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Mahdi The Seeke
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Posted: 19 November 2012 at 9:33am

I challenge you to provide an
ethical teaching from the
Quran higher than this …
“You have heard that it was
said, ‘Love your neighbor[a]
and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and
pray for those who persecute
you..

“O ye who believe! stand
out firmly for Allah, as
witnesses to fair dealing,
and let not the hatred of
others to you make you
swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just:
that is next to piety: and
fear Allah. For Allah is well-
acquainted with all that ye
do.” (Surah Al Ma’idah 5:8)

“As to the Righteous, they
shall drink of a Cup (of
Wine) mixed with Kafur,-
A Fountain where the
Devotees of Allah do drink,
making it flow in unstinted abundance. They perform
(their) vows, and they fear
a Day whose evil flies far
and wide. And they feed,
for the love of Allah, the
indigent, the orphan, and the captive,- (Saying),”We
feed you for the sake of
Allah alone: no reward do
we desire from you, nor
thanks.” (Surah Al Insan 76:5-9)

Qur'an: Surah 90 Al-Balad
(The City) Nay, I swear by this city... We
verily have created man in an
atmosphere... But he hath not
attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee
what the Ascent is! It is to
free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near
of kin, Or some poor wretch in
misery. And to be of those
who believe and exhort one
another to perseverance and
exhort one another to pity.

Qur'an 2:177 Surah Al-
Baqarah (The Cow) It is not righteousness that ye
turn your faces to the East and
the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and
the Scripture and the Prophets;
and giveth his wealth, for love
of Him, to kinsfolk and to
orphans and the needy and the
wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship
and payeth the poor due. And
those who keep their treaty
when they make one, and the
patient in tribulation and
adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere.
Such are the God fearing.

Quran 002.280 If the debtor is in a difficulty, grant him time Till it is easy for him to repay. But if ye remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew.

Quran
005.045 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light
of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers

Quran
003.092 By no means shall ye attain righteousness unless ye give (freely) of that which ye love; and whatever ye give, of a truth Allah knoweth it well.

"As for the orphan, do not oppress him; and as for the beggar, turn him not away." (Qur'an 93:9)

Quran
"Repel evil with what
is best, when lo! he
between whom and
you there is enmity
will be like a warm
friend." (41:34)

Quran

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Mahdi The Seeke
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Posted: 19 November 2012 at 10:00am

Originally posted by Experiential

Mahdi Said<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

1.Answer my question.

2.Reinterpret your own version of the Bible to justify your translation otherwise you are making baseless claims. Have you even read the verse?

Matthew 15:26 King James Bible (<?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Cambridge</st1:place></st1:City> Ed.) But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Please, if you want to engage in serious discussions, desist from making such baseless arguments. DOG is the word.

How are dogs described in old testament. One example

have surrounded me;

a gang of evildoers has closed

in on me; they pierced my

hands and my feet. Psalm 22:16

My Reply<o:p></o:p>

OK then. The Hebrew word for ‘dog’ in Psalm 22:16 is -

כלב (keleb)<o:p></o:p>

Meaning - <o:p></o:p>

a) dog (literal)

b) contempt or abasement (fig.)

<o:p> </o:p>

While in Matthew 15:26 the word in the Greek is κυνάριον kynarion

Meaning –

little dog, or puppy.

<o:p> </o:p>

Now perhaps you can explain how the Quran interprets non Muslims as donkeys, dogs, beasts, swine and apes.

<o:p> </o:p>

And that is why the Bible scholars used 'dog'. Quran holds everybody to the same standards and does not discriminate based on race/tribe/nation.

Are you resorting to blatant lies because you are ashamed of what is written in the Bible?

