IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Hijab - Freedom NOT Oppression : Opinion

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hakeema
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Posted: 13 August 2012 at 9:59pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

"Her logic is since some muslim attacked the twin tower muslims(even
though she met good ones) should be looked upon with suspiciously."Just to clarify... This is not my 'logic'.As I said, I was making a simple statement of facts... realities.Let me put it this way.If you lived in an African village and some white people came and destroyed half your village...Would you trust the next white person to walk into your village, or would you be concerned and cautious? Maybe even downright hostile?Reality is you would have a hard time trusting any white person who showed up at your village.

@Caringheart,

I asked you a similar question in regards to white people(plus I thought your were white) earlier and you never really answered them. Never mind, I have a deep feeling you knew what I asking and talking about anyway.

Edited by hakeema - 14 August 2012 at 12:13pm

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Caringheart

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Posted: 01 September 2012 at 11:58pm

I wonder, has anyone ever considered the origin of the hijab?
Did it originate with Islam?

Wasn't it the common form of dress among women living in desert areas as a means of protection?
Mary, mother of Jesus, is always depicted with head covering similar to what the nuns in the Catholic church wear to this day. All Catholic women, at one time, covered their heads to attend church services. If Mary dressed this way it must have been a custom of the women in that area of the world for practical purposes, long before Islam, and Islamic law, came along.
The term Islamic law in itself carries with it some concern. Didn't God say not to add to, or take away, from 'the Law' in Deuteronomy, which was given by Him? The ten commandments.
"Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do." These are the words Jesus spoke against the Pharisees.

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Abu Loren
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Posted: 02 September 2012 at 3:15am

Originally posted by Caringheart

I wonder, has anyone ever considered the origin of the hijab?
Did it originate with Islam?

Wasn't it the common form of dress among women living in desert areas as a means of protection?
Mary, mother of Jesus, is always depicted with head covering similar to what the nuns in the Catholic church wear to this day. All Catholic women, at one time, covered their heads to attend church services. If Mary dressed this way it must have been a custom of the women in that area of the world for practical purposes, long before Islam, and Islamic law, came along.
The term Islamic law in itself carries with it some concern. Didn't God say not to add to, or take away, from 'the Law' in Deuteronomy, which was given by Him? The ten commandments.
"Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do." These are the words Jesus spoke against the Pharisees.

Caringheart,

Another point that you have a hard time grasping.

The order to cover the heads of the believing women is not new and it wasn't first made in the Holy Qur'an. Women covered their heads when they attended the Temple in Jerusalem and all pious women dressed moderately.

Even your St. Paul says this in the New testament...

1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

As with everything else the Christians like to conveniently discard parts that they don't like and keep the parts they like. It's all about US and not about HIM.

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Caringheart

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Posted: 02 September 2012 at 12:45pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Caringheart,

Another point that you have a hard time grasping.

Even your St. Paul says this in the New testament...

1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

As with everything else the Christians like to conveniently discard parts that they don't like and keep the parts they like. It's all about US and not about HIM.

Actually, no Abu, you make my point. It's not just a Quran'ic thing. See, you always see me as an enemy, and I am not. It was written in the old testament for women to cover the head so that they would not be tempting to the Nephilim. As I mentioned, it used to be the custom in the Catholic church as well, and still is, for the brides of Christ, the nuns.

I actually did some research last night and it was very interesting. You should go read/research. Just Google origin of hijab.
Heart

Edited by Caringheart - 02 September 2012 at 12:56pm

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 02 September 2012 at 2:22pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Even your St. Paul says this in the New testament...

1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

But then, what does "covering" mean? If we read a bit farther, to verse 15: "But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering." In other words, as long as a woman has sufficient hair, i.e. if her hair is not shaved or cut very short, then her head is covered.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Abu Loren
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Posted: 02 September 2012 at 10:21pm

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Even your St. Paul says this in the New testament...

1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

This is the trouble with reading 'Ye Olde English' the proper meaning is 'the hair to be covered'. Read the whole chapter in context.

