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Experiential
 
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2012 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Your imagination can take you any where you let it go depending on what a person did or did not do, did think or did not think, or did say or did not say. Not to mention your judgment of it.

And in regards to understanding Jesus words and actions, understanding can be an evolving thing.

Eventually Peter was beaten, imprisoned and martyred for his faith. A coward ? No.

I was only expressing my perspective. If Bernard Madoff was released from prison and you chose to trust him with your miney, that would be your liberty. In my case, i would not trust Peter after he denied Jesus after emphatically declaring his loyalty to the death.

Mahdi Said

Can you first tell me where in the scripture Jesus' claim in Luke 24:46-48 is found?

My Reply

The Book of Acts.
Yes. Jesus was quoting from the book of Acts.   

My Reply

You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ?

If you read the Old Testament (Genesis), before Jacob and Moses when the Israelite people and Jewish religion originated, you will read about Gods love and blessing on all mankind.

Plus even after Moses there are many examples of Gods blessing on non Jewish people. eg. Abraham.

Moving into the New Testament it is clear that “many who are first will be last and many who are last will be first” (Mark 10.31) and Jesus was criticized severely by Jewish people for praising gentiles over the Jews.Ultimately non Jews will be judged in mercy and fairness according to their conscience.

Do you have trouble in Jesus using the noun dog? The actual word in the Greek is “puppies”. There was no luck about this woman involved being blessed. It was based on her faith which Jesus saw.

The image Jesus has chosen is an image of endearment, not insult. The picture of supper-time, with little kids at the table, and their pet puppies at their feet, maybe tugging on their robes for food or play. The puppies, dear to the children and probably so too to Jesus.

Yes. Jesus used 'dog' in a totally non derogatory way. I am sure you would not take offence if i refered to you in the same way, especially when you come to beg me for help?

Firstly she was not begging. She had a power and authority in terms of her faith that Jesus recognized. Would I take offence if my people were referred to as “puppies”? If there were puppies playing around my feet. Maybe, maybe not?  Alot of it depends on the wider context of that situation and the culture of the day.

 

Also be aware of what your Quran says about “non believers’ For example -

 

Those who incurred the curse of God And His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine..." [S. 5:60]

 

His similitude is that of a dog; if you attack Him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, He (still) lolls out his tongue.

 

For the worst of beasts in the sight of God are the deaf and the dumb, - those who understand not. [S. 8:22]

 

For the worst of beasts in the sight of God are those who reject Him: They will not believe. [S. 8:55]

 

The similitude of those Who were charged With the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, But who subsequently failed in those (obligations) is That of an ASS which carries huge tomes.

 

Not very flattering !  



Edited by Experiential - 12 November 2012 at 2:11am
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2012 at 12:44am
Originally posted by Larry

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Larry said;
Also,
Jesus was not born until cenruries after the Books of
Samuel and Numbers were
written, so I don't see how
he could have "supported"
any of the Biblical examples
you provided. Your complete misunderstanding of the
Doctrine of the Trinity is
painfully obvious.

So, before Jesus was born, 'God' was an incomplete bi-unity of two, then the Father sent the Holy Spirit to make Mary 'Mother of God' conceive and 'God' was completed when Jesus was born?


Mahdi,

   The Qur'an completely misrepresents the doctrine of the Trinity. The author of Sura 5:116 mistakenly thought that Christians worshipped three gods; the Father, The Mother (Mary) and the Son (Jesus). But Christians don't worship this doctrine of the Trinity at all. There was a heretical sect of Christianity called the Choloridians, who had a concept of the Trinity which included Mary, who would have been born in Arabia during the time of Muhammad. They are possibly the source for this obvious error.

   But even the Qur'an asserts that Mary conceived Jesus through the intercession of Allah, who only has to say "Be" and it is. But Mary was never part of the Holy Trinity, Mary, who was blessed, but was not God.