κυνάριον (kynarion, 2952) Meanings dogs Greek-English Concordance: 4
verses Greek (NLG) English (NLT) Matt.15:26 26ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς
εἶπεν, Οὐκ
ἔστιν καλὸν
λαβεῖν τὸν
ἄρτον τῶν
τέκνων καὶ βαλεῖν τοῖς κυναρίοις. 26 Jesus
responded ,
“ It isn’t
right to
take food
from the children
and throw
it to the dogs . ” Matt.15:27 27ἡ δὲ εἶπεν, Ναί,
κύριε, καὶ
γὰρ τὰ κυνάρια ἐσθίει ἀπὸ
τῶν ψιχίων
τῶν
πιπτόντων
ἀπὸ τῆς
τραπέζης τῶν κυρίων
αὐτῶν. 27 She
replied , “
That’s
true , Lord ,
but even dogs are
allowed to
eat the
scraps that
fall
beneath their
masters'
table . ” Mark.7:27 27καὶ ἔλεγεν
αὐτῇ, ̓Άφες
πρῶτον
χορτασθῆναι
τὰ τέκνα. οὐ
γάρ ἐστιν καλὸν
λαβεῖν τὸν
ἄρτον τῶν
τέκνων καὶ
τοῖς κυναρίοις βαλεῖν. 27 Jesus
told her , “
First I
should feed
the
children — my own
family , the
Jews .
* It isn’t
right to
take food from the
children
and throw
it to the dogs . ” Mark.7:28 28ἡ δὲ ἀπεκρίθη
καὶ λέγει
αὐτῷ, Ναί,
κύριε, καὶ
τὰ κυνάρια ὑποκάτω
τῆς τραπέζης
ἐσθίουσιν
ἀπὸ τῶν
ψιχίων τῶν
παιδίων. 28 She
replied , “
That’s
true , Lord ,
but even
the dogs under the
table are
allowed to
eat the
scraps
from the children’s
plates . ”

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 19 November 2012 at 10:16am

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Caringheart

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Posted: 19 November 2012 at 12:18pm

Originally posted by Larry

Mahdi,

   The problem you have here is that the Old Testament and the Qur'an have their teachings rooted in the past and they are not very easily adaptable to the modern world. We Christians follow the New Covenant with God, the New Testament of Jesus Christ, that superseded the Old Testament and is highly relevant and adaptable to the modern world, which is illustrated by the civilizations of the Western World with all their technology and advancements, especially in the equality of men and women and the protections of the laws in which everyone is equal in standing. There is a great and discernable difference between the cultures of the Western world, Europe and America in particular, and the cultures of the Islamic world, particularly in the Middle East. The West is characterized by a more modern and adaptable way of life in contrast to almost all the Arabic countries of the Middle East that are constantly at war with each other, Sunnis and Shia's, each calling the other apostates. Even a casual look at what is happening in the Islamic Middle East today and what is happening in the West is sufficient to see that there is a great deal of difference between them. The main problem that exists in the cultures of the Middle East is that they combine secular government with religion, particularly when they implement Sharia as the basis of their laws and statutes. The strength of the West lies in the separation of religion and state. Laws are built on the concept of precedent and settled law, not on religious teachings. Religions are protected and have absolute rights to their beliefs, but they don't have the right to impose their religious beliefs on other members of society. That is why in the United States, in particular, all religions are permitted to coexist with each other, which they do successfully, such as Christians (Catholic and Protestant), Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Native American, etc.

   In Matthew 22:17-21,
   17. "Tell us (the Pharisees asked Jesus), therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
   18. "But Jesus [perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?"
   19. "Show me the tax money." So they brought Him a denarius."
   20. "And He said to them, "Whose image and inscription is this?"
   21. "They said to Him, "Caesar's." And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

   So Jesus was telling them that there is a secular world and a religious world that can exist at the same time, without being joined. Whenever God is mixed with the secular and political affairs of this world there are always problems because no one knows where one stops and another begins. And there are always differences and difficulties between the various religions, such as is seen in the modern Middle East where Jews and Christians and Muslims do not share the same ideas and beliefs, and this is what leads to all the religious conflicts seen between the different faiths. In Saudi Arabia, for example, no other religion other than Islam is permitted. If Islam is declared to be the "state religion" where does that leave Jews and Christians, as well as other faiths, in the affairs of those nations? They will always be considered as "second class" citizens since they do not accept Islam as the "only true religion." Only by separating the religious and secular worlds is it possible to have a society in which all the citizens enjoy the same rights and responsibilities, and no one can force their religions on others who do not share their faith.

Larry

"The strength of the West lies in the separation of religion and state. Laws are built on the concept of precedent and settled law, not on religious teachings."

Hi Larry,

I would like to add some clarification to this statement, from my point of view.

