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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Islam, is it a culture or a religion? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Reepicheep
 
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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2012 at 4:54pm
Abu Loren wrote: You've probably lived in the same community for those 53 years.
 
Nope.  I've lived in three Canadian provinces, have lived in multiple cities and towns in those provinces, and have attended Christmas Eve church services at more than one church in some of those cities.
 
****************************
 
Abu Loren wrote: I know many many many many Christians who will only grace the footsteps of a church on Christmas Eve, after getting drunk and out of their minds.
 
Abu Loren wrote: I've seen many Christians getting drunk and attending church.
 
OK, let's establish exactly what you are claiming, so we can determine whether or not you are making false claims against Christians and therefore deserve to spend eternity in hell.
 
You seem to be making contradictory claims.  Please clarify the following
 
(1) are you making this accusation against "many" Christians, or "many many many many" Christians?
 
(2) are you accusing these Christians of being merely "drunk", or "drunk and out of their minds"?
 
(3) did these incidents you claim to have witnessed all occur on Christmas Eve, or did they occur at other times of the year, too?
 


Edited by Reepicheep - 24 July 2012 at 5:17pm
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2012 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

 I used to be a Christian and I've seen many Christians getting drunk and attending church.
 
Just being realistic.
 


Culture vs religion
Culture or religion?
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2012 at 7:16pm
 
Originally posted by Abu Loren


...
The sad thing about that is that these countries are oil rich and the ordinary people should be living a comfortable life, instead most live in squalor.


I agree.  It is sad.  Especially when you look at the Byzantine era.
Oil - was it a blessing from God, or a curse from somewhere else?
It should be a blessing. 
Disapprove

Disapprove

afterthought:
If these are Islamic states, and they follow the rule of Islam... doesn't that raise the question of why do they have "tyrants who suppress the people"?
Didn't Muhammad teach differently and supposedly set a different example?


Edited by Caringheart - 24 July 2012 at 7:29pm
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2012 at 9:06am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Islam is a cultural, religious and political system.



Wrong. In what way is Islam cultural or political?


Try this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_culture

and

"Political Islam is the creation of an Islamic State, which is elevated by using the legal guidance of the Sharia. It provides an Islamic system of governance for Muslims, as a legal and moral guide both in their private and public lives. Therefore, political Islam refers to Muslims and social movements who actively seek to implement Islam in the public as well as the private realm."

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2012 at 9:21am
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Abu Loren wrote: You've probably lived in the same community for those 53 years.
 
Nope.  I've lived in three Canadian provinces, have lived in multiple cities and towns in those provinces, and have attended Christmas Eve church services at more than one church in some of those cities.
 
****************************
 
Abu Loren wrote: I know many many many many Christians who will only grace the footsteps of a church on Christmas Eve, after getting drunk and out of their minds.
 
Abu Loren wrote: I've seen many Christians getting drunk and attending church.
 
OK, let's establish exactly what you are claiming, so we can determine whether or not you are making false claims against Christians and therefore deserve to spend eternity in hell.
 
You seem to be making contradictory claims.  Please clarify the following
 
(1) are you making this accusation against "many" Christians, or "many many many many" Christians?
 
(2) are you accusing these Christians of being merely "drunk", or "drunk and out of their minds"?
 
(3) did these incidents you claim to have witnessed all occur on Christmas Eve, or did they occur at other times of the year, too?
 
 
Even if one Christian gets drunk and goes to church is bad.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2012 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Many Islamic states are run by tyrants who suppress the people and they live a life of luxury. The sad thing about that is that these countries are oil rich and the ordinary people should be living a comfortable life, instead most live in squalor.


Came across this while I was doing research on India today;

Indians did not suddenly become non-violent on September 30 in honour of Gandhi's birthday two days later. But they have, almost imperceptibly, turned anti-violence. The young are bewildered that their parents could have chosen chaos over construction, and acid over an economy. Their elders have abandoned nightmares from the past and joined a modern dream. The spirit of peace did not descend from leaders to the people, it rose from the street to the corridors of governance and justice. Politicians understood that if yesterday violence meant murder, today it means suicide.

The last time both Ayodhya and Kashmir were inflammatory was the period between 1990 and 1992: the fire across India was complemented by a rage for 'azadi' in the valley. We know what has changed in the Ayodhya confrontation. The poor have realised that poverty is not communal. They want the self-respect that comes with a full stomach; they have enough places to pray. This has dampened the politics of every form of communalism. But something has changed in the Kashmir scenario as well. The promise of Pakistan as the elixir and purist paradise for Muslims has collapsed for a second time. In 1971 it exploded and Bangladesh was born. By 2010 Pakistan has visibly imploded. Many more Muslims are dying of manufactured violence in Pakistan than in India.

citation: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/a-peace-of-land/1/114787.html
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Reepicheep
 
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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2012 at 6:12am
Abu Loren wrote:  Even if one Christian gets drunk and goes to church is bad.
 
Agreed.  But that's not what we are discussing.  We are discussing the following:
 
Abu Loren wrote: I know many many many many Christians who will only grace the footsteps of a church on Christmas Eve, after getting drunk and out of their minds.
 
There have no doubt been many cases where Christians have gone to church drunk, although I have never, in 53 years of going to church, ever witnessed this myself.  That is why I have trouble accepting your claim that you know "many many many many" Christians who only go to church on Christmas Eve who are "drunk and out of their minds".
 
I suspect your statement is a lie and, in fact, you don't know ANY Christians who meet the criteria of your accusation.  Correct?
 
If you know of even one such incident, then please tell us about it.


Edited by Reepicheep - 27 July 2012 at 6:15am
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2012 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

 
Even if one Christian gets drunk and goes to church is bad.


This just hit me today.

Even if one person gets drunk, and does not go to church, it is bad.  In, or out of church, it is a bad thing.

The more important issue that I think is being addressed is... is it right to condemn all persons of one faith because of the actions of a few, or even the many?

What did Abraham say when God went to punish Sodom and Gommorha?
Why did God save Noah?

Because there are always some good, mixed in with the bad, unable to escape the ways of others... the culture.

Appropriately, we are addressing culture vs. religion.

I agree that a great deal of what ails the western world could be eliminated if alcohol was eliminated.  (and drugs)  How are we to do this?  All things we have were put here by God.  How do we get people to not use and abuse them?

Even in Biblical times people drank wine.

I was just watching a show the other day that said that there is no alcohol permitted in Islamic countries.  I would like to know how this is monitored, implemented, and controlled... and I wonder how effectively.  In the United States there was the prohibition era and it did not work.  It only increased criminal activity.  It was one of the worst periods in the history of America.  People always find a way to get what they want.
Is there really no fruit brandy's partaken of in the homes of any Muslims?  I would be fascinated to know.

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