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Interfaith Dialogue
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2012 at 2:55am
Originally posted by Larry

Experiential,
   I was amazed at Abu Loren's statements which provided even more evidence of the truths contained in the Injil. It is striking that these various writers of the Injil, without knowing each other and from different times and places, have more agreement between them and less discrepancies in their writings than the single writer of the "revelations" provided in the Qur'an. I thought it was interesting that Abu Loren did not respond to these points but merely left a link to one of his previous answers from another thread that did not answer the questions posed to him. But, as I said above, this is a common tactic used by SOME Muslim writers when faced with uncomfortable realities to which they do not respond.
Larry

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Larry


   Since, in your statement, NONE of the Injil writers, except perhaps Luke and Paul, EVEN KNEW EACH OTHER and writing in DIFFERENT times and places, it is incredible that all these men should be able to write Gospels that agreed with each other in almost every single detail. THAT is what gives the New Testament it's authority and authenticity.    


Good point Larry. If they wanted to twist the scriptures they would have had to know each other and regular contact to get their stories right.
 

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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2012 at 3:47pm
Experiential,

I agree, Bud, the "corrupted text" argument used so often on here by some Muslims seeks to explain WHY, when the Old and New Testaments fit together almost seamlessly, the only "holy text" that has serious and deep discrepancies with both the Old and New Testaments, is the Qur'an. Since there is no chance of hiding or suppressing these discrepancies, the only "explanation" for them is that the Jews and Christians CORRUPTED THEIR OWN OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS, when these Testaments were WRITTEN, and were RECORDED by both Jews and Christians many centuries before the Qur'an ever existed.

   So the ONLY way that these texts could have been "corrupted" was when they were first written down, because if there were discrepancies between the texts of the earliest Old Testament and New Testament texts, they would be glaringly obvious and no amount of "corruption" could conceal those discrepancies and facts.

   I find it disturbing when I see the mental, linguistic and logical contortions some Muslims will go to, to have to try and fit the "revelations" of the Qur'an into existing Jewish and Christian holy texts, and then their "explanations" of the many and varied discrepancies that arise from their efforts.

   The thing that amazes me so much every time I read them, the Biblical "quotes" used by some Muslims to PROVE the holiness and truth of the Qur'an are repeated word-for-word from the texts Old or New Testaments, but, conveniently, when these same texts have discrepancies between them and the Qur'an, they are summarily dismissed as "corrupted" text.

Larry


   
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Larry

Experiential,
   I was amazed at Abu Loren's statements which provided even more evidence of the truths contained in the Injil. It is striking that these various writers of the Injil, without knowing each other and from different times and places, have more agreement between them and less discrepancies in their writings than the single writer of the "revelations" provided in the Qur'an. I thought it was interesting that Abu Loren did not respond to these points but merely left a link to one of his previous answers from another thread that did not answer the questions posed to him. But, as I said above, this is a common tactic used by SOME Muslim writers when faced with uncomfortable realities to which they do not respond.
Larry

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Larry


   Since, in your statement, NONE of the Injil writers, except perhaps Luke and Paul, EVEN KNEW EACH OTHER and writing in DIFFERENT times and places, it is incredible that all these men should be able to write Gospels that agreed with each other in almost every single detail. THAT is what gives the New Testament it's authority and authenticity.    


Good point Larry. If they wanted to twist the scriptures they would have had to know each other and regular contact to get their stories right.

 

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Edited by Larry - 02 November 2012 at 3:54pm
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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2012 at 2:19am

Mahdi Said

SO the 'day of judgment' was the day the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. I guess we are all in heaven now.

My Reply

Judgment began for the Jews in (Mathew 10) leading up to the Roman destruction of the temple in AD 70 (Mathew 24) and leading further to the judgment of the whole world that is still unfolding now. Not complete yet, but unfolding, with its conclusion at The Day of Judgment.

Judgment first for the Jew and then later for the non Jew.