I believe the strength of the west lies precisely in the fact that it is built on a solid Christian foundation, which includes separation of church and state and free will to choose... the freedom for all to practice their own religion. But the basis of our law, constitution, and democracy comes from Christian teaching. It is precisely Christianity that teaches equality for all. At times in the past the west has not always adhered to that principle but thankfully they have progressed. And in truth, the native American way of life was, and has been, oppressed. Thankfully there are endeavors today to amend that. The native Americans are renewing their traditions while at the same time seeing the wisdom of progress.

The rest of your post I am in complete agreement with. Smile

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Caringheart

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Posted: 19 November 2012 at 12:23pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Luke was an eye witness? Yes or no.

Greetings Mahdi,Luke was recording what was believed and reported (i.e., the testimony) of the eye witnesses. (This would be like a court recorder who records the eye witness testimony at trials)1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,2 Even as they ... which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; [delivered them unto us]3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.Salaam,CH

So, NO.

Greetings Mahdi,

and so...
Would you discount those things recorded by a court recorder who records eye witness testimony at trials?

CH

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Larry
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Posted: 20 November 2012 at 12:10am

Originally posted by Caringheart

"The strength of the West lies in the separation of religion and state. Laws are built on the concept of precedent and settled law, not on religious teachings."Hi Larry,I would like to add some clarification to this statement, from my point of view. I believe the strength of the west lies precisely in the fact that it is built on a solid Christian foundation, which includes separation of church and state and free will to choose... the freedom for all to practice their own religion. But the basis of our law, constitution, and democracy comes from Christian teaching. It is precisely Christianity that teaches equality for all. At times in the past the west has not always adhered to that principle but thankfully they have progressed. And in truth, the native American way of life was, and has been, oppressed. Thankfully there are endeavors today to amend that. The native Americans are renewing their traditions while at the same time seeing the wisdom of progress.The rest of your post I am in complete agreement with. [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />CH

Caringheart,

I agree that many Christian principles are embedded in the laws of the United States, but many Christian "principles" are not limited to Christianity. The Biblical ideas for justice and equality are not exclusive to Christianity. But democracy, the right to vote, civil liberties, duties of citizenship, etc., mostly come down from the pagan Greeks and later Roman laws and ideals. Much of the morality behind the making of laws does come from religion, but religion is compromised when it is involved in the affairs of government. Just look at Iran and other theocracies where religious authorities are the people who run the government. They are very far away from being a government that exists by the "Will of God," even if they believe that they are. Which "God" are we talking about, and who decides that choice? So many people claim that the United States is a "Christian" country but it is not. The majority of the citizens may be Christian, but the basis of a true democracy is equality among all the citizens, and when a country creates a "state religion" then all sorts of problems come to fore. In Islamic-ruled countries Christians, Jews and others are seen in many cases as second-class citizens. The foundation of Western civilization, the idea that the individual has rights that can not be taken away by the state, that the state exists to serve the needs of the people. The Western idea that the rights of the minority must not be subdued or dominated by the tyranny of the majority. The Bible itself is not meant to be a guide for how to run a government or handle secular matters of the state. That is why there IS a separation of church and state.

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."

Larry

Edited by Larry - 20 November 2012 at 12:12am

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Mahdi The Seeke
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Posted: 21 November 2012 at 11:37am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Luke was an eye witness? Yes or no.

So, NO.

Greetings Mahdi,and so...Would you discount those things recorded by a court recorder who records eye witness testimony at trials?CH

1.Witnesses lie/will not recall events accurately.
2.If someone is recording witness statements, they simply record what is said, and cannot verify truth.
3.Fake witnesses.

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Caringheart

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Posted: 21 November 2012 at 6:41pm

Originally posted by Larry

They are very far away from being a government that exists by the "Will of God,"

Hi Larry,

Regarding this statement I say this... they are not far away from their god. Yes, they are far away from the true God.

If you study the old testament, many of the laws of Rome are descendants of what was taught(by God) in the Jewish scriptures and in their society. So I think Roman thinking was influenced by the Jewish population.
"the basis of our law, constitution, and democracy comes from Christian teaching." Christian teaching which flows from the Judeo teaching.

I agree, the declaration of an authorized 'state religion' only corrupts... look at England when it split from the original church because it wanted the church to support the decisions of the king rather than the laws of God. Having the two tied together is not good, but I believe it is the principles of Judeo-Christian teaching(because they are the true guidance of God), incorporated with the forward thinking of earlier societies, such as the philosophy of the Greeks, that has resulted in the stability of other countries.

