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Interfaith Dialogue
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Topic: Comparative studies 2
    Posted: 01 August 2012 at 5:42pm
My study of the Qur'an and a few questions.

1. Does no Muslim ever consider the fact that Allah everywhere in the Qur'an refers to Himself as We?
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“And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. (Qur’an; 3:50, 51).

2. Who is speaking here... is not God the one who is speaking, referring to Himself, saying that I come?  I, God, in the form of Jesus.

and compare to this;
18 
Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it?  (Isaiah)
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a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him  (Qur'an 4:171)

3. It matters here, where you place the comma...
i.e., a messenger of Allah and His Word, which He conveyed unto Mary and a Spirit from Him (?)
This would read entirely differently.

Also doesn't this imply that Jesus is the Spirit of God... "a spirit from Him"
God and His Word conveyed through the Spirit in Jesus(human form)?
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I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith to the Day of Resurrection;  (Qur’an; 3:54-55)
(be sure to go and read the whole passage in context to see that this is God speaking of Jesus)

4. Doe this not confirm the Christian message?  the resurrection?  the message given to Paul to go to the gentiles?

then shall ye all return unto Me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.(Qur’an; 3:54-55)

“That they said (in boast) “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah”; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not.  Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise." (Qur'an 4:157)

5. And I know this is a matter of contention but this could easily be taken to mean what Christians always proclaim... "He lives!"  
"Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise"  
It confirms the Christian message... the resurrection of Jesus and that Jesus lives, He is not dead.  He triumphed over death.  This is the essence of the Christian message.  
The Jews only cling to the belief (i.e., "it was made to appear to them") that Jesus was killed... that He was only a man.  The Jews were left full of doubts... "those who differ therein".

I feel that the Qur'an confirms and  disafirms the Bible... and therein in is the problem with Muhammad, and therein is the confusion of Islam.

You must examine your scriptures.

11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica,  for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures  every day to see if what Paul said was true.   12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.
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"Muslim is a person who SUBMITS HIS WILL TO GOD"
So is the true Christian.  Praying in the words given by Jesus:
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven...

Thy will, not mine own, is the essence of the true (forgotten by many) Christian message.  But there are many who have not forgotten, too. Smile

3:113 They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate (before Him).    
3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. These are of the righteous.    
3:115 And whatever good they do, they will not be denied the meed thereof. Allah is Aware of those who ward off (evil).

Salaam.


Edited by Caringheart - 01 August 2012 at 6:08pm
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2012 at 12:37pm
As'alaamu Alaikkum
 
1. Does no Muslim ever consider the fact that Allah everywhere in the Qur'an refers to Himself as We?
 
Yes, it is the Royal WE as it is in the Bible.
 
2. Who is speaking here... is not God the one who is speaking, referring to Himself, saying that I come? I, God, in the form of Jesus.
 
Jesus (pbuh) is indeed speaking here but he is speaking as a man and a prophet.
 
3. It matters here, where you place the comma...
i.e., a messenger of Allah and His Word, which He conveyed unto Mary and a Spirit from Him (?)
This would read entirely differently.
 
If you read the whole verse it maks perfect sense.
 
Sahih International
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. 4:171

4. Doe this not confirm the Christian message? the resurrection? the message given to Paul to go to the gentiles?

No, this in context tells us that Jesus will be raised up to Himself when they came to kill him on the cross.

 


 

 



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Quote flyffdzd Replybullet Posted: 03 August 2012 at 2:27am
you are so careful to make them together.
Everything is good!
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

As'alaamu Alaikkum
 
1. Does no Muslim ever consider the fact that Allah everywhere in the Qur'an refers to Himself as We?
 
Yes, it is the Royal WE as it is in the Bible.
 
2. Who is speaking here... is not God the one who is speaking, referring to Himself, saying that I come? I, God, in the form of Jesus.
 
Jesus (pbuh) is indeed speaking here but he is speaking as a man and a prophet.
 
3. It matters here, where you place the comma...
i.e., a messenger of Allah and His Word, which He conveyed unto Mary and a Spirit from Him (?)
This would read entirely differently.
 
If you read the whole verse it maks perfect sense.
 
