IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES

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Mahdi The Seeke
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Posted: 16 November 2012 at 10:23am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Luke was not there.

1 Forasmuch
as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those
things which are most surely believed among us,

2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

3 It
seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things
from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent
Theophilus,

4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Luke was an eye witness? Yes or no.

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Mahdi The Seeke
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Posts: 253

Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:09am

Experiential said;My Reply There is much I do not
understand about God.
Good that at least you are disturbed by these massacres which never sparee women, children and sucklings.
And you also first answered my question before asking one of your own as it should be.
Experiential said;
Am I right to say you
supported the actions of
Mohammad in his war
mongering? Which side would you have
taken in all the civil wars and
jihads throughout your Muslim
“Golden Era” and beyond?
Do you think you might have
been awarded a slave girl for your jihadi efforts?
QURAN2:190 Fight in the way of Allah
against those who fight
against you, but begin not
hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not
aggressors. 2:191 And slay them wherever ye
find them, and drive them out
of the places whence they
drove you out, for persecution
is worse than slaughter. And
fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship
until they first attack you
there, but if they attack you
(there) then slay them. Such is
the reward of disbelievers. 2:192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah
is Forgiving, Merciful. 2:193 And fight them until
persecution is no more, and
religion is for Allah. But if they
desist, then let there be no
hostility except against
wrong-doers.

VS

1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint
thee to be king over his
people, over Israel: now
therefore hearken thou unto
the voice of the words of the
LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which
Amalek did to Israel, how he
laid wait for him in the way,
when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that
they have, and spare them not;
but slay both man and
woman, infant and suckling,
ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Experiential, now please tell me honestly if you are able to bring yourself to do it. Which is more merciful and sensible based on the verses quoted above. Bible or Quran?

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Mahdi The Seeke
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Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:50am

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiental said; God ignoring the non Jew is your personal opinion. Yes, the God of the Bible never masterminded the annihilation, genocide, massacre and ethnic cleansing of non israelite nations. I totally made all that up.

Yes Mohammad your Prophet was a man of the sword who masterminded the bloody torture and murder of the men of Ukl or Uraynah.

He showed the example when at the at the Battle Trench (also called The Battle of Ahzap or the Seige of Medina.) when he executed all the adult males of the city. And took the women and children into slavery.

And how Muslim are men allowed sex with their slave girls and captured women.

Islam holds no moral high ground!

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>

What happened to the non Jews God also brought about on the Jewish people through the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. So there was no favoritism there.

<o:p> </o:p>

In terms of the Canaanites the Bible is clear in that God was exceedingly patient with them in regards to their idol worship which also involved the abominable practice of sacrificing their children into the fires of their Gods.

Genesis 15.16 shows God was watching the Canaanites very closely and waiting for them to change. Also Canaan had a final forty-year countdown as they heard of the events in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on">Egypt</st1:country-region>, at the crossing of the <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Reed</st1:PlaceName> <st1:Place w:st="on">Sea</st1:place>, and what happened to the kings who opposed <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> along the way.

Remember God knew the Canaanite Cults were dangerously contaminating and if this wasn’t controlled the Messianic prophesies through Abraham, Isaac, David and ultimately Jesus The Mesiah would be at risk.

<o:p> </o:p>

At least first acknowledge that you accused me falsely by claiming my position is an opinion when you very well know God of the Bible ordered the massacre of whole nations, pregnamt women and sucklings all inclusive.

Second, the fact that the Israelites were subject to subjugation lays bare their lie of being special. Given that the israelites went through cycles of being conqured and conquering others, this is proof they are nothing special.

Third, are you using the Quran to justify the Bible? Or Islam to justify Christianity? Comparing Muhammed SAW battles to the genocide ordered by God of the Bible? FYI, they aretotally different. I will check your response to another post where i compared verses from Quran and Bible about war.

