Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 34 Next >>
Author Message
Experiential
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 23 November 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 311
Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 28 October 2012 at 2:09am
[I’m not going continue any further because you lack serious understanding as demonstrated by you asking these silly questions and secondly this is seriously wasting my time explaining things to you. I suggest you engage with a Muslim scholar, then again I don’t think he will have time for silliness like this.

 

My Reply

You asked for contradictions in the Quran so many were provided. Some of your replies were more satisfactory than others.

But with the degree of human interpretation involved there is enough to doubt the Quran being the sacred, literal, perfect, factual and infallible word of God as Muslims claim.

 

Combine this with the fact that most Muslims don’t even read or speak Arabic and it makes me wonder just how accessible  is “The Word of God”  to mankind.

 
With regard to your quote from Paul in Philippians, I do not take Paul seriously as I do not believe that he had a vision Jesus (pbuh) when Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t even crucified.

PHILIPPIANS

2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

My interpretation of the above :-

God hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name because he is the Messiah.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow because he is the promised king, the anointed, the Messiah.

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is the Messiah, to the glory of God Almighty.

 

[/QUOTE]

My Reply

I agree. On The Last Day, you, I and the whole world will bow to Jesus. What’s more, He is available to get to know now!

IP IP Logged
Experiential
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 23 November 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 311
Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 28 October 2012 at 2:14am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential

Nonsensical.
 

Who Was the First Muslim?

It seems clear to me that you do not understand  anything.

6:14,163 are very clear. After the Arabs had descended into idol worship, of course Muhammed (pbuh) is the first Muslim amongst them as he was the first to submit to the One True God.

7:143 After seeing the miracle that Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala had just performed, Prophet Musa (pbuh) prostates to the ground and is asking God to forgive him for testing Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala then says that he will be first of the believers in his new Covenant.

26:51 This is when the magicians had just witnessed the miracle Prophet Musa (pbuh) had performed with his staff in front of the Pharoah. The magicians were utterly defeated and thus became believers, hence they will be the first Muslims there.

2:127-133, 3:67 All Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) is saying here is to make his descendants Muslims.

2:37???

Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord?

53:1-18 You are confused once more. This surah tells us that he saw the Archangel Jibril (AS).

81:15-29 You are yet MORE confused. Again this tells the vision of Jibril (AS).

6:102-103 It just says that Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala sees everything.

42:51 This is laughable and pitiful. The verse says that Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala do not send revelations directly to a human being.

Were Warners Sent to All Mankind Before Muhammad?

Of course warners were sent to all mankind before Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Propets Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, Dawud, Suleiman, Shu’aib, Hud, Salih,  Isa (peace blessings of Allah be upon them all) comes to mind. When the original message is lost then they are not the same people, religiously speaking.

What about Hud and Salih who supposedly were sent to the Arabs?

The people of Prophet Hud (pbuh) and Prophet Salih were completely destroyed by Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala.

What about the Book that was supposedly given to Ishmael?

Which book is that? And what is it’s name?

If you read the Holy Qur’an properly then you will know that a thorny, poisonous plant is Zaqqum. As for the pus from wounds, that is for a people who are in the lower depths of hell. There are different layers within hell where sinners are sent according to the sins they’ve committed.

Can Angels Cause the Death of People?

Again you misunderstood. All the angels act upon the orders of Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala therefore they by themselves do not cause death, they only act upon the orders given to them.

To Marry or Not to Marry?

Muslim men were allowed to marry because of the relationship that they have through Abraham. Like the food that was made lawful for both parties.

Will Allah reward the good deeds of Unbelievers?

Yet more confusion. Surah 99:7 says that the people who does good and evil see the result of their actions.

Should Muslims show kindness to their parents?

Yes because disobeying or showing unkindness to one’s parents is a great sin.  You are correct in saying that one should not show kindness or mercy to  one’s parents if they oppose Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) this is because if you obey such parents then they are taking you into disbelief and hell fire.

How many mothers does a Muslim have?

Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala makes the distinction between one’s real mother and his nurse in order that the one who is nursed do not marry the woman who nursed him. By suckling, it is as if that woman is his mother. As for your other point it is very silly as this thread. The Prophet’s wives (May Allah be pleased with them) are given an honorary title ‘Mothers of the believers’. If you can’t understand this then there is no hope for you.

How many angels were talking to Mary?

The English translation is not the Holy Qura’n, it clearly states as ‘Malaikattu’ in Arabic in both of the ayas.

I’m not going continue any further because you lack serious understanding as demonstrated by you asking these silly questions and secondly this is seriously wasting my time explaining things to you. I suggest you engage with a Muslim scholar, then again I don’t think he will have time for silliness like this.

 

With regard to your quote from Paul in Philippians, I do not take Paul seriously as I do not believe that he had a vision Jesus (pbuh) when Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t even crucified.

PHILIPPIANS

2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

My interpretation of the above :-

God hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name because he is the Messiah.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow because he is the promised king, the anointed, the Messiah.

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is the Messiah, to the glory of God Almighty.

