Mahdi Said

Experiential, you are simply making excuses for Peter. There is nothing for Peter to fear if Jesus told him to go to all nations. So he is more afraid of criticism from his fellow disciples than his master.

My Reply

Hello Mahdi. Read Mark 14.69, Luke 22.54 Mathew 26.73 and John 18.13 and you will see what a coward Peter could be. He even denied knowing Jesus!

 Mahdi Said

That raises another question. Why would his fellow disciples(i.e James) object to him associating with gentiles if he was following Jesus instructions to teach all creation?

My Reply

But Mahdi, James did support Paul going to the gentiles! See The Book of Acts 15.13 -30.

Also here are some other verses that show the Church leaders eg. Peter and John etc agreed with Paul to go to the gentiles-

Peter refers how they (gentiles) used to be pagans - 1Peter 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 

Peter said he supported Paul in 2Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 

John (not Paul) said in 1John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 

John (not Paul) said in 1John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 

John (not Paul) said in 2John 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 

Peter (not Paul) quoting the Old testament prophet Joel said in Thre Book of Act 2:17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 

And Peter (not Paul) said in Act 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call." 

Also remember other church leaders like Mathew, Mark and  Luke would not have written the words of Jesus to go to the gentiles if they did not believe it themselves.

Mahdi Said

Even when visiting Cornelius, Peter did not say that 'Jesus told us to teach all nations' but refers to a vision.

My Reply

Yes it was after the vision, but Peter would still have refused to act on the vision if Jesus had never said to go to the gentiles.

 Besides there are plenty of examples where the disciples didn’t understand what Jesus was saying until later. For example at first they thought Jesus as the Messiah would be a military ruler.

Mahdi Said

Jesus never told his disciples to go first to Jews then gentiles. Quote the appropriate scripture if i am wrong.

My Reply.

OK. Here they are.

Luke 24:46.  “He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 

Luke 24:47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”

Acts 1:7. “He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. “

Acts 1:8 “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." 

Peter (not Paul ) said in Act 3:25 “And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'

And again Peter (not Paul) said in Act 11:17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" 

Mahdi Said

What I am trying to establish is that based on the behavior of the disciples in the verses I quoted, Jesus never instructed them to teach 'all creation' as in Matthew 28:18. The evidence is consistent with statements in Matthew 10:5-6 and Matthew 15:24.

My Reply

I think from the above verses it is obvious. First to the Jew and then to the gentile.

Abu Loren Said

I don't know if you know anything about the Mosaic Law it is completely 'Jewishness' which Paul said is no longer required as the alleged death of Jesus (pbuh) was enough to close that covenant. Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim as he had submitted fully to God the Almighty. I reallydon't know what Paul was.

My Reply

In regards to the Old Covenant (Mosaic law) and the New Covenant the prophet Jeremiah talks about the New Covenant –

 “But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. “Jeremiah 31:33

Jesus said “Do not think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil the law.” Matthew 5:17

Jesus took the cup of wine and said, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.” (Luke 22:20).

With Jesus' birth, life, death, and resurrection the Old Covenant was fulfilled and a new covenant was instituted.

The Injil says, “At the moment of Jesus' death on the cross, states that the veil (separating the entrance to the holy of holies) of the Temple was ripped from top to bottom, symbolizing that with Jesus death there was no longer a need for the temple (and the old Jewish religious rituals).”

Matthew 27:51

To say Jesus was a Muslim is ridiculous. How could he be a Muslim when he was born 600 years before the new religion of Mohammad. And don’t try playing with word meanings that it was because he was “submitted” to God. That’s just word games and twisting meaning.

Beside the Quran contradicts itself as to who was the first Muslim. Was it Moses? Was it other believers at the time of Moses? Was it  pharaohs magicians? was it Mohammad? Was it Noah ? or was it Adam ?

 Abu Loren Said

Mohammed (pbuh) was not a Jew has nothing to do with anything. He was a direct descendant of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh) who was also a Muslim. I don't know if you know or if you are aware but God Almighty had promised 'His friend' Prophet Abraham (pbuh) that all the prophets who would follow him would be his descendants. So no change there.