Fourth, God knew how contaminating the canaanites were? Seriously? I use the following analogy only to make you realise how disgusting, racist and 'some other words i cannot think of right now' that statement is. THAT sounds like something Hitler would come up with. Internalise this before replying.
Ps 'God knew......'? Congratulations on being able to read God's mind.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 16 November 2012 at 12:04pm

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Mahdi The Seeke
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Posted: 16 November 2012 at 12:21pm

Experiential said;
Islam holds no moral
high ground!
At least you agree that the atrocities ordered in the Bible are immoral. As i demonstrated by the Quranic verses i quoted and compared to 1 Samuel 15, islam does have the higher moral ground.

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Caringheart

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Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:33pm

Israelites - the first to receive the Word
Christians - second to receive the Word
Muslims - third to receive the Word

Does it matter in what order or what way we receive the Word of God?
Does it really matter what we call ourselves as long as we belong to God?

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Mahdi The Seeke
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Posted: 17 November 2012 at 3:17am

Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Mahdi, you need to read the whole of Jesus' lecture to the disciples in Matthew 10. In verses 5-6 Jesus tells them as He is sending them out to represent them in His own mission, not to go into Gentile territories or Samaritan towns but the lost sheep of Israel. This is with reference to geography then. He therefore wants them to stick to Judaea and Galilee. However, He goes on to warn them about the long term future of their mission. In verse 17 He then warns the disciples that many Jews will reject them and that they will be expelled from the synagogue. In verse 18 He then says they will go out to the Gentiles. "On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles." You see, you have to consider what Jesus' preaching and teaching mission was about. It was about to get the Jews back to obeying the Torah and proclaiming the Kingdom of God and the New Covenant. Then, the Jews were to go out to the Gentiles. In Matthew 10 Jesus sends them on a training mission to Jews only, but warns them that in the future they will be persecuted, driven out of synagogues and end up before governors and kings and be witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. That doesn't mean that the mission to the Jews is over though. For Jesus goes on to say in verse 23, "I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."At the end of His mission, as He is about to Ascend into Heaven, on more than one occasion Jesus then gives His disciples that wider mission as predicted in verse 18 which went beyond the training programme of verses 5-6. Look at Matthew 28:18-20 and Acts 1:6-9. After all, Jesus did heal the Syro-Phoenician woman's daughter, the centurion's servant, the royal official's son, and many people who came from Tyre and Sidon to be healed, and a Samaritan leper.

I have read the whole chapter.
And it is a massive false prophecy since "I tell you
the truth, you will not finish
going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man
comes." did not happen.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 17 November 2012 at 3:23am

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Caringheart

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Posted: 17 November 2012 at 11:45am

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Luke was an eye witness? Yes or no.

Greetings Mahdi,

Luke was recording what was believed and reported (i.e., the testimony) of the eye witnesses. (This would be like a court recorder who records the eye witness testimony at trials)

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

2 Even as they ... which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; [delivered them unto us]

3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Salaam,
CH

Edited by Caringheart - 19 November 2012 at 12:26pm

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Larry
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Posted: 17 November 2012 at 5:29pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Mahdi Said<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

In short, you have no problem with Jesus insulting a woman in need for the simple fault of being a non Jew. To each their own.

My Reply<o:p></o:p>

In short you have no problem with the Quran referring to non Muslims as dogs, donkeys, pigs, beasts and apes.

<o:p> </o:p>

Secondly who says it was an insult? The actual word in the Greek is “puppies”. The image Jesus has chosen is an image of endearment, not insult. The picture of supper-time, with little kids at the table, and their pet puppies at their feet, maybe tugging on their robes for food or play. The puppies, dear to the children and probably so too to Jesus.

1.Answer my question.
2.Reinterpret your own version of the Bible to justify your translation otherwise you are making baseless claims. Have you even read the verse?
Matthew 15:26
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Please, if you want to engage in serious discussions, desist from making such baseless arguments. DOG is the word.
How are dogs described in old testament. One example

For dogs have surrounded me;
a gang of evildoers has closed
in on me; they pierced my
hands and my feet. Psalm 22:16

A gang of evildoers.

Do you have a problem with dogs? I know that many Muslims consider them "unclean" animals and shun them. In the United States we cherish and love our dogs, one of the most noble and loyal of God's creatures. They are used as guide dogs for the blind, they pursue and stop fleeing criminals and they greatly and effectively assist in the search for survivors after a major earthquake or bombing, etc. They really are "man's best friend." It's obscene that these gentle and intelligent creatures should be considered "unclean" by anyone, especially God.

