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Interfaith Dialogue
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2012 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by Bigmo




So basically, according to what you are saying here, it shows that God intended for His rule to reign and as has always happened in the past, rulers and leaders do not follow the rule of God. The problem that I see in Islam is that these rulers still believe that they are ruling according to what their religion teaches. The religion needs to be separated from earthly rule since obviously no earthly man, or ruler, has ever been able to abide by the rules of God.

When you read the ancient scriptures you see that God always anointed one earthly ruler and a separate spiritual leader.

Narated By Anas : Allah's Apostle said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others." - Sahih Bukhari Volume 003, Book 043, Hadith Number 624.
Does America not fulfill the command of this Hadith?
"While non-retaliation against a personal injury is frequently a virtue (see the Holy Qur’an, chapter 41 verse 34), Islam believes that human communities have the right to collective self-defense, since non-resistance to aggression would result in a world dominated by tyrants (see Holy Qur’an, 22:40). Under some circumstances, Muslim scholars will allow oppressed peoples to rebel against their oppressors. They might, therefore, classify the American War of Independence as a form of jihad, broadly understood. When Bosnia was faced with ethnic cleansing in 1992, the Muslim authorities there authorized the use of force to defend the country’s Muslim minority. The alternative would have been mass murder and mass rape, and therefore jihad was lawful. Furthermore, some Muslim scholars will permit a non-defensive ‘idealist’ war to establish justice and freedom in a neighboring country. This is analogous, perhaps, to the decision of the United Kingdom to declare war on Germany on September 3, 1939, in response to the German invasion of Poland. There are more recent analogies as well, including very recent instances in which Western powers have used force to overthrow tyrants such as Saddam Hussein."

(citation: http://ageofjahiliyah.wordpress.com/2007/09/01/abdal-hakim-murad-on-jihad-apostasy-rights-of-muslim-women/)

With the U.S. they act in order to do good in the world.

I am sure that Islamic leaders believe that they are acting to do good in the world. The question is do the actions of Islamic leaders benefit anyone?

This which you posted gave me a much better understanding and acceptance of Muhammad.  If what I read is true.  I must still complete my study of the Qur'an.  It is Muslims that need to know, understand, and accept these verses.  Then it may be that we will be able to live in peace in the world.

When I read these verses that you shared I can say;

"So Muhammad did bring a good message", one that matches the Christian message.  It is the Sunnah that creates difficulty.  It seems to me then that Islam needs to do away with the Sunnah since apparently it only applied to a certain period of time in history.

Thank you for this post.  It is very helpful to understanding.
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Bigmo
 
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Quote Bigmo Replybullet Posted: 31 July 2012 at 1:38pm
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Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Bigmo




So basically, according to what you are saying here, it shows that God intended for His rule to reign and as has always happened in the past, rulers and leaders do not follow the rule of God. The problem that I see in Islam is that these rulers still believe that they are ruling according to what their religion teaches. The religion needs to be separated from earthly rule since obviously no earthly man, or ruler, has ever been able to abide by the rules of God.

When you read the ancient scriptures you see that God always anointed one earthly ruler and a separate spiritual leader.

Narated By Anas : Allah's Apostle said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others." - Sahih Bukhari Volume 003, Book 043, Hadith Number 624.
Does America not fulfill the command of this Hadith?
"While non-retaliation against a personal injury is frequently a virtue (see the Holy Qur’an, chapter 41 verse 34), Islam believes that human communities have the right to collective self-defense, since non-resistance to aggression would result in a world dominated by tyrants (see Holy Qur’an, 22:40). Under some circumstances, Muslim scholars will allow oppressed peoples to rebel against their oppressors. They might, therefore, classify the American War of Independence as a form of jihad, broadly understood. When Bosnia was faced with ethnic cleansing in 1992, the Muslim authorities there authorized the use of force to defend the country’s Muslim minority. The alternative would have been mass murder and mass rape, and therefore jihad was lawful. Furthermore, some Muslim scholars will permit a non-defensive ‘idealist’ war to establish justice and freedom in a neighboring country. This is analogous, perhaps, to the decision of the United Kingdom to declare war on Germany on September 3, 1939, in response to the German invasion of Poland. There are more recent analogies as well, including very recent instances in which Western powers have used force to overthrow tyrants such as Saddam Hussein."

(citation: http://ageofjahiliyah.wordpress.com/2007/09/01/abdal-hakim-murad-on-jihad-apostasy-rights-of-muslim-women/)

With the U.S. they act in order to do good in the world.

I am sure that Islamic leaders believe that they are acting to do good in the world. The question is do the actions of Islamic leaders benefit anyone?

This which you posted gave me a much better understanding and acceptance of Muhammad.  If what I read is true.  I must still complete my study of the Qur'an.  It is Muslims that need to know, understand, and accept these verses.  Then it may be that we will be able to live in peace in the world.

