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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES Post Reply Post New Topic
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 18 November 2012 at 12:29am
Larry said;
Do you have a problem with
dogs? I know that many
Muslims consider them
"unclean" animals and shun
them. In the United States we
cherish and love our dogs, one of the most noble and loyal of
God's creatures. They are used
as guide dogs for the blind,
they pursue and stop fleeing
criminals and they greatly and
effectively assist in the search for survivors after a major
earthquake or bombing, etc.
They really are "man's best
friend." It's obscene that these
gentle and intelligent creatures
should be considered "unclean" by anyone,
especially God.

I have no problem with dogs, and i agree that the Creator should not consider the creation unclean. The problem i have is Jesus insulting a woman, especially when she comes begging for help in a time of need simply for being non israelite. The Bible was not written by americans so their attitude towards dogs is irrelevant. On the other hand, dogs are one of the most,if not the most despised animals in the Bible. Example
Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls
before swine, lest they
trample them under their feet,
and turn again and rend you.

Deuteronomy 23:18 Thou shalt not bring the hire of a
whore, or the price of a dog,
into the house of the LORD thy
God for any vow: for even
both these are abomination
unto the LORD thy God.
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 18 November 2012 at 12:41am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Luke was an eye witness? Yes or no.
Greetings Mahdi,Luke was recording was believed and reported (i.e., the testimony) of the eye witnesses. (This would be like a court recorder who records the eye witness testimony at trials)1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,2 Even as they ... which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; [delivered them unto us]3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.Salaam,CH

So, NO.
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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 18 November 2012 at 3:24am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiential said;My Reply There is much I do not
understand about God.
Good that at least you are disturbed by these massacres which never sparee women, children and sucklings.
And you also first answered my question before asking one of your own as it should be.

Experiential said;
Am I right to say you
supported the actions of
Mohammad in his war
mongering? Which side would you have
taken in all the civil wars and
jihads throughout your Muslim
“Golden Era” and beyond?
Do you think you might have
been awarded a slave girl for your jihadi efforts?
QURAN2:190 Fight in the way of Allah
against those who fight
against you, but begin not
hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not
aggressors. 2:191 And slay them wherever ye
find them, and drive them out
of the places whence they
drove you out, for persecution
is worse than slaughter. And
fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship
until they first attack you
there, but if they attack you
(there) then slay them. Such is
the reward of disbelievers. 2:192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah
is Forgiving, Merciful. 2:193 And fight them until
persecution is no more, and
religion is for Allah. But if they
desist, then let there be no
hostility except against
wrong-doers.

VS

1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint
thee to be king over his
people, over Israel: now
therefore hearken thou unto
the voice of the words of the
LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which
Amalek did to Israel, how he
laid wait for him in the way,
when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that
they have, and spare them not;
but slay both man and
woman, infant and suckling,
ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Experiential, now please tell me honestly if you are able to bring yourself to do it. Which is more merciful and sensible based on the verses quoted above. Bible or Quran?


Mahdi,

   The problem you have here is that the Old Testament and the Qur'an have their teachings rooted in the past and they are not very easily adaptable to the modern world. We Christians follow the New Covenant with God, the New Testament of Jesus Christ, that superseded the Old Testament and is highly relevant and adaptable to the modern world, which is illustrated by the civilizations of the Western World with all their technology and advancements, especially in the equality of men and women and the protections of the laws in which everyone is equal in standing. There is a great and discernable difference between the cultures of the Western world, Europe and America in particular, and the cultures of the Islamic world, particularly in the Middle East. The West is characterized by a more modern and adaptable way of life in contrast to almost all the Arabic countries of the Middle East that are constantly at war with each other, Sunnis and Shia's, each calling the other apostates. Even a casual look at what is happening in the Islamic Middle East today and what is happening in the West is sufficient to see that there is a great deal of difference between them. The main problem that exists in the cultures of the Middle East is that they combine secular government with religion, particularly when they implement Sharia as the basis of their laws and statutes. The strength of the West lies in the separation of religion and state. Laws are built on the concept of precedent and settled law, not on religious teachings. Religions are protected and have absolute rights to their beliefs, but they don't have the right to impose their religious beliefs on other members of society. That is why in the United States, in particular, all religions are permitted to coexist with each other, which they do successfully, such as Christians (Catholic and Protestant), Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Native American, etc.

   In Matthew 22:17-21,

   17. "Tell us (the Pharisees asked Jesus), therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

   18. "But Jesus [perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?"

   19. "Show me the tax money." So they brought Him a denarius."

   20. "And He said to them, "Whose image and inscription is this?"

