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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 27 October 2012 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by hakeema

As-Salaam Alaikum Abu Loren,
"Never Explain yourself to Anyone. Because the Person who Likes you doesn't Need it. And the Person who Dislikes you won't Believe it".
Understand what I am saying Abu Loren.
Hakeema
Wa Alaikkum As'alaam dear sis
The thing is we have to try and educate these infildils. Lol.
However rude and obnoxious they are.... Insha'Allah they will see the light and the Truth from the Holy Qur'an.


I can't think of anything more rude than talking about someone who is present in the third person.

Educating infidels? I wonder who needs more education here.



Edited by Matt Browne - 27 October 2012 at 9:58am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 27 October 2012 at 10:09am
Originally posted by honeto


Matt,
those terms are not Islamic. The only term that describes a true believer is "Muslim". There is no other term that describes it. Progressive Muslims, liberal Muslims, moderate Muslims, extremist Muslims, those are product of western world's choice of words describing how it distinguishes between who they approve of and who they don't.
Only those who follow the Quran are Muslims in the sight of the one who sent it. Who is good in who's sight in this world we give them a different name but the reality remains what it is, in front of God. And that's what matters to a follower of the Quran, a Muslim.

3:114 (Y. Ali) They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

Hasan


Hasan, I understand your desire for simplicity. But simple statements don't eliminate the complexity present in the world. What does it mean to follow the Quran? If it were that simple there would only be one school of jurisprudence, but there are several, because it is difficult to interpret the Quran and the Hadith. And there are Muslims who believe in the separation of state and religion (secular Muslims) and those who don't (non-secular Muslims). Which Muslim is the real Muslim?

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 27 October 2012 at 10:54am
Originally posted by Nausheen

 
 1. There is another category of women, or rather a subtype - women who cover despite their husbands being against the hijab ... sad but true!
 
>> There are Turkish parents who are against the Hijab in Germany, but their teenage daughters want to wear it because of peer pressure at school. In some schools in Berlin more than 80% of the students are Muslims. So if a girl doesn't wear a headscarf she might be called a slut.

2. Are you sure you are genuinly concerned about us getting enough vit D, and not fooling us into exposing ourselves to UV irradiation? ... just kidding :)
Yes I know how important vid D3 is. But a very short period of sunlight directly on the bones is sufficient to make all the vit D3 one needs. Thank you for your conecers and reminders.

>> It is a serious problem, otherwise medical journals wouldn't write about it.

3. I dont understand what you mean by us not respecting other's dress code. If one is a hijabi - would she be required to appear in certain cultures without a head-cover in order to indicate she is being respectful of that culture?

>> Face veils are considered offensive in Germany. They violate our dress code. Older Christian women sometimes wear headscarves to protect their hair. Nuns cover their hair.

4. Would you please explain what you mean by tolerating intolerance. I live in a non-muslim society and have non-muslim friends. I follow my religion and respectfully excuse myself out of certain norms/practices which would entail going against my religion. Im not sure how far this might offend others.
 
>> I tolerate tolerant people. I don't tolerate intolerant people. I tolerate Muslims who respect Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, polytheists, agnostics and atheists. I don't tolerate Muslims who don't respect Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, polytheists, agnostics and atheists. I tolerate people who vote for conservative parties when they tolerate that I vote for liberal parties. I don't tolerate neo-Nazis, because of their intolerant perverse ideology. I tolerate vegans, if they tolerate that I eat cheese. And so forth. You seem like a very tolerant person. You have non-Muslim friends. Well, there are Muslim fundamentalists who say that the Quran forbids them to befriend non-Muslims. There are several verses that are quite explicit about that. There are Muslim fundamentalists who practice Taqiyya, which mean they pretend to befriend non-Muslims to further the cause of Islam. They are intolerant of other religions. There are several people here on Islamicity who call me an disbeliever and infidel. This is the intolerance I am talking about.