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 03 September 2012 at 7:10am

There are eighteen different translations of 1 Corinthians 11:15 at bible.cc, and not one of them says anything like "to be covered". There are indeed commentaries that claim it is not a sufficient covering, but they are embellishments of the text, not accurate translations.

And by the way, the context of this chapter is covering the head while praying or prophecying, not in secular life. Also note that Paul is describing a custom prevalent in his time (see verse 16), not a requirement dictated by God.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Matt Browne
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Posted: 11 September 2012 at 3:10am

Hakeema, I want women to be part of public life for many reasons, not just because it is a human right, one reason being that this makes world peace more likely. The Nazi elite was almost completely male and their evil ideology got more than 50 million people killed. Afghanistan under Taliban rule was completely run by men and I think it's no coincidence that Al-Qaeda's terror camps were set up there. Every woman wore the burqa and had to stay out public life and decision making. Girls were prevented from going to school. We all know what this did to the Afghan society. 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were citizens of Saudi Arabia, a country where 100% of women wear a niqab. Again, to me this is no coincidence. Both countries implemented a very conservative orthodox interpretation of Islam with a set of rules that considers Christians to be inferior and atheists to be heinous criminals. Are you really surprised that people in the West are scared of such world views? In more tolerant Islamic countries less women wear face veils. Western countries want to be friends with tolerant Islamic countries. And we want Muslim immigrants to be full members of our societies taking part in public life. This includes women.

Edited by Matt Browne - 11 September 2012 at 3:11am

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt

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Author	Message
hakeema Female Islam Groupie Joined: 10 October 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 97	Posted: 13 August 2012 at 9:59pm
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* "Her logic is since some muslim attacked the twin tower muslims(even though she met good ones) should be looked upon with suspiciously."Just to clarify... This is not my 'logic'.As I said, I was making a simple statement of facts... realities.Let me put it this way.If you lived in an African village and some white people came and destroyed half your village...Would you trust the next white person to walk into your village, or would you be concerned and cautious? Maybe even downright hostile?Reality is you would have a hard time trusting any white person who showed up at your village. @Caringheart, I asked you a similar question in regards to white people(plus I thought your were white) earlier and you never really answered them. Never mind, I have a deep feeling you knew what I asking and talking about anyway. Edited by hakeema - 14 August 2012 at 12:13pm
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1311	Posted: 01 September 2012 at 11:58pm
	I wonder, has anyone ever considered the origin of the hijab? Did it originate with Islam? Wasn't it the common form of dress among women living in desert areas as a means of protection? Mary, mother of Jesus, is always depicted with head covering similar to what the nuns in the Catholic church wear to this day. All Catholic women, at one time, covered their heads to attend church services. If Mary dressed this way it must have been a custom of the women in that area of the world for practical purposes, long before Islam, and Islamic law, came along. The term Islamic law in itself carries with it some concern. Didn't God say not to add to, or take away, from 'the Law' in Deuteronomy, which was given by Him? The ten commandments. "Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do." These are the words Jesus spoke against the Pharisees.
	IP Logged

Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 02 September 2012 at 3:15am
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* I wonder, has anyone ever considered the origin of the hijab? Did it originate with Islam? Wasn't it the common form of dress among women living in desert areas as a means of protection? Mary, mother of Jesus, is always depicted with head covering similar to what the nuns in the Catholic church wear to this day. All Catholic women, at one time, covered their heads to attend church services. If Mary dressed this way it must have been a custom of the women in that area of the world for practical purposes, long before Islam, and Islamic law, came along. The term Islamic law in itself carries with it some concern. Didn't God say not to add to, or take away, from 'the Law' in Deuteronomy, which was given by Him? The ten commandments. "Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do." These are the words Jesus spoke against the Pharisees. Caringheart, Another point that you have a hard time grasping. The order to cover the heads of the believing women is not new and it wasn't first made in the Holy Qur'an. Women covered their heads when they attended the Temple in Jerusalem and all pious women dressed moderately. Even your St. Paul says this in the New testament... 1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. As with everything else the Christians like to conveniently discard parts that they don't like and keep the parts they like. It's all about US and not about HIM.
	IP Logged

Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1311	Posted: 02 September 2012 at 12:45pm
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* *Originally posted by Caringheart* I wonder, has anyone ever considered the origin of the hijab? Did it originate with Islam? Wasn't it the common form of dress among women living in desert areas as a means of protection? Mary, mother of Jesus, is always depicted with head covering similar to what the nuns in the Catholic church wear to this day. All Catholic women, at one time, covered their heads to attend church services. If Mary dressed this way it must have been a custom of the women in that area of the world for practical purposes, long before Islam, and Islamic law, came along. Caringheart, Another point that you have a hard time grasping. The order to cover the heads of the believing women is not new and it wasn't first made in the Holy Qur'an. Women covered their heads when they attended the Temple in Jerusalem and all pious women dressed moderately. Even your St. Paul says this in the New testament... 1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. As with everything else the Christians like to conveniently discard parts that they don't like and keep the parts they like. It's all about US and not about HIM. Actually, no Abu, you make my point. It's not just a Quran'ic thing. See, you always see me as an enemy, and I am not. It was written in the old testament for women to cover the head so that they would not be tempting to the Nephilim. As I mentioned, it used to be the custom in the Catholic church as well, and still is, for the brides of Christ, the nuns. I actually did some research last night and it was very interesting. You should go read/research. Just Google origin of hijab. Edited by Caringheart - 02 September 2012 at 12:56pm
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1403	Posted: 02 September 2012 at 2:22pm
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* Even your St. Paul says this in the New testament... 1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. But then, what does "covering" mean? If we read a bit farther, to verse 15: "But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering." In other words, as long as a woman has sufficient hair, i.e. if her hair is not shaved or cut very short, then her head is covered.
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged

Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 02 September 2012 at 10:21pm
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* *Originally posted by Abu Loren* Even your St. Paul says this in the New testament... 1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. But then, what does "covering" mean? If we read a bit farther, to verse 15: "But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering." In other words, as long as a woman has sufficient hair, i.e. if her hair is not shaved or cut very short, then her head is covered. This is the trouble with reading 'Ye Olde English' the proper meaning is 'the hair to be covered'. Read the whole chapter in context.
	IP Logged

Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1403	Posted: 03 September 2012 at 7:10am
	There are eighteen different translations of 1 Corinthians 11:15 at bible.cc, and not one of them says anything like "to be covered". There are indeed commentaries that claim it is not a sufficient covering, but they are embellishments of the text, not accurate translations. And by the way, the context of this chapter is covering the head while praying or prophecying, not in secular life. Also note that Paul is describing a custom prevalent in his time (see verse 16), not a requirement dictated by God.
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged

Matt Browne Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 19 April 2010 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 755	Posted: 11 September 2012 at 3:10am
	Hakeema, I want women to be part of public life for many reasons, not just because it is a human right, one reason being that this makes world peace more likely. The Nazi elite was almost completely male and their evil ideology got more than 50 million people killed. Afghanistan under Taliban rule was completely run by men and I think it's no coincidence that Al-Qaeda's terror camps were set up there. Every woman wore the burqa and had to stay out public life and decision making. Girls were prevented from going to school. We all know what this did to the Afghan society. 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were citizens of Saudi Arabia, a country where 100% of women wear a niqab. Again, to me this is no coincidence. Both countries implemented a very conservative orthodox interpretation of Islam with a set of rules that considers Christians to be inferior and atheists to be heinous criminals. Are you really surprised that people in the West are scared of such world views? In more tolerant Islamic countries less women wear face veils. Western countries want to be friends with tolerant Islamic countries. And we want Muslim immigrants to be full members of our societies taking part in public life. This includes women. Edited by Matt Browne - 11 September 2012 at 3:11am
	A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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