   The Bible also teaches that Jesus was conceived by Mary through the intercession of God Himself. When Jesus was born, one of His names was Em-man-u-el, which means "God with us." There are many prophecies made centuries earlier concerning the coming of the Messiah in the Old Testament, and even named the place, Bethlehem, where He was to be born, which was where Jesus WAS born. All of the prophets of the Bible made prophecies that all were fulfilled later by Jesus in the New Testament. And ALL the prophets were named, but there was NEVER a prophecy concerning a "prophet" to come who was named "Muhammad" or "Ahmed" or any other name like that. Why would the Bible name all the prophets, accurately, but be completely silent on the subject of the "seal of the prophets" to come? Because there were no further "prophets" after Jesus, Muhammad never made any specific prophecies at all, the Biblical standard for being a true prophet.

   You, as well as some other Muslims continue to believe that the Trinity consisted of three separate "gods." God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, are all of one substance, "they" are God. There is only one God.

Larry

You did not even answer my question.
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2012 at 12:56am
Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Your imagination can take you any where you let it go depending on what a person did or did not do, did think or did not think, or did say or did not say. Not to mention your judgment of it. And in regards to understanding Jesus words and actions, understanding can be an evolving thing. Eventually Peter was beaten, imprisoned and martyred for his faith. A coward ? No. I was only expressing my perspective. If Bernard Madoff was released from prison and you chose to trust him with your miney, that would be your liberty. In my case, i would not trust Peter after he denied Jesus after emphatically declaring his loyalty to the death. Mahdi Said Can you first tell me where in the scripture Jesus' claim in Luke 24:46-48 is found? My Reply The Book of Acts. Yes. Jesus was quoting from the book of Acts.    My Reply You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ? If you read the Old Testament (Genesis), before Jacob and Moses when the Israelite people and Jewish religion originated, you will read about Gods love and blessing on all mankind. Plus even after Moses there are many examples of Gods blessing on non Jewish people. eg. Abraham. Moving into the New Testament it is clear that “many who are first will be last and many who are last will be first” (Mark 10.31) and Jesus was criticized severely by Jewish people for praising gentiles over the Jews.Ultimately non Jews will be judged in mercy and fairness according to their conscience. Do you have trouble in Jesus using the noun dog? The actual word in the Greek is “puppies”. There was no luck about this woman involved being blessed. It was based on her faith which Jesus saw. The image Jesus has chosen is an image of endearment, not insult. The picture of supper-time, with little kids at the table, and their pet puppies at their feet, maybe tugging on their robes for food or play. The puppies, dear to the children and probably so too to Jesus. Yes. Jesus used 'dog' in a totally non derogatory way. I am sure you would not take offence if i refered to you in the same way, especially when you come to beg me for help?

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Firstly she was not begging. She had a power and authority in terms of her faith that Jesus recognized. Would I take offence if my people were referred to as “puppies”? If there were puppies playing around my feet. Maybe, maybe not? <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> A</SPAN>lot of it depends on the wider context of that situation and the culture of the day.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: none"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </SPAN></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Also be aware of what your Quran says about “non believers’ For example -


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Those who incurred the curse of God And His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">apes and swine..." [S. 5:60]<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">His similitude is that of a <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">dog; if you attack Him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, He (still) lolls out his tongue. <O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">For the <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">worst of beasts in the sight of God are the deaf and the dumb, - those who understand not. [S. 8:22]<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">For the <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">worst of beasts in the sight of God are those who reject Him: They will not believe. [S. 8:55]<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">The similitude of those Who were charged With the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, But who subsequently failed in those (obligations) is That of an<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"> ASS which carries huge tomes.<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Not very flattering ! <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: none"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </SPAN></O:P>


In short, you have no problem with Jesus insulting a woman in need for the simple fault of being a non Jew. To each their own.
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2012 at 1:08am
Experiental said;
God ignoring the non Jew is
your personal opinion.

