his life in Galilee where he performed 25 of his 33 miracles. Jesus and Moses did not live in Arabia lest their Message is known.
You will never believe that Muhammad governed the Levi clan of the Children of Israel in Madina and the Christians in Najran. Heraclius surrendered and advised the Romans to do the same. What happened is available for those with an unbiased mind to learn.  The only Messenger of Allah with vast experience of tolerance and how to live with mankind is Muhammad Rasulullah.
Understand that I am not calling or advocating to follow the examples of Muslim Arabs, Pakistanis, Indians or any tribe. I am advocating for following the way of Muhammad. If you will lead in his practice you will be followed. You will certainly rule the Muslim world.
I do not know what your position is in your earthquake ravaged cathedral. I am sure you will fail in uniting the Christians.
Your statement: and that Christians deny the Torahs prophesy’s that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity and then recite the shada. I don’t think so! is false for according to Reverend Matthew Henry the covenant of grace involves the recompense of singular services.
Friendship.


 

Hello Friendship. Below is a Mathew Henry commentary on the death and resurrection of Jesus The Messiah.

 

“The word resurrection, usually points out our existence beyond the grave. Of the apostle's doctrine not a trace can be found in all the teaching of philosophers. The doctrine of Christ's death and resurrection, is the foundation of Christianity. Remove this, and all our hopes for eternity sink at once.”

Mathew Henry

http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=46&c=15

 

God Bless



Edited by Experiential - 10 October 2012 at 3:48pm
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2012 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Experiential.

You said: Friendship what bothers me is that Muslims pick and choose New Testament scriptures that suit them, and their arrogance that they think they know the Christian scriptures better than Christians.

Response: I swear by the G-d and Lord of Abraham that I know the New Testament better than the Archbishop of any High ranking of your ravaged Cathedral. The New Testament ideally should consist of only what was revealed to Jesus son of Maryam conforming to what was revealed to Moses and what was allowed in his time as an extension of the oral law. Jesus son of Maryam never knew of his inclusion as the son of G-d of Abraham and all what was attributed to him.  Jesus never knew when Maryam was put under the custody of Zacharius or how he was born. We are certainly proud to be told of the true form of Jesus and we shall not negotiate with that. We  are responsible to what Allah revealed to Muhammad in that what He revealed to Jesus.
Friendship.

Friendship Said

Response: I swear by the G-d and Lord of Abraham that I know the New Testament better than the Archbishop of any High ranking of your ravaged Cathedral.

My Reply

Yeah sure. And I know the Quran better than your Ayatollah !

 

Friendship Said

The New Testament ideally should consist of only what was revealed to Jesus son of Maryam conforming to what was revealed to Moses and what was allowed in his time as an extension of the oral law.

My Reply

Friendship. What qualifies you to know what should be in the New testament? The New Testament we currently have is the same Injil Mohamed had?

Anyway if you believe that The New Testament should only consist of only what was revealed to Jesus son of Maryam conforming to what was revealed to Moses and what was allowed in his time as an extension of the oral law, then

you will see that Jesus was the Messiah that gave his life for the salvation of humanity.

 

Friendship Said

 Jesus son of Maryam never knew of his inclusion as the son of G-d of Abraham and all what was attributed to him.  Jesus never knew when Maryam was put under the custody of Zacharius or how he was born. We are certainly proud to be told of the true form of Jesus and we shall not negotiate with that. We  are responsible to what Allah revealed to Muhammad in that what He revealed to Jesus.

My Reply

Why should I believe Mohamads version that came 6oo years after the eye witness New testament accounts?

 

God Bless

 

 

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