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Topic: CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES
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Author	Message
Mahdi The Seeke Male Senior Member Joined: 28 July 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 253	Posted: 16 November 2012 at 10:23am
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* *Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke* Luke was not there. <p ="chapter-1"><span id="en-KJV-24895" ="text Luke-1-1"><span ="chapternum">1 </span>Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,</span> <span id="en-KJV-24896" ="text Luke-1-2"><sup ="versenum">2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;</span> <span id="en-KJV-24897" ="text Luke-1-3"><sup ="versenum">3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,</span> <span id="en-KJV-24898" ="text Luke-1-4"><sup ="versenum">4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.</span> Luke was an eye witness? Yes or no.
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Mahdi The Seeke Male Senior Member Joined: 28 July 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 253	Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:09am
	Experiential said;My Reply There is much I do not understand about God. Good that at least you are disturbed by these massacres which never sparee women, children and sucklings. And you also first answered my question before asking one of your own as it should be. Experiential said; Am I right to say you supported the actions of Mohammad in his war mongering? Which side would you have taken in all the civil wars and jihads throughout your Muslim “Golden Era” and beyond? Do you think you might have been awarded a slave girl for your jihadi efforts? QURAN2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. 2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. VS 1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. Experiential, now please tell me honestly if you are able to bring yourself to do it. Which is more merciful and sensible based on the verses quoted above. Bible or Quran?
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Mahdi The Seeke Male Senior Member Joined: 28 July 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 253	Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:50am
	*Originally posted by Experiential* *Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke* Experiental said; God ignoring the non Jew is your personal opinion. Yes, the God of the Bible never masterminded the annihilation, genocide, massacre and ethnic cleansing of non israelite nations. I totally made all that up. <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Yes Mohammad your Prophet was a man of the sword who masterminded the bloody torture and murder of the men of Ukl or Uraynah. <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He showed the example when at the at the Battle Trench (also called The Battle of Ahzap or the Seige of Medina.) when he <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>executed all the adult males of the city. And took the women and children into slavery. <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">And how Muslim are men allowed sex with their slave girls and captured women. <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Islam holds no moral high ground! <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p> <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">What happened to the non Jews God also brought about on the Jewish people through the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. So there was no favoritism there. <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p> <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In terms of the Canaanites the Bible is clear in that God was exceedingly patient with them in regards to their idol worship which also involved the abominable practice of sacrificing their children into the fires of their Gods. <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Genesis 15.16 shows God was watching the Canaanites very closely and waiting for them to change. Also Canaan had a final forty-year countdown as they heard of the events in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on">Egypt</st1:country-region>, at the crossing of the <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Reed</st1:PlaceName> <st1:Place w:st="on">Sea</st1:place>, and what happened to the kings who opposed <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> along the way. <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Remember God knew the Canaanite Cults were dangerously contaminating and if this wasn’t controlled the Messianic prophesies through Abraham, Isaac, David and ultimately Jesus The Mesiah would be at risk. <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p> At least first acknowledge that you accused me falsely by claiming my position is an opinion when you very well know God of the Bible ordered the massacre of whole nations, pregnamt women and sucklings all inclusive. Second, the fact that the Israelites were subject to subjugation lays bare their lie of being special. Given that the israelites went through cycles of being conqured and conquering others, this is proof they are nothing special. Third, are you using the Quran to justify the Bible? Or Islam to justify Christianity? Comparing Muhammed SAW battles to the genocide ordered by God of the Bible? FYI, they aretotally different. I will check your response to another post where i compared verses from Quran and Bible about war. Fourth, God knew how contaminating the canaanites were? Seriously? I use the following analogy only to make you realise how disgusting, racist and 'some other words i cannot think of right now' that statement is. THAT sounds like something Hitler would come up with. Internalise this before replying. Ps 'God knew......'? Congratulations on being able to read God's mind. Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 16 November 2012 at 12:04pm