   21. "They said to Him, "Caesar's." And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

   So Jesus was telling them that there is a secular world and a religious world that can exist at the same time, without being joined. Whenever God is mixed with the secular and political affairs of this world there are always problems because no one knows where one stops and another begins. And there are always differences and difficulties between the various religions, such as is seen in the modern Middle East where Jews and Christians and Muslims do not share the same ideas and beliefs, and this is what leads to all the religious conflicts seen between the different faiths. In Saudi Arabia, for example, no other religion other than Islam is permitted. If Islam is declared to be the "state religion" where does that leave Jews and Christians, as well as other faiths, in the affairs of those nations? They will always be considered as "second class" citizens since they do not accept Islam as the "only true religion." Only by separating the religious and secular worlds is it possible to have a society in which all the citizens enjoy the same rights and responsibilities, and no one can force their religions on others who do not share their faith.

Larry
   

Edited by Larry - 18 November 2012 at 3:38am
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 18 November 2012 at 2:53pm

Mahdi Said

At least first acknowledge that you accused me falsely by claiming my position is an opinion when you very well know God of the Bible ordered the massacre of whole nations, pregnamt women and sucklings all inclusive.

My Reply

Opinion ? Im simply parroting your stock reply to my

well researched arguments.

At least acknowledge my reply that what happened to the non Jews God also brought about on the Jewish people through the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. So there was no favoritism there. And in terms of the Canaanites the Bible is clear in that God was exceedingly patient with them.

 

Mahdi Said

Second, the fact that the Israelites were subject to subjugation lays bare their lie of being special. Given that the Israelites went through cycles of being conquered and conquering others, this is proof they are nothing special.

My Reply

A mentioned to you previously, all human beings are special to God. The Jews simply carried the Messianic lineage. Gods love for humanity is evident in the Torah before the Jews were a distinct people.

Later as evidenced by the Torah, Gods love and impartial judgment in his dealings with humanity were first for the Jew and then for the gentile.

 

Mahdi Said Third, are you using the Quran to justify the Bible? Or Islam to justify Christianity?

Comparing Muhammad SAW battles to the genocide ordered by God of the Bible? FYI, they are totally different. I will check your response to another post where i compared verses from Quran and Bible about war.

My Reply

I challenge you to provide an ethical teaching from the Quran higher than this …

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..

Mathew 5.43

 

Mahdi Said

Fourth, God knew how contaminating the canaanites were? Seriously? I use the following analogy only to make you realise how disgusting, racist and 'some other words i cannot think of right now' that statement is. THAT sounds like something Hitler would come up with. Internalise this before replying.

Ps 'God knew......'? Congratulations on being able to read God's mind.

My Reply

You seem pretty good at reading Gods mind. God is the God of life, death and justice. Life and death belong to Him.

Why don’t you stop behaving like God and show the same honesty in saying there is much about God you don’t understand.

 

If you’re looking to prove that the Quran has a higher ethical basis than Jesus in the New Testament then I challenge you to prove it.

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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 18 November 2012 at 2:58pm

Mahdi Said

1.Answer my question.

2.Reinterpret your own version of the Bible to justify your translation otherwise you are making baseless claims. Have you even read the verse?

Matthew 15:26 King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Please, if you want to engage in serious discussions, desist from making such baseless arguments. DOG is the word.

How are dogs described in old testament. One example

 have surrounded me;

a gang of evildoers has closed

in on me; they pierced my

hands and my feet. Psalm 22:16

 
My Reply

OK then. The Hebrew word for ‘dog’ in Psalm 22:16 is -

כלב (keleb)

Meaning -

a) dog (literal)

b) contempt or abasement (fig.)

 

While in Matthew 15:26 the word in the Greek is κυνάριον kynarion

Meaning –

little dog, or puppy.

 

Now perhaps you can explain how the Quran interprets non Muslims as donkeys, dogs, beasts, swine and apes.

 

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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 18 November 2012 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiential said;
Islam holds no moral
high ground!
At least you agree that the atrocities ordered in the Bible are immoral. As i demonstrated by the Quranic verses i quoted and compared to 1 Samuel 15, islam does have the higher moral ground.

What I said was there is much I don’t understand about God. At least you agree that the atrocities ordered by Mohamad are immoral.As a Muslim don’t you believe in the same God as Adam , Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. So the same God you are trying to judge is yours.

But as you appear to understand everything about God and  have arrived at ultimate God consciousness perhaps you can explain 1 Samuel 15.

 

Anyway. I challenge you to provide an ethical teaching from the Quran higher than this …

 

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..

Mathew 5.43

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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 18 November 2012 at 3:09pm

Mahdi Said

Good that at least you are disturbed by these massacres which never spare women, children and sucklings.

And you also first answered my question before asking one of your own as it should be.

My Reply

As you believe in the same God as Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, and as you appear to understand everything about God and have arrived at ultimate God consciousness then perhaps you can explain 1 Samuel 15.

 
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 19 November 2012 at 8:00am
Experiential, thanks for not answering my questions and acting like a parrot. The God i believe in could not order mass murder of innocent people. So, the Bible must be wrong. And for people to commit massacres and credit it to God is despicable, claiming God gave them the land and ordered the killings. That is preposterous. And since Jesus is depicted displaying the same racist behaviour in the New Testament, and since Jesus is part of the Trinity makes him equally responsible for old Testament massacres, this is mind boggling. If the Bible and christianity is true, Jesus was racist.
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