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Message Icon Topic: Hijab - Freedom NOT Oppression : Opinion Post Reply Post New Topic
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2012 at 3:45am
Hakeema, I'm fully aware that there are two groups of women when it comes to wearing face veils. One group chooses to wear it and the other group is forced by their husbands to wear it. Just because you choose to wear it doesn't mean there are no women who are forced to wear it.

The vitamin D part is a side issue, though an important one. The key issue here is that Muslims don't respect non-Muslim cultures and dress codes when living in the Dar al-harb. And we people in the West are so foolish that we even tolerate intolerance. Allah hates us. Devout Muslims hate us and we say, oh, that's their culture and we have to respect different cultures.

We can't change the fact that women in Saudi Arabia and southern Afghanistan are treated like cattle. But we won't have any of this in Detroit, London, Paris, Madrid and Berlin. And that's not racist. That is defending values and our freedom and human rights.




Edited by Matt Browne - 12 August 2012 at 3:51am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote hakeema Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2012 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne


The vitamin D part is a side issue, though an important one. The key issue here is that Muslims don't respect non-Muslim cultures and dress codes when living in the Dar al-harb. And we people in the West are so foolish that we even tolerate intolerance. Allah hates us. Devout Muslims hate us and we say, oh, that's their culture and we have to respect different cultures.We can't change the fact that women in Saudi Arabia and southern Afghanistan are treated like cattle. But we won't have any of this in Detroit, London, Paris, Madrid and Berlin. And that's not racist. That is defending values and our freedom and human rights.


@Matt
What are non-Muslim cultures and dress code?
Do you feel that the Muslims on Islamicity don't respect non-Muslim culture and dress code?
Do you feel that the Muslims that you met or congregated with disrespects non-Muslim culture and dress code?
Did you a interview Muslims living in non-Muslim countries to come up with this conclusion?
I am a African-American(black)muslim women living in the west who wear hijabs(not face veil)and fully covers her body. I CONVERTED to Islam by the way. I bother no one, never broken the law, and planning to go to medical school in the near future. It is many more Muslims in the west who are like me. So I would like to know how am I disrespecting the non-Muslim culture and dress code? Since I converted do you think I am showing disrespect to the west since it is not a non-Muslim country?

On your profile it says that you are Christian. Are there are things in your religion that is forbidden and frowned up which is considered OK in non-Muslim countries? If so, would you disobey your religion in order to follow the culture and dress code of non-Christian countries? Do you feel that Christians should be going into non-Christian countries to try to get people to convert to their religion when they have there traditional cultural religion? Do you find their actions disrespectful? As a Christian how do feel about what Christians have done to disrespect the cultural and dress codes of Africans, Native Americans throughout history?

Speaking of Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. How do you feel about George Bush and many other oil company doing business in Saudi Arabia? How do you feel about the business relationship between the Bush Family and the Bin Laden family? What about the business deals done in Afghanistan? According to news reports U.S. companies invited the Taliban(before 9/11)to the U.S. to discussion business deal in building a pipe line through Afghanistan. How do you feel about that?





Edited by hakeema - 12 August 2012 at 12:56pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2012 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Honeto, covering arms and the face is not fulfilling a religious obligation. A modest dress is all that is needed. And this can be a jeans and a t-shirt.

Let's take the situation in Western countries. A modest person does not draw attention to their own real or supposed accomplishments and desirable attributes. But Muslim women wearing full-body covers including face veils are doing exactly that. They are not modest. They are boastful telling everyone: Look, here, a member of the world's best religion.


Good point Matt. 