Want to know, do non-muslims really find it offensive if a muslim refuses to drink or dine with them due to their religion?

>> Yes, if they are the hosts and the Muslims are the guests. We had Muslim guests in the past and we chose not to serve pork and there were plenty of non-alcoholic beverages. There was no problem. Many years ago my wife and I visited Egypt. When Egyptians invited us for dinner they would have found it very offensive if we refused because of our religion or world view. Some Germans are vegan extremists and they refuse to dine with people who eat cheese. Most people consider their behavior to be quite offensive.

'Allah hates us. Devout Muslims hate us and we say, oh, that's their culture and we have to respect different cultures.'
 
Its really sad that you feel this way. And worse if you've picked this impression from muslims who you thought were devout.

>> I was referring to verses in the Quran that are about the hatred of disbelievers and the fight against disbelievers (especially the late Medina Suras). I know that the vast majority of Muslims don't feel that way. But a minority of Muslims does, unfortunately. They think of Christians and Jews and atheists as being inferior and evil. They despise the West. They despise people who eat pork or drink alcohol or listen to music. They despise women, who don't cover their hair. They hate secular laws. They hate homosexuals and so forth. And they consider themselves to be devout Muslims. I know there are plenty of devout Muslims who disagree with them.

What would you expect from muslims in order to bridge the gap and make our society more respectful and tolerant for all?
 
>> Cancel the word disbeliever from the vocabulary. Stop talking about the Bible being corrupt and full of lies. Stop talking about the one true religion. Stop talking about superior and inferior religions. Start talking about my religion and your religion. My way and your way. Respect atheists. Respect Muslims who decide to leave their religion. Respect Muslim women want to marry a Christian man. Respect norms and values and dress codes of Western countries. Respect secularism. Give women all the rights that exist for men. End the silly dream of the whole world being ruled by Islam depicting it as some kind of paradise.  Appreciate a diverse colorful world full of mutual respect and tolerance.
 

 


Edited by Matt Browne - 27 October 2012 at 10:58am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 27 October 2012 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Originally posted by Nausheen

 
 1. There is another category of women, or rather a subtype - women who cover despite their husbands being against the hijab ... sad but true!
 
>> There are Turkish parents who are against the Hijab in Germany, but their teenage daughters want to wear it because of peer pressure at school. In some schools in Berlin more than 80% of the students are Muslims. So if a girl doesn't wear a headscarf she might be called a slut.
 

Im sure there may be 'young girls' who feel pressured to wear the hijab due to their social environment. I was mentioning a different category though - of 'grown up women' who can take mature decisions about themselves out of will and desire to please their Lord and draw close to Him through this act of obedience.
2. Are you sure you are genuinly concerned about us getting enough vit D, and not fooling us into exposing ourselves to UV irradiation? ... just kidding :)
Yes I know how important vid D3 is. But a very short period of sunlight directly on the bones is sufficient to make all the vit D3 one needs. Thank you for your conecers and reminders.

>> It is a serious problem, otherwise medical journals wouldn't write about it.
 

3. I dont understand what you mean by us not respecting other's dress code. If one is a hijabi - would she be required to appear in certain cultures without a head-cover in order to indicate she is being respectful of that culture?

>> Face veils are considered offensive in Germany. They violate our dress code. Older Christian women sometimes wear headscarves to protect their hair. Nuns cover their hair.
 
Thank you for the clarification.  A hijab is not a face veil. As far as I know, a face veil is not absolutely necessary, except in certain circles where it is said to be the dress code - and these circles have certainly not gone to Germany, so am sure they have not offended the Germans Tongue
I dont know what would be the middle way for those who live n Germany and want to cover their faces. When a society allows headscarf, I certainly respect them for doing so.

 
4. Would you please explain what you mean by tolerating intolerance. I live in a non-muslim society and have non-muslim friends. I follow my religion and respectfully excuse myself out of certain norms/practices which would entail going against my religion. Im not sure how far this might offend others.
 
