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Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES Post Reply Post New Topic
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2012 at 1:24am
What JESUS SAID PT 1
Matt 10:5-6)
Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Matthew 15:24) He (Jesus) replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

WHAT JESUS SAID PT2
Matthew28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Are the above complimentary or contradictory? Let us look at some more information.

Matthew 10:23

English Standard Version (ESV)

23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Maybe all nations = Israel




Galatians 2:11-13 New Living Translation (NLT) Paul Confronts Peter 11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him
to his face, for what he did
was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the
Gentile Christians, who were
not circumcised. But
afterward, when some friends
of James came, Peter wouldn’t
eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from
these people who insisted on
the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter’s
hypocrisy, and even Barnabas
was led astray by their
hypocrisy.

Having been instructed by Jesus to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid to be seen with gentiles? The evidence shows he never heard this instruction


ACTS 10: 27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a
large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against
our law for a Jew to associate
with or visit a Gentile. But God
has shown me that I should
not call anyone impure or
unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without
raising any objection. May I
ask why you sent for me?

Even after Jesus tells him to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid of breaking Jewish laws. He does not say 'Jesus instructed us to preach to all nations' so once again evidence shows he never heard this instruction



Galatians 2:7-9

New International Version (NIV)

7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,[a> just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas[c> and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

In spite of Jesus instructions, the disciples only go to the circumcised and entrust Paul to Gentiles. So much for all creation.


So people, based on the evidence, give a verdict. Did Jesus instruct his disciples to 'all creation'?

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 01 October 2012 at 1:45am
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2012 at 1:26am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assaalamu alaika Experiential.
 
Question: Is the Torah not a circular argument? then the Qur'an must be a circular argument becuase it confirms what is in it.
Request: I will be glad to learn from you such contradictions provided you will follow the rules and regulations in explaining the Qur'an. Note there is different between translation and explaining the Qur'an.
I will tell you my experience with a Jew later.
 
Friend. 

While similarities exist (as they do any religion) some very fundamental contradictions between Judaism and Islam exist.

For example –

The most important fundamental difference is that Judaism is based on animal sacrifice. Blood for blood, of which is symbolic of what Jesus would later achieve.  Islam is not based on this.

The two important  Jewish festivals of Yom Kippur (The Day of Atonement)  and Pesakh (Passover ) are based on animal sacrifice. Again Jesus as the promised messiah ended the need for all animal sacrifice.

Other differences are

The Old Testament prophesies point to Jesus not Mohamad.

Also in Judaism freedom and truth will come through the line of the free woman and her son Sarah and Isaac not the slave woman Hagar and her son Ishmael.

Muslims believe in One God. Jews believe in One God with many aspects.

Jews worship God through their temple (although it is gone now) and in their belief in making sacrifice,

Also the al-ajar al-Aswad at Mecca certainly does not fit with Jewish thinking as Muslims would be seen as trying to worship God by bowing to a pagan rock.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2012 at 1:27am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assaalamu alaika Experirntial.
 
Let us be fair to written history believed to be indellible. We read that the Christian king in Ethiopia, Abbysinia gave refuge to the 25 or so persecuted followers of Muhammad for Muhammad commanded them to go the land of a Christian king where no one is wrongly dealt with. That was his confession.  It is unfair that knowledge is not spoken by the Christians. Also the party that came to Muhammad during the the period of deputation was well documented. When they were to leave they asked Muhammad to give them one of his people to settle their disputes. He sent Ibn Jarrah who stayed with the Christian Najran for about 9 months. I do no have the literaure confirming your assertion. My appeal to you is the universal appeal from Allah- Do not hide the truth. There is no compulsion in Islam. 
 
Friendship. 

Why should the Ethiopian King be spoken of by Christians? While it is interesting it is insignificant.

Regarding the Najran Christians see the link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_community_of_Najran

“However, in time they resisted the preaching’s of Islam; and as a penalty, they were forcibly expelled from the town of their forefathers.[7]”



Edited by Experiential - 01 October 2012 at 1:27am
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2012 at 1:30am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.
 
The language Jesus spread his Message is not spoken universally today. I do not find contradiction or controversy from the Jewish Rabbi. If there is contradiction and controversy in the Qur'an it is from those who are self-centered, biased with an agenda of assumption of superiority and not knowledgeable in Arabic language and the history of Islam.
What is the original hebrew/aramaic word meaning gentiles? What was the reason behind using the word? Was the word ever used by a prophet before Jesus son of Maryam?
 