It can not be considered modest if one is calling attention to oneself, no matter in what way it is being done.  Much like when Paul said, 'if it offends your companion for you to eat meat, then do not eat meat'... do not cause offense... consider the other persons position on the matter.  [paraphrased]

and I was thinking;

We must live according to the culture in which we find ourselves.

much as any non-Muslim in Saudi Arabia, or any country where Islamic law is enforced, must do.  They must not cause offense.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2012 at 2:10pm
@Hakeema
I imagine it depends how far back you go in African culture, and what tribes.  I did not mean to cause offense.  My main point was that as travel became more widespread cultures influenced one another, in good and not so good ways.  Wars are greatly responsible... sending soldiers away from wives for long periods of time and then coming upon beautiful, exotic, native women.  It has all had its influence, for good and for ill.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2012 at 2:23pm
@Nausheen,
I've only just read how this thread got started.  It has rather gone off track.  I think what you wrote and how you expressed your position was very well done.  I can see how this choice... as long as it is by choice... can be an empowering one.  I think the crux of the matter that people want to drive home is that very fact... it should be a matter of choice.  I do however still believe we must conform to the culture in which we live or we must move to a culture that is better suited... one that accommodates our desire if we can not find a suitable compromise in the culture in which we find ourselves.

Most people must conform since moving and uprooting, is not often an option.  Although thousands have been displaced from their homes on the continent of Africa, so it must not be entirely impossible.  By no means do I imply that it is a desirable choice, but

people throughout the ages have had to move in order to find freedom.

Even Muhammad recognized that if one must, then one must 'flee with his religion'.  It was apparently the prescribed solution.

I hope you are doing well,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 12 August 2012 at 2:30pm
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Quote hakeema Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2012 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Matt Browne

Honeto, covering arms and the face is not fulfilling a religious obligation. A modest dress is all that is needed. And this can be a jeans and a t-shirt. Let's take the situation in Western countries. A modest person does not draw attention to their own real or supposed accomplishments and desirable attributes. But Muslim women wearing full-body covers including face veils are doing exactly that. They are not modest. They are boastful telling everyone: Look, here, a member of the world's best religion.
Good point Matt. It can not be considered modest if one is calling attention to oneself, no matter in what way it is being done. Much like when Paul said, 'if it offends your companion for you to eat meat, then do not eat meat'... do not cause offense... consider the other persons position on the matter. [paraphrased]and I was thinking;We must live according to the culture in which we find ourselves.much as any non-Muslim in Saudi Arabia, or any country where Islamic law is enforced, must do. They must not cause offense.


In looking at all the post I realize too that the post got sort off track and it led to talking about face veil. The article wasn't about the face veil was talking about hijab. I become a muslim before 9/11 and no one really care about muslim women wearing the face veil or Hijab. Afterwards it was a big deal. Just curious what the real deal is here. Why is was it made into a big issue when in the beginning when it was not? Is the problem really about conforming to someone culture or a front to hide some real inner feeling here?

For the record, The majority of muslim women don't wear the face veil in non-Muslim countries especially in the west in first place. There are some muslim women who don't wear hijab due to fear or wanting to conform. So why are you painting all muslim women as being boastful(not you Caringheart)when the majority don't wear face veil.
Secondly, why are you painting all muslim as disrespecting non-muslim culture and dress code due to a minority of muslim women who wear face veil?
Muslims in the west eat at McDonald's, Burger King, buy jordan and nike every day.
Secondly, there are many fast food restaurants in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries that are owned by the west. There are also clothing store from Europe and The west found in muslim countries that do not adhere to muslim dress code. In Libya Cinnabon is opening up a franchise over there. One of Khaddafi sons had a internship over here. Secondly, both of us sons studied over here in the west but everybody saying bad things about their father. There are also companies from Europe and the west that have been investing in raw materials from Saudi Arabia and other muslim countries. So, what problem do you really have?

As far muslim women who wear face veil:
What have muslim women who have choosen to wear face veil ever done to you personally?
How has muslim women who choose to wear face veil ever stopped you from doing what you need to do in your life?
Have muslim women who have choose to wear face veil ever stopped you from going to school, getting a job, or anything like that?

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2012 at 6:43pm
Hakeema,
I am going to give a frank and honest answer to your question, but not with the intention of causing offense, but I do realize it will be offensive to any good and righteous person... and sometimes truth is offensive.  But we must deal with certain realities.
In answer to your question, "Why is was it made into a big issue when in the beginning when it was not?"