>> I tolerate tolerant people. I don't tolerate intolerant people. I tolerate Muslims who respect Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, polytheists, agnostics and atheists. I don't tolerate Muslims who don't respect Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, polytheists, agnostics and atheists. I tolerate people who vote for conservative parties when they tolerate that I vote for liberal parties. I don't tolerate neo-Nazis, because of their intolerant perverse ideology. I tolerate vegans, if they tolerate that I eat cheese. And so forth. You seem like a very tolerant person. You have non-Muslim friends. Well, there are Muslim fundamentalists who say that the Quran forbids them to befriend non-Muslims. There are several verses that are quite explicit about that. There are Muslim fundamentalists who practice Taqiyya, which mean they pretend to befriend non-Muslims to further the cause of Islam. They are intolerant of other religions. There are several people here on Islamicity who call me an disbeliever and infidel. This is the intolerance I am talking about.
 
 I would not talk religion with anyone who does not want to discuss it. am aware of muslims who think its their right to present Islam to others, even when they are not receptive - well, there are ways of doing it without being offensive, rather we are specifically instructed in the Quran to present Islam to non-muslims in a manner which is appealing and attractive to them.
 
Interestingly Ive seen a kind of pushy attitude in Jehova Witness also. They come to my door with a pamphlet about Jesus once every two - three months. I dont know how to tell their entire group to spare my door - when I very well know that every new face who shows up every second or third month, know eachother.
 
Calling someone a disbeliever or infedel certainly wont attract them - I hope people are able to realize this.
 
 
Want to know, do non-muslims really find it offensive if a muslim refuses to drink or dine with them due to their religion?

>> Yes, if they are the hosts and the Muslims are the guests. We had Muslim guests in the past and we chose not to serve pork and there were plenty of non-alcoholic beverages. There was no problem. Many years ago my wife and I visited Egypt. When Egyptians invited us for dinner they would have found it very offensive if we refused because of our religion or world view. Some Germans are vegan extremists and they refuse to dine with people who eat cheese. Most people consider their behavior to be quite offensive.
 
I think if one is a host of a particular people who have religious obligations regarding food, as a good host it would be their duty to take care things. Im glad you took care not to serve pork of alcohol to your guests. I had once invited a hindu family where the wife said she will not eat any veg if I was going to prepare it in a utensil usually used for preparing meat. I went as far as borrowing pans from her to host their dinner Smile 
What I dont like is when people come to know I dont eat or drink a certain things, they ask me again and again if I would mind even a small quantity of it - since it has happened at times, I need to make sure poeple understand that I cannot or rather do not want to be lax.
 
Once someone asked me how do we know if we are served non-halal meat. _ there is no way of finding out about a cooked preparation, except that we believe there should be a certain level of trust and loyalty when friendships/relationships are involved. Because friendships/relationships are a two way street.  That is why I asked you this question - if am sure where Im invited I will not feel pressured to compromise my religious values is where  I would enjoy spending time dinning and talking. Otherwise I have to turn them down.
 
'Allah hates us. Devout Muslims hate us and we say, oh, that's their culture and we have to respect different cultures.'
 
Its really sad that you feel this way. And worse if you've picked this impression from muslims who you thought were devout.

>> I was referring to verses in the Quran that are about the hatred of disbelievers and the fight against disbelievers (especially the late Medina Suras). I know that the vast majority of Muslims don't feel that way. But a minority of Muslims does, unfortunately. They think of Christians and Jews and atheists as being inferior and evil. They despise the West. They despise people who eat pork or drink alcohol or listen to music. They despise women, who don't cover their hair. They hate secular laws. They hate homosexuals and so forth. And they consider themselves to be devout Muslims. I know there are plenty of devout Muslims who disagree with them.
 
Unfortunately there are people claiming self righteousness which in and of itself is offensive - not just to you as a non-muslim, but also to me being a muslim. I dont like anyone trying to find out if I pray five time a day.

