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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Islam, is it a culture or a religion? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2012 at 3:07am
One more thing: Here's a good example of the difference between culture and religion:

Honor killings are part of Arab culture, but they are not part of the Qur'an or the Sunnah. I can't think of a single example that requires raped women to be stoned. Do you?

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2012 at 1:34am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

One more thing: Here's a good example of the difference between culture and religion:

Honor killings are part of Arab culture, but they are not part of the Qur'an or the Sunnah. I can't think of a single example that requires raped women to be stoned. Do you?

 
Just where do you get this notion that raped women are stoned Islamically? The only time a woman is stoned is if she has committed adultery.
 
You seem to imply through your posts that you know something about Islam that the rest of the 1.5 billion muslims do not. But it is obvious from your posts that you do not know anything about Islam not about Muslims. Yet you keep making st**id Nazi like comments.
 
It probably turns your sterilised Western stomach to learn of the punishment of stoning and cutting off the hand of the thief if caught. These are not man made laws but comes directly from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. If you read the Bible then you will know the 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' law. If you knew anything at all then you would know that the Mosaic Law and the Shari'a Law are very similar if not identical. This is because these laws come directly from the One True God Allah Subhana Wa T'ala.
 
I think it's about time you stopped making st**id posts about subjects you obviously know nothing about.
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2012 at 11:11am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

One more thing: Here's a good example of the difference between culture and religion:Honor killings are part of Arab culture, but they are not part of the Qur'an or the Sunnah. I can't think of a single example that requires raped women to be stoned. Do you?



Matt, you are right in Islam, the Quran does not teach honor killing. It must be a cultural thing, not jsut limited to the Arabs either.
In religious teaching it is surprising that only the Judeo-Christian teaching command honor killings:
In the Bible we read:
Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2012 at 11:14am
Matt,
are you a secular-Catholic?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2012 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

One more thing: Here's a good example of the difference between culture and religion:

Honor killings are part of Arab culture, but they are not part of the Qur'an or the Sunnah. I can't think of a single example that requires raped women to be stoned. Do you?


Hi Matt,
There is confusion on this issue.
The quran and hadith differ on punishment for adultery, which I do not understand.  If the qur'an was the word of God(Allah) shouldn't the hadith agree with the quran?

Qur'an prescribes flogging not stoning in surah 24.
However;
"Nearly all hadith collections include three hadiths that are central in the legal arguments about the punishment for zina:

    One to the effect that the Prophet has enforced this punishment in a case of unlawful intercourse among Jews on the basis of the Torah;
    a second one, transmitted by Abu Hurairah states that the Prophet, in a case of intercourse between a young man and a married woman, sentenced the woman to stoning and the young man to flogging and banishment for a year;
    and a third one in which Umar al-Khattab asserts that there was a revelation to the effect that those who are muhsan (i.e. an adult, free, Muslim who has previously enjoyed legitimate sexual relations in matrimony regardless of whether the marriage still exists) and have unlawful intercourse are to be punished with stoning.

The hadith related by Abu Hurairah has been the basis of the fiqh doctrine.

The most accepted collection of Hadith Sahih al Bukhari has 4 entries (under 3829, 8804, 8805 and 8824) which refer to death by stoning. One case involved Jews who were stoned to death in accordance with the Law of the Torah (not the Qur'an). ... the narrator acknowledges his ignorance of whether the stoning to death was carried out before or after the revelation of Quranic Verse 24-2"
(from wikipedia)

If quran supercedes the torah according to Allah, then obviously it would not be right if Jews were stoned following Torah and not treated the same as others by the quran, if surah 24 had been revealed.

Even marriage can be unclear in Islamic tradition, since first a contract is made... which is considered 'marriage' because exchange of dowry is made... but no marriage ceremony takes place until one year later.  So what happens in between time?  When do relations become acceptable?  I understand that often after a contract has been made the wedding never happens, and thus it is considered that there never was a marriage.  What does this mean in terms of chastity?  What now happens to a woman if she was under the understanding that she was married but one year later finds herself not married.


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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:26am
I said that some raped women are stoned because of culture, and not because of Islam.

Abu Loren, you seem to be telling me that because of my non-Muslim background I can't join this public conversation. In effect, you're reducing me to my demographics instead of elevating us to shared values. Are you saying that we can't comment on Wall Street's greed, because we are not part of the banking culture? Are you saying that you and I can't comment on racial discrimination that still exists in the US, because you and I are not part of American culture?

Rest assured, Abu Loren, that I'm respecting you. By engaging with you, I'm respecting your mind, soul and substance. If I doubted that you've got any of these, I wouldn't waste my energy. If you still take refuge in defensiveness and keep using Nazi comparisons, though, you're suggesting that you're an automaton who's easily unhinged by comments made by non-Muslims. How are you respecting yourself?



Edited by Matt Browne - 04 December 2012 at 5:28am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:36am
Originally posted by honeto

Matt, you are right in Islam, the Quran does not teach honor killing. It must be a cultural thing, not just limited to the Arabs either.


I totally agree. A good example is Sicily in Italy. Plenty of honor killings there.

Originally posted by honeto


In religious teaching it is surprising that only the Judeo-Christian teaching command honor killings. In the Bible we read: Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Hasan


Yes, and this is why two things are so important

1) We need to understand the historical context of when this was written
2) We need to make sure that religions have the capability to evolve

In Qur'an 4:24 we read:

"Also forbidden are women already married, except slave girls (those whom your right hands possess). Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you agree mutually after the requirement has been determined, there is no sin on you."

Like Christianity, the understanding of Islam has evolved and I can't think of an Islamic scholar who promotes slavery. In the 7th century slavery was part of the culture, but it is no longer in the 21st century. Slavery is wrong.

For the same reason, the death penalty for adulterers is wrong. Leviticus 20:10 isn't applied anymore.

Btw, I'm a secular German Protestant.




Edited by Matt Browne - 04 December 2012 at 5:37am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:41am
Originally posted by Caringheart

The quran and hadith differ on punishment for adultery, which I do not understand.  If the qur'an was the word of God(Allah) shouldn't the hadith agree with the quran?


Maybe Abu Loren or Hasan can comment on this. Not all hadiths are considered authentic (sahih) or good (hasan). Some are seen as weak (daif). This might explain the contradiction.

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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