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Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2012 at 2:27am

Mahdi Said

A coward (Peter) who denies his master out of fear can do the same about his master's instructions. Since you established Peter, the 'rock' on which the church was built, as a coward, I will not put it beyond him to accept a roman centurion out of fear, just like he denied Jesus out of fear.

And now you are telling me how the other disciples also did not understand Jesus words. If they did not understand themselves, how can they teach others?

Can ANYTHING they teach even be trusted given their lack understanding?

My Reply

Your imagination can take you any where you let it go depending on what a person did or did not do, did think or did not think, or did say or did not say. Not to mention your judgment of it. 

And in regards to understanding Jesus words and actions, understanding can be an evolving thing.

Eventually Peter was beaten, imprisoned and martyred for his faith. A coward ? No.

 

 

Mahdi Said

Can you first tell me where in the scripture Jesus' claim in Luke 24:46-48 is found?

My Reply

The Book of Acts.

 

 

Mahdi Said

And as for Peter, I no longer trust him on account of his cowardice which you very familiar with

My Reply

That’s up to you. But eventually Peter was beaten, imprisoned and martyred for his faith. A coward ? No.

 

 

Mahdi Said

Indeed. First take care of god's chosen people. In the meantime, the gentile riff raff can live in sin , die or whatever. They have been thorns in the side of my people Israel dince the beginning. After all, they are simply dogs who will be lucky to even get crumbs from the master's table.

My Reply

You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ?

If you read the Old Testament (Genesis), before Jacob and Moses when the Israelite people and Jewish religion originated, you will read about Gods love and blessing on all mankind.

Plus even after Moses there are many examples of Gods blessing on non Jewish people. eg. Abraham.

Moving into the New Testament it is clear that “many who are first will be last and many who are last will be first” (Mark 10.31) and Jesus was criticized severely by Jewish people for praising gentiles over the Jews.Ultimately non Jews will be judged in mercy and fairness according to their conscience.

 Do you have trouble in Jesus using the noun dog? The actual word in the Greek is “puppies”. There was no luck about this woman involved being blessed. It was based on her faith which Jesus saw.

The image Jesus has chosen is an image of endearment, not insult. The picture of supper-time, with little kids at the table, and their pet puppies at their feet, maybe tugging on their robes for food or play. The puppies, dear to the children and probably so too to Jesus.

 

 

 

 

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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2012 at 7:11pm
Experiential,

   Mahdi said, "A coward who denies his master can do the same about his master's instructions." What he failed to say was that Jesus TOLD Peter shortly before His arrest that "before the cock crows you will deny me three times." This came true exactly as prophesied, and Peter wept when he realized what he had done.

   Jesus said, at the Last Supper, that the person who would betray Him was dipping his bread into the same bowl as Jesus, and that was Judas. Jesus even told Judas Iscariot that, "What you need to do, do quickly," because He knew that Judas would betray him to His enemies. Judas betrayed Jesus for thirty pieces of silver, as prophesied in Zechariah 12:12-13;

   12. "Then I said to them, "If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain." So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver."

   13. And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter" - that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter."

   When Judas tried to give back the thirty pieces of silver to the priests they could not accept it because it was "blood money," so they used it to buy the potter's field to bury strangers in.

   It was also this same Peter that, prior to his crucifixion in Rome, said he was not worthy to be crucified as Jesus Christ had been crucified, and they crucified him upside down on the cross.

   Doesn't sound like that much of a coward. A coward would have begged for his life. I don't think there are many people in the world, Mahdi included, who would not lie to save themselves from being killed in a terrible and painful way. It is easy to say you wouldn't do something when you are not in that position to be tested about losing your own life.

   And, this is juast another example of the true prophecies made by Jesus Christ and other true prophets of the Bible. Unfortunately, the "prophet" Muhammad never made any prophecies at all that were later fulfilled exactly as prophesied. That is the Biblical measure of a "true prophet."