My Reply

Mohammad did not understand the Jewish foundation that Christianity is based on. How could Ishmael be a Muslim before the new religion of Mohammad. And Ishmael was of the line of Hagar, the slave woman, not of the free woman Sarah and Gods blessing and promise to Isaac. As a result he brings a slave religion and not the heritage to ever lasting life.

They (Peter, James, Judas etc) were all Muslims and there is no evidence that they supported Paul, in fact there are indications in the New Testament of the friction between the two factions.

My Reply

They (Peter, James, Judas etc) were not Muslims. To say they were Muslims is ridiculous. How could they be Muslims when they was born 600 years before the new religion of Mohammad. And don’t try playing with word meanings that it was because he was “submitted” to God. That’s just word play.

Beside your Quran contradicts itself as to who was the first Muslim. Was it Moses? Was it other believers at time of Moses? Was it  pharaohs magicians? Was it Mohammad? Was it Noah ? or was it Adam ?

If you want evidence they supported Paul read The Book of Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.

Abu Loren Said

'Jew' and 'Jewishness' are labels that the Children of Israel stuck on themselves. So 'Jew' and 'Jewishness' has no bearing on anything.

My Reply

Ultimately it goes back to the descendents of Abraham. The Jews go back to the free woman Sarah and Gods blessing and promise to Isaac, not the line of Hagar the slave woman and her son Ishmael. As a result Jews and Christians are not of Hagars slave religion.

Abu Loren Said

The writings (Injil) do differ, if you examine it closely then you will see that there are many contradictions because people tried to change what was written originally. They needed to do this to support their new found idealogy of the Trinity and Jesus (pbuh) being the lamb that was lead to the slaughter.

My Reply

In regards to Jesus as the “Lamb of God” there are prophesies and verses in the Torah and Injil that refer to The Messiah being offered as a “sacrificial lamb”. For example-

In the Torah Gods forgiveness is based on atonement or cleansing / forgiveness through the shedding of blood with animal sacrifice at the temple. This animal sacrifice and festivals such as The Passover Festival and Yom Kipper (Day of Atonement) Festival are symbolic of the death and resurrection of Jesus .

Also in the Torah prophesies point to The Messiah dying–

Piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)

Being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)

Praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)

Piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)

In the Injil you have verses like –

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

John 1:29.

"Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'" Matthew 26:27-28

“This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” John 6:50-59

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Mark 10:45

Notice Paul wrote none of the above verses. And in regards to you saying people changing what was written in the Injil, Muslims have never been able to prove what the original Injil was before any tampering.

Prove to me where in the Quaran it says man tampered with the Injil. I asked you to do this before and all you could produce was something about monks and monasteries.

In regards to the Trinity, Paul never used the word and you will find it nowhere in the bible. Just to make it clear, Christians believe in only ONE God. However there are many verses in the Torah and Injil that refer to that ONE God having more than one aspect and more specifically three aspects to his oneness.

Paul and the other writers of the Injil lived at the time of Jesus (pbuh) and started to write after thirty or fourty years after his Ascension. Muhammed (pbuh) lived as you have said 600 years after the Ascension of Jesus (pbuh) and was chosen because the Injil was corrupted by the hands of men. So it makes sense why the final revelations was given to the final messenger to mankind.

My Reply

Prove it was corrupted. You cant. Your attempt at the Council of Nicea argument has already failed. And besides why believe something written 600 years after the fact.

Not true. The alleged prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) hangs on a few verses from Isiah allegedly a prophecy about Jesus (pbuh) but it only becomes a propecy of Jesus (pbuh) only by association. If you associate that Jesus (pbuh) was tortured and killed on the cross. Muhammed (pbuh) was prophecied in the OT as well as the NT. The Holy Qur'an confirms this fact.

My Reply.

A few verses from Isaiah only! Really?  I don’t think so! Here they are -

Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)

A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)

Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14)

Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)

Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)

Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)

Herod´s killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)

Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)

Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)

Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)

Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)

Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16) Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)

Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)

Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)

Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)

Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:

rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)

betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)

sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)

silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)

being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)

beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)

spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)

piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)

being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)

praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)

piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)

given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)

no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)

buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)

casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)

Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)

Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)

Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)

Far too many to just be by association. Prove to me that Mohammad was prophesied in the Torah.