 

Abu Loren Said

I’m not going continue any further because you lack serious understanding as demonstrated by you asking these silly questions and secondly this is seriously wasting my time explaining things to you. I suggest you engage with a Muslim scholar, then again I don’t think he will have time for silliness like this.

My Reply

You asked for contradictions in the Quran so many were provided. Some of your replies were more satisfactory than others.

But with the degree of human interpretation involved there is enough to doubt the Quran being the sacred, literal, perfect, factual and infallible word of God as Muslims claim.

Combine this with the fact that most Muslims don’t even read or speak Arabic and it makes me wonder just how accessible  is “The Word of God”  to mankind.

 

Abu Loren Said

With regard to your quote from Paul in Philippians, I do not take Paul seriously as I do not believe that he had a vision Jesus (pbuh) when Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t even crucified.

My Reply

All of the other Injil writers such as Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, James and Peter agreed with Paul.

 

PHILIPPIANS

2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

Abu Loren Said

My interpretation of the above :-

God hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name because he is the Messiah.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow because he is the promised king, the anointed, the Messiah.

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is the Messiah, to the glory of God Almighty.

My Reply

I agree. On The Last Day, you, I and the whole world will bow to Jesus. What’s more, He is available to get to know now!

 

 

IP IP Logged
Experiential
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 23 November 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 311
Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 28 October 2012 at 2:23am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential

Correct. The Old Covenant is null and void. Jeremiah promised the new covenant would come later and then Jesus heralded it in when he said –

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Luke 22:20.

Who says? Paul? Jesus (pbuh) did NOT abolish the law. The verse you quoted could have been inserted anytime. We can't trust it.

 

Actually Abu Loren this was Luke quoting Jesus, not Paul.

In regards to the law you are right, Jesus did not come to abolish the law – but to fulfill the law !

There appears to be nothing in the Injil you can trust. But yet the Quran says –

 

And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun Sura 5:46. S. 57:27Sura 19.30. He [Jesus] said, "Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet."

Sura 3:3. It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

 

Sura 5:46 states that the Injil was given to Jesus by Allah.

Sura 19:30 and 3:3 then clarify that the Injil is a book just as the Qur'an and the Torah are books that were sent down by Allah.

 
 

Originally posted by Experiential

Yes the Quran and Muslims are confused about the Injil. However the New Testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now.

There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). As a result the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability.

 The original scriptures are lost.

 

Apart from the written evidence we have the oral traditions and memory of believers at this time. So there is sufficient evidence to satisfy me.

Besides your original scriptures don’t exist either! Uthman destroyed all traces of the early Quran so you don’t know what your original scriptures looked like.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.

Are you God?
 

Are you? Its obvious. Before the new religion of Mohammad people were either Pagans, Jews or Christians.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

I am not demonizing her. She was blessed ! However the Torah is clear – the promise was with Isaac. (/QUOTE] 

 Yes Jewish prejudice.
 

Prejudice against who? Muslims? The Torah was written 1900 years before Mohamed. Why would there be prejudice against a religion that didn’t exist yet?

Originally posted by Experiential

Quoting the Quaran means nothing to me because I don’t believe in the Quaran.

I see then what are you doing in an Islamic forum?  
 

Because this is an interfaith dialogue thread.

Originally posted by Experiential

Show me the inconsistencies and contradictions. Where is your proof.

The Injil was not changed at Nicea. The Injil was firmly established more than 200 years before Nicea and no decisions were made at Nicaea as to what would be included in the Injil.

All they discussed at Nicea was doctrine. What the Injil meant by the “God the Son” and the date of the Easter Festival.

This is historical fact.

 

Same old, same old...
 
 
[QUOTE=Experiential]  

Where is your evidence ? Prove it.

The proof is in the Holy Qur'an which you don't believe in. So it's pointless quoting here.
 
IP IP Logged
Experiential
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 23 November 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 311
Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 28 October 2012 at 2:26am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential

Correct. The Old Covenant is null and void. Jeremiah promised the new covenant would come later and then Jesus heralded it in when he said –

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Luke 22:20.

Who says? Paul? Jesus (pbuh) did NOT abolish the law. The verse you quoted could have been inserted anytime. We can't trust it.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Yes the Quran and Muslims are confused about the Injil. However the New Testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now.

There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). As a result the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability.

 The original scriptures are lost.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.

Are you God?

 

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.   

Are you God?

Originally posted by Experiential

I am not demonizing her. She was blessed ! However the Torah is clear – the promise was with Isaac. (/QUOTE] 

 Yes Jewish prejudice.

Originally posted by Experiential

Quoting the Quaran means nothing to me because I don’t believe in the Quaran.

I see then what are you doing in an Islamic forum?  

Originally posted by Experiential

Show me the inconsistencies and contradictions. Where is your proof.

The Injil was not changed at Nicea. The Injil was firmly established more than 200 years before Nicea and no decisions were made at Nicaea as to what would be included in the Injil.

All they discussed at Nicea was doctrine. What the Injil meant by the “God the Son” and the date of the Easter Festival.