Friendship.

 

Friendship Said

The language Jesus spread his Message is not spoken universally today.

My Reply

So what if the language Jesus used is not spoken universally today ? Do you think God would be so small to limit himself to only one language like Arabic ( which even many Muslims do not speak)

 

 Friendship Said

I do not find contradiction or controversy from the Jewish Rabbi. If there is contradiction and controversy in the Qur'an it is from those who are self-centered, biased with an agenda of assumption of superiority and not knowledgeable in Arabic language and the history of Islam.

My Reply

Its funny you should say that, because that’s how I feel about Muslims. Look at the ridiculous beginning to this thread as an example of a Muslim being self-centered, biased with an agenda of assumption of superiority and not knowledgeable in Hebrew / Greek language and the history of Israel and Christianity.

 

Friendship Said

What is the original Hebrew / Aramaic word meaning gentiles? What was the reason behind using the word? Was the word ever used by a prophet before Jesus son of Maryam?

My Reply

The word “Gentile” is a Latin / English translation for the Hebrew word “Gowy” which usually means “ of other nations not of the Hebrew people. It is used a lot in the Old Testament. eg. Jeremiah 32.20. and is often used as keeping the Hebrew / Jewish people pure from idol worship and paganism.

 



Edited by Experiential - 01 October 2012 at 1:31am
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2012 at 2:16am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Mahdi,It seems you missed my reply since you did not answer my questions but included me with the above, but I have quoted no verses.  Thanks.
So what then do you say about the gentiles?
What do you think is meant to happen to the gentiles?
How is it that they have come to God?  and are you saying it doesn't count?Thanks,Caringheart

I have no opinion on 'Gentiles'. Your logic seems to be that
Christianity has to be right otherwise 'Gentiles' have no hope. So you
will rationalize everything no matter how absurd, farfetched or
outlandish the explanation may be in order to retain a feeling of
security. Even if you find any aspect of christianity problematic and
unresolvable, you will think 'there has to be an explanation otherwise
my salvation is lost. i wont go to heaven .it just has to be right' and
then ignore the issue. If you want to discuss 'Gentiles' you can start
a different topic so we do not stray from the topic at hand.Mahdi
Greetings Mahdi,This is not my rationale... it does seem to be your rationale.These sound like arguments you may have heard against Islam, that you try to turn around on others.What is the point of your thread?Who do you think the Christians are?They are the gentiles.The gentiles are the "Christians you are not Israelites".And
truly some Christians are Israelites.  Jesus taught to the Jews.  There
were Jews who believed in Him.  The original Apostles were Jewish...
i.e., Israelites.  Unless you have a different definition for Israelite?salaam,Caringheart


1.Gentiles are christians who are not israelites?really?
2.The point of my thread is to prove that Jesus was sent only to Israelites.
3.Tell me what your rationale is for asking your questions.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2012 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke


So what then do you say about the gentiles?
What do you think is meant to happen to the gentiles?
How is it that they have come to God?  and are you saying it doesn't count?           Thanks,Caringheart
What is the point of your thread?
Who do you think the Christians are?
They are the gentiles.
The gentiles are the "Christians you are not Israelites".
And truly some Christians are Israelites.  Jesus taught to the Jews.  There were Jews who believed in Him.  The original Apostles were Jewish... i.e., Israelites. 
Unless you have a different definition for Israelite?           salaam,Caringheart

1.Gentiles are christians who are not israelites?really?
2.The point of my thread is to prove that Jesus was sent only to Israelites.
3.Tell me what your rationale is for asking your questions.


"Christians you are not Israelites"... in quotes... the title of your thread

The reason for my questions is that I am simply trying to figure out the point of your thread.
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2012 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

What JESUS SAID PT 1
Matt 10:5-6)
Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Matthew 15:24) He (Jesus) replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

WHAT JESUS SAID PT2
Matthew28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Are the above complimentary or contradictory? Let us look at some more information.

Matthew 10:23

English Standard Version (ESV)

23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Maybe all nations = Israel




Galatians 2:11-13 New Living Translation (NLT) Paul Confronts Peter 11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him
to his face, for what he did
was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the
Gentile Christians, who were
not circumcised. But
afterward, when some friends
of James came, Peter wouldn’t
eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from
these people who insisted on
the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter’s
hypocrisy, and even Barnabas
was led astray by their
hypocrisy.