Because... after 9/11 happened people became aware of Islam.  They never gave much concern to it before because no one ever thinks of a religion as being a threat and a danger.  After 9/11 that perception changed, especially when we saw people dancing and celebrating in the streets over the deaths of thousands, and these people were people governed by a religion called Islam.  I have never seen anyone celebrate killing like that, let alone a 'religious' people.
 
Because... in our innocence and trust we allowed these so-called Muslims to sneak into our country, take advantage of our teaching and resources, and use them against us.  No one wants to make that mistake ever again.  It is good to know who your enemies are, and Muslims seem to be taught that everyone who is not not one of them is their enemy.  (I do not see how this is a teaching from a God who created us all as His children.)  Someone who is not a follower of God may be a cause for us to guard ourselves against temptation, but he should not be considered an enemy, just a misguided one whom you have the opportunity to guide... not to kill.  The onus falls on oneself to put on the full armor of God by always being in His Word... strengthening self, not attacking others.

The world wants to know who our enemies are, and if all Muslims, by association with the religion of Islam, are enemies and a danger to the world.
In short, we do not trust Islam.  We feel that we have been duped by it once, and that is one time too many.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh.  I'm just laying out the facts in answer to the question.


I don't think anyone has said 'all' Muslims.
[Edit:  except me, in this very post, because as I have explained to someone else... if you are not allowed to leave the religion once you say you are a Muslim, then you will belong to 'all' Muslims and required to do whatever your leaders tell you you must do in order to live.  This is what happened to the German people when Naziism took over.  They could not get out.  This is how armies are formed... on threat of penalty for leaving.  It is important to know what you are signing on for and pray that you are not duped.]

But to your other question about the threat of hijab.  I think Matt has explained, we like to be able to see a persons face, to see what is in their eyes, to see their smile or their sneer.  We want to see who we are dealing with.
I have earlier said that a hijab could easily be used to hide a man, someone wishing to hide weapons such as explosives... someone wishing to do harm.
The general public can feel safer without the hijab, and if that is the way they want it... for their own safety... that is how it ought to be.

This is my opinion,
Caringheart

I bear no hard feeling towards Muslims themselves.  I know there are many good Muslims, who also deserve their freedoms.  God created us free... all of us... even those with different beliefs.
I find it hard to trust Islam and its followers since it is practiced in so many different forms and no one seems to be able to come into one agreement.  I do not trust where this word of Muhammad comes from.  I am however reading the Qur'an and studying to get a better idea of what it is that people are obligated to follow when they call themselves Muslim.

May peace and enlightenment come to us all. Heart


Edited by Caringheart - 12 August 2012 at 6:52pm
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Quote hakeema Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2012 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Hakeema,I am going to give a frank and honest answer to your question, but not with the intention of causing offense, but I do realize it will be offensive to any good and righteous person... and sometimes truth is offensive. But we must deal with certain realities.In answer to your question, "Why is was it made into a big issue when in the beginning when it was not?"Because... after 9/11 happened people became aware of Islam. They never gave much concern to it before because no one ever thinks of a religion as being a threat and a danger. After 9/11 that perception changed, especially when we saw people dancing and celebrating in the streets over the deaths of thousands, and these people were people governed by a religion called Islam. I have never seen anyone celebrate killing like that, let alone a 'religious' people. Because... in our innocence and trust we allowed these so-called Muslims to sneak into our country, take advantage of our teaching and resources, and use them against us. No one wants to make that mistake ever again. It is good to know who your enemies are, and Muslims seem to be taught that everyone who is not not one of them is their enemy. (I do not see how this is a teaching from a God who created us all as His children.) Someone who is not a follower of God may be a cause for us to guard ourselves against temptation, but he should not be considered an enemy, just a misguided one whom you have the opportunity to guide... not to kill. The onus falls on oneself to put on the full armor of God by always being in His Word... strengthening self, not attacking others.The world wants to know who our enemies are, and if all Muslims, by association with the religion of Islam, are enemies and a danger to the world.In short, we do not trust Islam. We feel that we have been duped by it once, and that is one time too many.I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. I'm just laying out the facts in answer to the question.