This is historical fact.

 

Same old, same old...
 
 
[QUOTE=Experiential]  

Where is your evidence ? Prove it.

The proof is in the Holy Qur'an which you don't believe in. So it's pointless quoting here.
 

Abu Loren Said

Who says? Paul? Jesus (pbuh) did NOT abolish the law. The verse you quoted could have been inserted anytime. We can't trust it.

My Reply

Actually Abu Loren this was Luke quoting Jesus, not Paul.

In regards to the law you are right, Jesus did not come to abolish the law – but to fulfill the law !

There appears to be nothing in the Injil you can trust. But yet the Quran says –

 

And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun Sura 5:46. S. 57:27Sura 19.30. He [Jesus] said, "Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet."

Sura 3:3. It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

 

Sura 5:46 states that the Injil was given to Jesus by Allah.

Sura 19:30 and 3:3 then clarify that the Injil is a book just as the Qur'an and the Torah are books that were sent down by Allah.

Abu Loren Said

The original scriptures are lost.

My Reply

Apart from the written evidence we have the oral traditions and memory of believers at this time. So there is sufficient evidence to satisfy me.

Besides your original scriptures don’t exist either! Uthman destroyed all traces of the early Quran so you don’t know what your original scriptures looked like.

 

Abu Loren Said

Are you God?

 My Reply

Are you? Its obvious. Before the new religion of Mohammad people were either Pagans, Jews or Christians.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

Yes Jewish prejudice.

My Reply

Prejudice against who? Muslims? The Torah was written 1900 years before Mohamed. Why would there be prejudice against a religion that didn’t exist yet?

 

 

Abu Loren Said

I see then what are you doing in an Islamic forum? 

My Reply

Because this is an interfaith dialogue thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IP IP Logged
Abu Loren
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2012 at 8:00am
Originally posted by Experiential

You asked for contradictions in the Quran so many were provided. Some of your replies were more satisfactory than others.

But with the degree of human interpretation involved there is enough to doubt the Quran being the sacred, literal, perfect, factual and infallible word of God as Muslims claim.

Combine this with the fact that most Muslims don’t even read or speak Arabic and it makes me wonder just how accessible  is “The Word of God”  to mankind.

Most of the contradictions that you provided were silly, even a child would be ashamed to provide them as contradictions.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

All of the other Injil writers such as Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, James and Peter agreed with Paul.

Rubbish. With the possible exception of Luke, who being an assistant to Paul all the others did not even know each other. The writers and their writings also differ in the time in which they wrote.
 
Originally posted by Experiential

I agree. On The Last Day, you, I and the whole world will bow to Jesus. What’s more, He is available to get to know now!

 

 
Christians should not even be quoting Paul because he did not intent for his LETTERS to be included in any canonical Christian works, they are there by accident as somebody decided to include them in the NT. These letters were btw just letters that he sent to different churches encouraging them to not give up and to believe in Jesus as the Christ. His doctrine became popular and all of the rest of the gospels were 'gotten rid of'. So the Trinity doctrine won the race to be the new Christian teaching and all the others were cruelly suppressed by the early church fathers with the backing of the mighty pagan Roman Empire. This mighty Roman Empire is still ruling Christianity from the Vatican even to this day.   
 
IT'S ALSO A SAD FACT THAT YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO WATCHING YOUTUBE VIDEOS LIKE THIS TO GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM.
 


Edited by Abu Loren - 29 October 2012 at 9:58am
IP IP Logged
Caringheart
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2494
Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2012 at 9:37pm
I am still waiting for someone to tell me what it is that Paul teaches that they feel does not agree with Islam?
IP IP Logged
Mahdi The Seeke
Male 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 July 2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 260
Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2012 at 10:57pm
Experiential says Jesus came in 70AD and refers to the new testament as injil.
IP IP Logged
Larry
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2010
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 632
Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2012 at 11:39pm
Abu Loren,

   Experiential made the comment that, "All the other Injil writers such as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James and Peter agreed with Paul."

   You answered, "Rubbish. With the possible exception of Luke, who being an assistant to Paul all the others did not even know each other. The writers and their writings also differ in the time in which they wrote."

   You seem to have misunderstood your reply and provided more evidence of the truth of the Injil.

   Since, in your statement, NONE of the Injil writers, except perhaps Luke and Paul, EVEN KNEW EACH OTHER and writing in DIFFERENT times and places, it is incredible that all these men should be able to write Gospels that agreed with each other in almost every single detail. THAT is what gives the New Testament it's authority and authenticity.

   Thanks for pointing that out for everyone.

   Also, in reply to the Qur'anic "contradictions" provided by Experiential, you make a surprising statement. You said,

   "Most of the contradictions that you provided were silly, even a child would be ashamed to provide them as contradictions."

   MOST? You didn't address the "OTHER" contradictions provided beside "most" of the others. How easy it is to get tripped up by what we say when we aren't thinking about the content of our answers. That's when the real truth of a matter comes out.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 29 October 2012 at 11:49pm
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 34 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com