Having been instructed by Jesus to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid to be seen with gentiles? The evidence shows he never heard this instruction


ACTS 10: 27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a
large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against
our law for a Jew to associate
with or visit a Gentile. But God
has shown me that I should
not call anyone impure or
unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without
raising any objection. May I
ask why you sent for me?

Even after Jesus tells him to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid of breaking Jewish laws. He does not say 'Jesus instructed us to preach to all nations' so once again evidence shows he never heard this instruction



Galatians 2:7-9

New International Version (NIV)

7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,[a> just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas[c> and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

In spite of Jesus instructions, the disciples only go to the circumcised and entrust Paul to Gentiles. So much for all creation.


So people, based on the evidence, give a verdict. Did Jesus instruct his disciples to 'all creation'?
 
Mahdi Said

What JESUS SAID PT 1

Matt 10:5-6)

Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Matthew 15:24) He (Jesus) replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

WHAT JESUS SAID PT2

Matthew28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

 

Are the above complimentary or contradictory?

My Reply

Complimentary.

 

Mahdi Said

Let us look at some more information. Matthew 10:23

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Maybe all nations = Israel

My Reply

Mahdi. Its true -  they actually did not go through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man came, because the Son of Man did come -  after his resurrection.

 

Mahdi Said

Galatians 2:11-13. Paul Confronts Peter but when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile Christians, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision.  As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.

 

Having been instructed by Jesus to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid to be seen with gentiles? The evidence shows he never heard this instruction.

My Reply

No. It shows Peter was afraid himself of preaching to the gentiles because he was a Jew – not that he hadn’t heard it or that he didn’t support other people doing it.

 Read Gal 2:9 and you will see. “They (Peter) agreed that we (Paul) should go to the Gentiles, and they (Peter) to the Jews.”

Peter would not have agreed if he didn’t think the gentiles should be preached to. 

 

Mahdi Said

Galatians 2:7-9 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

 

In spite of Jesus instructions, the disciples only go to the circumcised and entrust Paul to Gentiles. So much for all creation.

My Reply

As a Jew Peter was afraid himself of preaching to the gentiles but he agreed that Paul should go to the Gentiles. Peter understood – first to the Jews and then to the non Jew.

Peter knew he himself had to finish the work to the Jews while at the same time he supported others such as Paul going to the gentiles.

There were others of Jesus twelve apostles who also went to the gentiles. For example Thomas went to the gentiles in India.

 

Mahdi Said

So people, based on the evidence, give a verdict. Did Jesus instruct his disciples to 'all creation'?

My Reply

yes 

 

Mahdi Said

ACTS 10: 27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate

with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?

 

Even after Jesus tells him to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid of breaking Jewish laws. He does not say 'Jesus instructed us to preach to all nations' so once again evidence shows he never heard this instruction.

My Reply

Actually you are wrong. Peter said in Acts 10:34 -36 "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.  You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.”

Also Peter in Acts 10 did go to the house of Cornelius the Roman gentile. He wouldn’t have done that if he believed Jesus message was only to the Jews What it shows is that Peter as a strong Jew was afraid or hesitant and he believed first to the Jew and then later to the gentile. It was the timing he was not sure about, and whether it should be him that should do it or some one else .

 

In conclusion Peter understood, first to the Jews and then to the non Jew. Peter knew he had to finish the work to the Jews while at the same time he supported others such as Paul going to the gentiles.

You are simply picking and choosing your verses to support your own beliefs. Read the verses in context.

 

 

 

 

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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2012 at 3:20am
Originally posted by Caringheart


"Christians you are not Israelites"... in quotes... the title of your threadThe reason for my questions is that I am simply trying to figure out the point of your thread.


If I may be permitted to answer. You and many Christians are really confused to say the least. You seem to believe that you have something in common with Jews and Judaism.

Let me explain once more for you....Paul took away the 'Jewishness' when he defeated the true disciples of Jesus (pbuh). He suppressed the teachings of Peter and became an adversary, then using his authority as a Pharisees and a Roman citizen he went on an all out assault on the true followers of Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples. Then Paul claimed to have a 'vision' of the risen Jesus (pbuh) when he wasn't even crucified. Crucifxion then became Crucifiction and a completely new religion was born with Roman paganism thrown in to the mix. This new religion spread throughout the Empire and everybody was happy.

Therefore, Christians are NOT ISRAELITES!
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