Sahih International
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. 4:171

4. Doe this not confirm the Christian message? the resurrection? the message given to Paul to go to the gentiles?

No, this in context tells us that Jesus will be raised up to Himself when they came to kill him on the cross.

 


 

 



 
Jazakallah, well said brother,
Hasan 
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2012 at 8:28pm
It didn't say anything.  Didn't answer the questions I posed.
Didn't imply any serious consideration or thought.  Unhappy

Re: #1 - "Yes, it is the Royal WE as it is in the Bible."
What does this mean, because I have no idea what you are referring to.

Re:  #2 - You say that the whole of the Qur'an is God speaking, so this has to be God saying "I come".  Have you taken time to think about it?  to really reason it out?

Re:  #3 - I see you have used a different translation.
soul vs. spirit
which are different things, having different meaning.

Re: #4 and 5 - No.  In this context it can mean what you say, but it can just as easily mean what I say.  It would be nice if you could admit this.

That would be a step towards progress in understanding between us.
Smile Heart

Edited by Caringheart - 04 August 2012 at 8:53pm
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2012 at 12:57pm
Assalamu alaika Caringheart.


Note that: 3:50 is linked to 3:49. The word 'And' is linked to 'I have come to you' in 3:49.
2. There is no comma after Maryam. Jersus son of Maryam is addressed as the Spirit of Allah.
3. Who gave Paul the Message?
4. Rather the Christians are the ones to examine the Bible. No open can convince you of the certainty and standing position of the Qur'an besides yourself. There are many such passages.
If we are able to produce the like of the Qur'an we certainly have being living peacefully today and no one will ever think of manufacturing arms.
Remember the emphasis in Genesis on Positive Command to Adam.
Please let me know what is your motive.

Friendship
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2012 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

Note that: 3:50 is linked to 3:49. The word 'And' is linked to 'I have come to you' in 3:49.
2. There is no comma after Maryam. Jersus son of Maryam is addressed as the Spirit of Allah.
3. Who gave Paul the Message?
4. Rather the Christians are the ones to examine the Bible. No open can convince you of the certainty and standing position of the Qur'an besides yourself. There are many such passages.
If we are able to produce the like of the Qur'an we certainly have being living peacefully today and no one will ever think of manufacturing arms.
Remember the emphasis in Genesis on Positive Command to Adam.
Please let me know what is your motive.

Friendship


Greetings Friendship,
No motive other than to study and seek truth.  I am reading the Qur'an, and as with all things, as I study, I have questions.
I made note about the comma because in translating if punctuation is not placed properly it can change the whole meaning of a sentence.  I wonder if this sentence could be translated differently?

Re: 3:49 and 50... yes, I read it clearly now.  Thanks.

True, the Christian is told to examine the scriptures and prove their worth so as not to be misled by false teachers.
True, the Qur'an says differently.  It says that simply reading will prove its worth.
I am not sure that these are such different things.  'Examining the scriptures' really translates to daily reading so as not to lose touch with God, so as to always have His Word living in you to avoid the deceits of the devil.  'Renewing your minds' is a command from the Bible.  'Purify my soul with Your Word'.
I guess the point I am making is that Christians do not fear to examine the scriptures.  They are even instructed to do so.  This is what protects them from corruption by a different teaching.  They also do not fear to answer hard questions about their faith, having examined the scriptures to know their Truth. 
They do not insist that faith be accepted on the word of another, but is best examined  and determined for one's own self.  Which is like what you said, "No one can convince you of the certainty and standing position of the Qur'an besides yourself."  ... but one must be able to ask the questions and receive satisfactory answers.  Smile

I don't know what you are referring to about Genesis and the positive command to Adam.  A portion of the Qur'an that I have not yet read?

My understanding of Paul is that Jesus, risen to heaven, spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus, and from that time Paul was converted to serve Jesus.  From that time forward he understood and was in communion with God.

I appreciate your reply.  Smile
Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 05 August 2012 at 3:17pm
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2012 at 3:08pm
"it is the Royal WE as it is in the Bible."

Today I have done further study.  In the Hebrew, the word used in the scriptures is Elohim... one in plurality.
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