What would you expect from muslims in order to bridge the gap and make our society more respectful and tolerant for all?
 
>> Cancel the word disbeliever from the vocabulary. Stop talking about the Bible being corrupt and full of lies. Stop talking about the one true religion. Stop talking about superior and inferior religions.
 
Have on occasions spoken about this with the non muslims.  We are not a walking quran, but some of us choose to be talking quran - that too only certain verses which place a pointer at the non-beleivers. 
The word disbeliever is in the Quran. The corruption of the bible and the mention of the one true religion is also in the Quran. We cannot erase/edit anything from there. However if we discuss it in proper light and with proper decorum am sure it will not sound as repulsive as it otherwise appears to be. Hope you agree and understand.
 
I know that the bible and the torah mention disbelievers and one true religion.
In the Quran the one true religion - is mentioned in context to the religion of Abraham. This is the same religion the Torah was sent to profess and the bible was sent to profess.
 
 
 Start talking about my religion and your religion. My way and your way. Respect atheists. Respect Muslims who decide to leave their religion. Respect Muslim women want to marry a Christian man. Respect norms and values and dress codes of Western countries. Respect secularism. Give women all the rights that exist for men.
 
 End the silly dream of the whole world being ruled by Islam depicting it as some kind of paradise.  Appreciate a diverse colorful world full of mutual respect and tolerance.
 
Thank you for this peice. I really appreciate it.  I do hope we work to achieve this as a global project. My mentor says we should never doubt in our ability to change and improve a human soul, so we should begin from within.

 

I have particularly learnt a lot from non-muslims who visit Islamicity, and continue to do so. It is hard to hate others after recognizing the faults within.

Hope we can contribute to an iota of change towards mutual respect and tolerance through these discussion boards.

Thank you. 

 

 


Edited by Nausheen - 27 October 2012 at 7:40pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2012 at 8:33am
Thanks for your kind reply, Nausheen. Yes, Jehova Witnesses are pushy people, and we do have them in Germany as well. I don't like their attitude and I disagree with many of their religious beliefs. They think they own the truth and everybody else is wrong. Not a good belief. To me there are many ways to find God and worship him. There are many co-existing spiritual truths.

Yes, encouraging you to eat something you don't want to eat is totally wrong. The problem is that some people fail to understand how this feels. Suppose American Christians travel to rural China where they serve plates of dog or cat meat. How would they feel about it? So next time someone encourages you to eat pork, ask them whether they would eat barbecued cats. This should get their attention.

Yes, that's the problem with fundamentalist Muslims and fundamentalist Christians. They want to impose their thinking and behavior on everybody else, and that's wrong.

Yes, the word disbeliever is in the Quran. And so is the word slave. But the time after 632 CE when the Quran was being turned into its written form was a different time. Now we have 2012 CE and followers of dozens of religions are just a mouse click or a 3-hours flight away. It is our duty to find ways to get along with each other. If we aim at a more peaceful world, we should not think of each others as disbelievers, even though our beliefs are somewhat different. Accusing each other of believing in corrupted traditions doesn't accomplish anything. Slavery is cruel and wrong and has no place in our world today.

Of course we can debate theology. Of course Muslims can disagree with this or that in the Bible and vice versa. But we should do it in a respectful manner and words such as lies or corruption are just too strong. And they are also generalization. If you say that this or that part in the Bible doesn't make sense to you that is totally fine. And if I say that this or that in the Quran doesn't make sense to me that should be totally fine too. Then it's not a generalization like the statement 'the Bible contains numerous lies'. It is about exchanging personal views, and then disagreements are normal. Some of the most treasured values of people in the West include freedom of expression, pluralism and disagreements. Good debates are the fuel of progress. This is why almost all scientific and technological achievements come from people who have learned to handle disagreements. A good professor doing research wants to be challenged by his or her students.