I don't think anyone has said 'all' Muslims.But to your other question about the threat of hijab. I think Matt has explained, we like to be able to see a persons face, to see what is in their eyes, to see their smile or their sneer. We want to see who we are dealing with.I have earlier said that a hijab could easily be used to hide a man, someone wishing to hide weapons such as explosives... someone wishing to do harm.The general public can feel safer without the hijab, and if that is the way they want it... for their own safety... that is how it ought to be. This is my opinion,CaringheartI bear no hard feeling towards Muslims themselves. I know there are many good Muslims, who also deserve their freedoms. God created us free... all of us... even those with different beliefs.I find it hard to trust Islam and its followers since it is practiced in so many different forms and no one seems to be able to come into one agreement. I do not trust where this word of Muhammad comes from. I am however reading the Qur'an and studying to get a better idea of what it is that people are obligated to follow when they call themselves Muslim.May peace and enlightenment come to us all. [IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />


@Caringheart,
Are you a white person? If so, should the same thing be said about white people in Europe and in the west? Many white people have entered(and still do) into many countries in Africa, the Americas and Asia where they were accepted but raped, robbed and killed non-white people all over the world. This also created the system of white supremacy to burst on the seen and it still affects non-white people worldwide.

When black African come to the Americas they weren't not allowed to practice their culture, traditional religion, or speak their own native language. Even today there issues with black who want to embrace some aspects of African culture. For example, in the corporate jobs in the west black people are encouraged not to wear their hair natural such as dreadlocks and afro. It has to be permed and straightened like white people hair. Gabby Douglas(U.S. olympic gymnast) hair was made of fun as well. She is also symbolized as animal as well. She called the "Flying squirrel". White people have always equated black people with animals as well. In regards to the Native Americans. They were also killed off, were not allowed to pratice their culture and they still being mistreated due to race. When I take off my hijab I am seen as a black person and have mistreated by white people due to the fact that I am not white. Osama Bin Laden have never called me nigger or mistreated me on the basis of color but white people surely have throughout my life. Recently in Wisconsin a white supremacist shot people in a Sikh Temple. Currently their are many white people who still harbor white supremacy ideas and today white supremacy is still practiced on a more subtle level. I notice that white people more are slick with practicing white supremacy. Ever since Obama has became president it has grown more and more. There are white people who are government officials who have made racist statements about President Obama and some have called out for his murder.   To this day there are numerous accounts of black people and other non-white being mistreated due to color. It also has increased since Obama has been president. So should I as a black person be suspicious of white people with the track record that white people have?

Also when Timothy McVeigh bombed the building in Oklahoma why weren't Christian white males look upon suspiciously. Most cerial killers have been white males as well so should white males looked at suspiciously?

Since you are a Christain can the same be said about Christians because the track record of Christians is still not clean. Do White Christians still teach black Christians that they are the curse children of Ham? Is the real color of Jesus being represented?

Speaking of 9/11 I am learning that the American government is not that naive. In many Hollywood movies the mention of the twin tower being blown up have been repeated wayyyyy before 9/11. Since it was mention in Hollywood movies somebody had to know something. If you go into Microsoft word and put a code in you'll find a star of david, a airplane, the twin towers and a skull and bones. I am gonna find that code and post it. So somebody had to know something. Speaking of 9/11 being done by muslims. I am wondering if 9/11 was actually done by muslims. I am wondering if this is the biggest blame non-white people that I have ever seen in my life. I do notice that non-white people, espcially black people have a tendency to be blamed for corrupt things in America. Secondly you stated that you saw video of Muslim dancing in the street after 9/11. How do you know if there were really dancing the street because of 9/11?

I mean the Bush family been doing business transactions with the Bin Laden family, and business transaction with the Taliban so a pipe line can be built in Afghanistan. Many white corporation in America and Europe always been investing in muslim countries for raw resources and building white owned franchise in those countries. So, y'all is not scared of muslims so don't bring that crap to me.

Edited by hakeema - 13 August 2012 at 3:34am
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