Larry

Edited by Larry - 04 November 2012 at 7:31pm
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2012 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Mahdi Said <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">SO the 'day of judgment' was the day the temple in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Jerusalem</st1:place></st1:City> was destroyed in 70 AD. I guess we are all in heaven now.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">My Reply<o:p></o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Judgment began for the Jews in (Mathew 10) leading up to the Roman destruction of the temple in AD 70 (Mathew 24) and leading further to the judgment of the whole world that is still unfolding now. Not complete yet, but unfolding, with its conclusion at The Day of Judgment.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Judgment first for the Jew and then later for the non Jew.



Interesting opinion.
I thought we would be discussing points based in reality.
'First to the jew then gentile' is your personal opinion.
'Unfolding judgement' is your personal opinion. Unlike you, i bring up points based on what is written in the Bible. For example;
    Matthew 16:

27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man according to what he has done.
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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2012 at 12:57am
Your imagination can take you any where you let it go depending on what a person did or did not do, did think or did not think, or did say or did not say. Not to mention your judgment of it.

And in regards to understanding Jesus words and actions, understanding can be an evolving thing.

Eventually Peter was beaten, imprisoned and martyred for his faith. A coward ? No.

I was only expressing my perspective. If Bernard Madoff was released from prison and you chose to trust him with your miney, that would be your liberty. In my case, i would not trust Peter after he denied Jesus after emphatically declaring his loyalty to the death.

Mahdi Said

Can you first tell me where in the scripture Jesus' claim in Luke 24:46-48 is found?

My Reply

The Book of Acts.
Yes. Jesus was quoting from the book of Acts.   

My Reply

You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ?

If you read the Old Testament (Genesis), before Jacob and Moses when the Israelite people and Jewish religion originated, you will read about Gods love and blessing on all mankind.

Plus even after Moses there are many examples of Gods blessing on non Jewish people. eg. Abraham.

Moving into the New Testament it is clear that “many who are first will be last and many who are last will be first” (Mark 10.31) and Jesus was criticized severely by Jewish people for praising gentiles over the Jews.Ultimately non Jews will be judged in mercy and fairness according to their conscience.

Do you have trouble in Jesus using the noun dog? The actual word in the Greek is “puppies”. There was no luck about this woman involved being blessed. It was based on her faith which Jesus saw.

The image Jesus has chosen is an image of endearment, not insult. The picture of supper-time, with little kids at the table, and their pet puppies at their feet, maybe tugging on their robes for food or play. The puppies, dear to the children and probably so too to Jesus.

Yes. Jesus used 'dog' in a totally non derogatory way. I am sure you would not take offence if i refered to you in the same way, especially when you come to beg me for help?

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 07 November 2012 at 3:07am
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2012 at 1:19am
Experiential said;
My Reply

You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ?

While reading the following Bible quotes,please keep in mind that according to the trinity, Jesus=God and he existed since the beginning of time. Witness Jesus love and mercy.

1. [/B1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Sucklings? Commanded by Jesus? Enough said.
Besides, seems like a tribal war of revenge.' they treated our ancestors badly when we were weak. Now that were are strong, let us take vengeance'. And what a savage vengeance.

2. NUMBERS 21 gives an account of a sequence of massacres supported by Jesus. Whole tribes wiped out and their lands taken. Is it only Israelites who have a right to live?

3.Conquest of Canaan. Did Jesus tell the tribes settled there that the land was reserved for Israel? Did Jesus ask them to leave and they refused? Did Jesus have to 'give' the Israelites land already occupied? Could he not have reserved the land for them while they were enslaved? Did the tribes take the land forcefully from Israel? Did the tribes attack Israel in the wilderness or were the Israelites the invaders?

Wars of israel were tribal wars. When they were strong, they conquered other lands and when they were weak they were conquered, just like many civilisations in history. They self-styled themselves as the chosen people of the the Creator of the world. If they are correct, then Jesus was very tribalistic indeed.

I hope you can now see how much Jesus loved gentiles from the time Israel as a nation was created.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 07 November 2012 at 3:05am
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