I differ with some of Abu Loren's views. So, I would like to ask you, Abu Loren, just disagree with me and say so and why, but don't call me obnoxious.

I really appreciate the dialog too, Nausheen. Yes, we need a global project of people from different faiths to come up with strategies to end violence and poverty. We won't achieve this if Christians just stick to themselves and Muslims just stick to themselves. I love the motto, think big, but start small. Mutual respect and tolerance here on Islamicity is an important small step. I learned a lot from Muslims too and I keep learning.



Edited by Matt Browne - 30 October 2012 at 8:43am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote W.S. Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2012 at 6:44am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Thanks for your kind reply, Nausheen. Yes, Jehova Witnesses are pushy people, and we do have them in Germany as well. I don't like their attitude and I disagree with many of their religious beliefs. They think they own the truth and everybody else is wrong. Not a good belief. To me there are many ways to find God and worship him. There are many co-existing spiritual truths.
Isn't that how it is with every religion? Yours is right and all the other religions are wrong? From what I understand, this is exactly what Islam says. Other religions may not be as explicit about it, though. Also, Islam isn't considered a spiritual truth as much as the truth, I believe.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

And if I say that this or that in the Quran doesn't make sense to me that should be totally fine too.
 
The first human being having been made out of clay doesn't make sense to me. Reasonably, that should be fine since we know today that it's countless years of evolution that's behind you and me and the world we live in today. This is problematic for me.
 

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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2012 at 7:00am
W.S., not every religion is as pushy as the Jehova Witnesses' religion. Believe it or not, most European Protestants, including ministers and bishops, don't think that they own the one and only one religious truth. They advocate the peaceful co-existence of differing spiritual truths. They reject the notion of 'my belief is right and your belief is wrong'. Most modern Catholics see it the same way, actually. Only the Vatican thinks they own the truth. They still live in the dark ages mentally. The German Pope is a complete failure and disappointment.

Yes, orthodox Islam considers Islam to be the only truth. But a lot of heterodox Muslims disagree with this view. They consider Islam to be a spiritual truth for them and therefore avoid telling everybody else that they are wrong. That's the way for a better future. The "only truth dogma" only leads to intolerance, violence and war. More and more Muslims want a peaceful 21st century and beyond and they realized how foolish it is to tell followers of other religions how wrong they are. More and more Muslims value independent thought and want to reform Islam. A good example of how this can be done is given by Irshad Manji.

Well, the 'clay hypothesis' of abiogenesis has not been widely accepted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Cairns-Smith#Clay_hypothesis





Edited by Matt Browne - 06 November 2012 at 7:06am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
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Quote W.S. Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2012 at 9:49am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Yes, orthodox Islam considers Islam to be the only truth. But a lot of heterodox Muslims disagree with this view. They consider Islam to be a spiritual truth for them and therefore avoid telling everybody else that they are wrong. That's the way for a better future. The "only truth dogma" only leads to intolerance, violence and war. More and more Muslims want a peaceful 21st century and beyond and they realized how foolish it is to tell followers of other religions how wrong they are. More and more Muslims value independent thought and want to reform Islam. A good example of how this can be done is given by Irshad Manji.


I skimmed through the Irshad Manji-thread and she seems worth checking out, even if one wouldn't necessarily agree with everything she says. The more I think about it the more I wonder what this idea of a reform is about, and how she thinks it should be done. I realize it starts with interpreting different verses of the Quran differently than has been done before, and I know that there are verses that are already being interpreted differently by various scholars today. But most of the basic meanings of the Quran are pretty clear, are they not?
 
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Well, the 'clay hypothesis' of abiogenesis has not been widely accepted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Cairns-Smith#Clay_hypothesis


But then again, if one's imaan if strong enough, Man might've been made from clay or wood or whatever. Be, and it is, you know.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

The Hijab is a symbol of sex segregation. That is its main purpose. It is not about modesty. If it were, men would have to wear it as well.
 
Did you read Nausheen's initial post?
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