Abu Loren Said

Sorry I had have a quiet laugh at this statement. Christians in no way resemble the Jews as Christianity is a Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology.

My Reply

Of course Christians don’t resemble the Jews in terms of their outward religion. I am not a Jew, I and have no desire to be. What’s more there is nothing in the Injil that require me to look like a Jew culturally or be Jewish in my outward behavior. However the foundation to my relationship with God is based on Jewish promises, prophesies and heritage.

I challenge you to prove to me that Christianity is a Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology.  You have mentioned the Trinity and Jesus as the sacrifial lamb of God but if you see my above response you will see they are based on the Torah and Injil.

As mentioned if you are so worried about Paul and a Roman pagan plot, I suggest you worry more about al Hajar al-Aswad the Arab pagan rock you bow to and why Mohamed incorporated a pagan practice into his new religion.

Abu Loren Said

This is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

My Reply

It’s a historical fact (Paul was not an agent of the Roman Empire. He was imprisoned and executed by the Roman Empire) Read Ephesians 6:20 and you will see he was in prison chains.

The early writer Ignatius, probably around 110, writes that Paul was martyred. According to Christian tradition, Paul was beheaded in Rome during the reign of Nero around the mid-60s at Tre Fontane Abbey.

Your version of events based on a new religion that emerged 600 years later so has no credibility.

No problem. Modern scholars including Christians are confirming this fact. Just search for it on the internet. When and where was I PROVEN wrong?

My Reply

Im not interested in internet conspiracy theories. Im interested in facts and in relation to the Council of Nicea here are the facts and I challenge you to refute them!

The New testament was written approximately from 55Ad to 100Ad. Nicea was 325AD. More than 300 years later !

The New testament was firmly established before Nicea and no decisions were made at Nicea as to what would be included in the bible. All they discussed was the meaning of “God the Son” and the date of Easter.

For the Emperor Constantine to add and subtract words is ridiculous. The Christian world  extended from Britain in the west to  Armenia in the north  half way down the coast of East Africa in the south and all the way to China and India in the east.

There was no one powerful enough to seize every single copy of the New Testament in every church in the world to falsify the New Testament.

Also it would mean forcibly changing the practices and beliefs of Christians from around the world.

Also they would have to remove all traces of the original New Testament. Not only were there the copies of the New Testament, but many writers had already quoted extensively from it in the first, second and third centuries. We know of over 32,000 of these quotations.

To make the new New Testament accepted, the conspirators would have had to force believers to adopt new customs and ceremonies such as communion (symbolic of the crucifixion of Jesus), baptism (symbolic of the forgiveness of sins in Christ), and religious belief in the Cross. What were the older ceremonies? Why do we have no record of them?

These are the facts about the Council of Nicea and I challenge you to refute them.

Friendship Said

Response: I swear by the G-d and Lord of Abraham that I know the New Testament better than the Archbishop of any High ranking of your ravaged Cathedral.

My Reply

Yeah sure. And I know the Quran better than your Ayatollah !

Friendship Said

The New Testament ideally should consist of only what was revealed to Jesus son of Maryam conforming to what was revealed to Moses and what was allowed in his time as an extension of the oral law.

My Reply

Friendship. What qualifies you to know what should be in the New testament? The New Testament we currently have is the same Injil Mohamed had?

Anyway if you believe that The New Testament should only consist of only what was revealed to Jesus son of Maryam conforming to what was revealed to Moses and what was allowed in his time as an extension of the oral law, then

you will see that Jesus was the Messiah that gave his life for the salvation of humanity.

Friendship Said

 Jesus son of Maryam never knew of his inclusion as the son of G-d of Abraham and all what was attributed to him.  Jesus never knew when Maryam was put under the custody of Zacharius or how he was born. We are certainly proud to be told of the true form of Jesus and we shall not negotiate with that. We  are responsible to what Allah revealed to Muhammad in that what He revealed to Jesus.

My Reply

Why should I believe Mohamads version that came 6oo years after the eye witness New testament accounts?

God Bless