This is why I still say, " I believe the strength of the west lies precisely in the fact that it is built on a solid Christian foundation, which includes separation of church and state and free will to choose..."

Just look at what is happening to western nations as they slip away from those Christian foundations.

The second class citizen status comes out of the Islamic teaching.
Not so with Christian teaching. "It is precisely Christianity that teaches equality for all."

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."

Yes, this also comes from the old testament when God, through His prophets, would anoint not only a spiritual leader of the people, but also a king.

Hope you are enjoying a Happy Thanksgiving day. Smile

CH

Edited by Caringheart - 21 November 2012 at 6:49pm

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Larry
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Posted: 22 November 2012 at 1:16am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Larry

They are very far away from being a government that exists by the "Will of God,"

Hi Larry,Regarding this statement I say this... they are not far away from their god. Yes, they are far away from the true God.If you study the old testament, many of the laws of Rome are descendants of what was taught(by God) in the Jewish scriptures and in their society. So I think Roman thinking was influenced by the Jewish population. "the basis of our law, constitution, and democracy comes from Christian teaching." Christian teaching which flows from the Judeo teaching.I agree, the declaration of an authorized 'state religion' only corrupts... look at England when it split from the original church because it wanted the church to support the decisions of the king rather than the laws of God. Having the two tied together is not good, but I believe it is the principles of Judeo-Christian teaching(because they are the true guidance of God), incorporated with the forward thinking of earlier societies, such as the philosophy of the Greeks, that has resulted in the stability of other countries.This is why I still say, " I believe the strength of the west lies precisely in the fact that it is built on a solid Christian foundation, which includes separation of church and state and free will to choose..."Just look at what is happening to western nations as they slip away from those Christian foundations.The second class citizen status comes out of the Islamic teaching.Not so with Christian teaching. "It is precisely Christianity that teaches equality for all."

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."

Yes, this also comes from the old testament when God, through His prophets, would anoint not only a spiritual leader of the people, but also a king.Hope you are enjoying a Happy Thanksgiving day. [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />CH

Caringheart,

   I agree with some of your points but disagree on others. Your statement that "the basis of our law, constitution and democracy comes from Christian teaching," is not completely correct. The actual word, "demokratia" is Greek for "popular government." Roman law descended from the Greeks almost exclusively. In fact, the Romans persecuted the Christians for centuries before declaring Christianity the "state religion" by Emperor Constantine in the fourth century A.D. Most of the fundamentals of Roman law were settled long before Christianity even existed. I am not saying that Christianity had no impact on Roman law, but it was much less than you desribe and did not come into effect for the most part until Constantine.
   I don't really understand what you mean whewn you say, "Just look at was is happening to western nations as they slip away from those Christian foundations." Could you give me some examples of what you mean by that statement?
   Christianity does not need the help of any human government to give it it's legitimacy, in fact, when religion is mixed with politics, it is religion that loses the most in terms of it's moral authority. I am a Christian and always have been, but I do not want other "Christians" telling me how to live my religion or impose their particular beliefs onto me. I support the complete separation of church and state, period.
   Just look what happened in the early history of the United States when early colonies used Christianity and the Bible as the basis of their laws and social "norms." People were branded as "heretics" and "witches", based on the colonial's interpretation of what the Bible had to say and committed the most heinous executions of these and other people branded as not being "good Christians."
   The Bible has been used (incorrectly) as the source for many of the world's most cruel and inhuman persecutions, such as the Spanish Inquisition, for one example. I think that Jesus knew very well what he was saying when he made the comment, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."
   But these cruel and inhuman examples do not come from Christianity alone, all religions have been misused at different times to persecute and discriminate against others who are not seen as properly "religious" by the religious authorities at the time.
   The ancient "philosophy of the Greeks" was not based on Christianity, it was actually based on humanism, a belief in the strength of human achievement and human political theories. The Greek emphasis on Christianity did not come until after the firsty century A.D. when Christianity was introduced to the Greek people.
   As I said before, I am a Christian and believe strongly in the teachings of Jesus Christ, but there are many Christians who have a very different interpretations of what Christianity means and how it should be practiced by "true Christians."
   Anyway, just some thoughts of mine. I hope you have a great Thanksgiving too!

Larry

Edited by Larry - 22 November 2012 at 1:18am

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