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Mahdi The Seeke Male Senior Member Joined: 28 July 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 253	Posted: 16 November 2012 at 12:21pm
	Experiential said; Islam holds no moral high ground! At least you agree that the atrocities ordered in the Bible are immoral. As i demonstrated by the Quranic verses i quoted and compared to 1 Samuel 15, islam does have the higher moral ground.
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1310	Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:33pm
	Israelites - the first to receive the Word Christians - second to receive the Word Muslims - third to receive the Word Does it matter in what order or what way we receive the Word of God? Does it really matter what we call ourselves as long as we belong to God?
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Mahdi The Seeke Male Senior Member Joined: 28 July 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 253	Posted: 17 November 2012 at 3:17am
	*Originally posted by Salaam_Erin* Mahdi, you need to read the whole of Jesus' lecture to the disciples in Matthew 10. In verses 5-6 Jesus tells them as He is sending them out to represent them in His own mission, not to go into Gentile territories or Samaritan towns but the lost sheep of Israel. This is with reference to geography then. He therefore wants them to stick to Judaea and Galilee. However, He goes on to warn them about the long term future of their mission. In verse 17 He then warns the disciples that many Jews will reject them and that they will be expelled from the synagogue. In verse 18 He then says they will go out to the Gentiles. "On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles." You see, you have to consider what Jesus' preaching and teaching mission was about. It was about to get the Jews back to obeying the Torah and proclaiming the Kingdom of God and the New Covenant. Then, the Jews were to go out to the Gentiles. In Matthew 10 Jesus sends them on a training mission to Jews only, but warns them that in the future they will be persecuted, driven out of synagogues and end up before governors and kings and be witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. That doesn't mean that the mission to the Jews is over though. For Jesus goes on to say in verse 23, "I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."At the end of His mission, as He is about to Ascend into Heaven, on more than one occasion Jesus then gives His disciples that wider mission as predicted in verse 18 which went beyond the training programme of verses 5-6. Look at Matthew 28:18-20 and Acts 1:6-9. After all, Jesus did heal the Syro-Phoenician woman's daughter, the centurion's servant, the royal official's son, and many people who came from Tyre and Sidon to be healed, and a Samaritan leper. I have read the whole chapter. And it is a massive false prophecy since "I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." did not happen. Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 17 November 2012 at 3:23am
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1310	Posted: 17 November 2012 at 11:45am
	*Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke* Luke was an eye witness? Yes or no. Greetings Mahdi, Luke was recording what was believed and reported (i.e., the testimony) of the eye witnesses. (This would be like a court recorder who records the eye witness testimony at trials) 1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they ... which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; [delivered them unto us] 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed. Salaam, CH Edited by Caringheart - 19 November 2012 at 12:26pm
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Larry Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 16 April 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 632	Posted: 17 November 2012 at 5:29pm
	*Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke* *Originally posted by Experiential* <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Mahdi Said<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In short, you have no problem with Jesus insulting a woman in need for the simple fault of being a non Jew. To each their own. <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">My Reply<o:p></o:p> <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In short you have no problem with the Quran referring to non Muslims as dogs, donkeys, pigs, beasts and apes. <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p> <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Secondly who says it was an insult?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The actual word in the Greek is “puppies”. The image Jesus has chosen is an image of endearment, not insult. The picture of supper-time, with little kids at the table, and their pet puppies at their feet, maybe tugging on their robes for food or play. The puppies, dear to the children and probably so too to Jesus. 1.Answer my question. 2.Reinterpret your own version of the Bible to justify your translation otherwise you are making baseless claims. Have you even read the verse? Matthew 15:26 King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. Please, if you want to engage in serious discussions, desist from making such baseless arguments. DOG is the word. How are dogs described in old testament. One example For dogs have surrounded me; a gang of evildoers has closed in on me; they pierced my hands and my feet. Psalm 22:16 A gang of evildoers. Do you have a problem with dogs? I know that many Muslims consider them "unclean" animals and shun them. In the United States we cherish and love our dogs, one of the most noble and loyal of God's creatures. They are used as guide dogs for the blind, they pursue and stop fleeing criminals and they greatly and effectively assist in the search for survivors after a major earthquake or bombing, etc. They really are "man's best friend." It's obscene that these gentle and intelligent creatures should be considered "unclean" by anyone, especially God.
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