Yes, the God of the Bible never masterminded the annihilation, genocide, massacre and ethnic cleansing of non israelite nations. I totally made all that up.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2012 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke


Jesus was sent to the Israelites just like all the Israelite prophets before him. Read my previous posts to see the evidence i have presented for my point of view.


and so?
What does this mean to you, that Jesus does not lead gentiles to God?
who were the people who listened to Jesus and learned from him?
the gentiles.
the Jews rejected Him.
_____________________

24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was s*****p three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26 But unto none of them was Elijah sent, save unto Zarephath, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.  (Luke 4)

and also Mark 6:4; But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
_____________________

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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2012 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiential said; My Reply You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ? While reading the following Bible quotes,please keep in mind that according to the trinity, Jesus=God and he existed since the beginning of time. Witness Jesus love and mercy. 1. [/B1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass. Sucklings? Commanded by Jesus? Enough said. Besides, seems like a tribal war of revenge.' they treated our ancestors badly when we were weak. Now that were are strong, let us take vengeance'. And what a savage vengeance. 2. NUMBERS 21 gives an account of a sequence of massacres supported by Jesus. Whole tribes wiped out and their lands taken. Is it only Israelites who have a right to live? 3.Conquest of Canaan. Did Jesus tell the tribes settled there that the land was reserved for Israel? Did Jesus ask them to leave and they refused? Did Jesus have to 'give' the Israelites land already occupied? Could he not have reserved the land for them while they were enslaved? Did the tribes take the land forcefully from Israel? Did the tribes attack Israel in the wilderness or were the Israelites the invaders? Wars of israel were tribal wars. When they were strong, they conquered other lands and when they were weak they were conquered, just like many civilisations in history. They self-styled themselves as the chosen people of the the Creator of the world. If they are correct, then Jesus was very tribalistic indeed. I hope you can now see how much Jesus loved gentiles from the time Israel as a nation was created.

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Hello Mahdi


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">You raise a good question. However remember justice, life and death ultimately belong to God. One day all will be known and all tears will cease.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Bear in mind ,what happened to the Canaanites, God also brought about on the Jewish people through the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. So there was no favoritism there.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In terms of the Canaanites the Bible is clear in that God was exceedingly patient with them in regards to their idol worship which also involved the abominable practice of sacrificing their children into the fires of their Gods.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Genesis 15.16 shows God was watching the Canaanites very closely and waiting for them to change. Also Canaan had a final forty-year countdown as they heard of the events in <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">Egypt</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>, at the crossing of the <ST1:PLACENAME w:st="on">Reed</ST1:PLACENAME> <ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Sea</ST1:PLACE>, and what happened to the kings who opposed <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Israel</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> along the way.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Also remember God knew the Canaanite Cults were dangerously contaminating and if this wasn’t controlled the Messianic prophesies through Abraham, Isaac, David and ultimately Jesus The Mesiah would be at risk.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Also Islam holds no moral high ground!


Mohammad was a man of the sword. <FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">For example Muhammad’s bloody torture and murder of the men of Ukl or Uraynah.

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Or how Muslims fought the Jewish Quraysh tribe at the Battle Trench (also called The Battle of<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Ahzap or the Seige of Medina.) and after winning, the prophet executed all the adult males of the city. Muslim sources put the number of the Jewish men who were beheaded in one day anywhere between 600 to 900. The women and children were divided up among the Islamic warriors and enslaved.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Or how about Muslim men allowed sex with their slave girls and captured women. Sura 70:22-30: and 23:5,6:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>33:50


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


Am i right to say that you think the massacres of the nations in canaan were fully justified?

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 12 November 2012 at 2:43pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2012 at 2:46pm
Luke 2:32
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
__________________________

Was it not true, and did it not come to pass?
that Jesus was a light unto the gentiles and the glory of Israel.

Was Luke not making a record of things being spoken of at that time?
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2012 at 6:15am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Luke 2:3230 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.__________________________Was it not true, and did it not come to pass?that Jesus was a light unto the gentiles and the glory of Israel.Was Luke not making a record of things being spoken of at that time?

Luke was not there.
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