When I read these verses that you shared I can say;

"So Muhammad did bring a good message", one that matches the Christian message.  It is the Sunnah that creates difficulty.  It seems to me then that Islam needs to do away with the Sunnah since apparently it only applied to a certain period of time in history.

Thank you for this post.  It is very helpful to understanding.
Heart
 
The hadith you posted is not consistent with how the Quran understands justice.
 
The Quran says:
 
“O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even if it be against yourselves, your parents, and your relatives, or whether it is against the rich or the poor...” (Quran 4:135)
 
What the hadith did was made a compromise between the tribal form of justice (stick by your tribal brethren right or wrong) and the proper form of juctice by telling the Mulim you should never go against another Muslim but simply prevent him from doing wrog. That is not what the Koran said. The Koran said that justice sometimes require you to go against your relative and even yourself and not just try to prevent him from doing wrong. What happens if the other person refuses to listen? Then you can say well I tried. That ain't good enough.
 
Another hadiths that violates the Quran.
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2012 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
what you have just said above mean, that there was nothing new about love then. How you described that those who love God will be successful was always the way, and that is how in Islam God has told us. Those who love God and show that love in practice to Him and to His creation are the one achieving salvation.
So, that love was nothing new as you all try to portray when you say: " Love" was a new thing, it was not.
Thanks,
Hasan
Hello Hasan,If I understood you correctly here(and I am not sure that I have), you have side tracked.God of the old testament was about punishment.  'Do as I say or there will be punishment.'Jesus taught 'love God as He loves you'.  Jesus showed us how much God loves us.Is Islam about punishment for disobedience(reward for good), or is it about being changed for love of God?  Does Islam teach old testament or new testament, or both?Isn't Islam's teaching more about serving self than about serving God?Do this and you will get that...as opposed to love God because He so loves you and this is what He deserves.


Caringheart,
I feel you have some ideas of your own and that's OK.
Let me get this straight from you.
In OT God said to obey me and I will give you eternal Paradise. If you disobey I will punish you in hell fire.
In FT, the Quran, God said the same thing as above and we Muslims believe it that way.
Are you saying that in NT, God says whether you obey me or not I will not punish you and grant you paradise because I love you?
Hasan



Edited by honeto - 07 August 2012 at 12:55pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2012 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by honeto


Are you saying that in NT, God says whether you obey me or not I will not punish you and grant you paradise because I love you?
Hasan



Oh no!  Absolutely not.
The new testament shows us that the way to come into obedience is through Love... the Love that God showed for us, which in turn creates great devotion in us, to Him.
Who can not owe their life to One who gave His life for them?

It is understanding this great sacrifice that causes us to want to be pleasing to God... to not hurt Him, which of course, in turn, saves us from hurting ourselves.  It is our great thankfulness for the gift.

Obedience to God protects us, but of course in our human frailty we tend to be blind to this fact.  Obedience for obedience sake seems to us to  have little reward.  But obedience for Loves sake that is different.  Obedience for Loves sake, that has great reward in our hearts, and as a result, in our lives.
Smile Heart

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

the words of Jesus. Heart




Edited by Caringheart - 08 August 2012 at 2:23pm
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2012 at 2:33pm
Caringheart,
so you are saying:
1- that as a Christian you are not obligated to obey God, if one do it it is out of love. Is that it?
2-..that God died?
Hasan




Edited by honeto - 09 August 2012 at 2:34pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2012 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
so you are saying:
1- that as a Christian you are not obligated to obey God, if one do it it is out of love. Is that it?
2-..that God died?
Hasan



We are obligated to obey... We, all of us who wish to belong to God and His kingdom, will answer for any disobedience to His law on judgement day.  God, through Jesus, said, "In My kingdom are many mansions".
It's Love though that pulls the followers of Jesus into obedience.  Love makes it easy.  It's not for self that you do it.  It's for love of Him and His sacrifice, His suffering, that you do it, and by proxy receive the benefit of that Love... by being obedient.   "My yoke is easy, My burden is light" - The words of Jesus.  It's like a circle... to quote the recent Olympian, Gabby Douglas... the glory goes up to Him and the blessings fall down on me.

I honestly don't know what is meant to happen to the Hindu's, Buddhists, and other religions, who serve different gods.  I only know the law for those of us who wish to belong to the one God.

God can not die.  The human form of God, in Jesus, died and rose again to heaven.  It is what the people in Rome(who later called themselves Christians) saw, and what those who call themselves Christian today, see to be true.

Others have other belief.  I do not know what happens to them.  I know what the religions say... but "do I have the mind of God" to know all?  Maybe we are not all meant to go to this God, only those who choose Him.  The Bible says that only those who are called by God will come.

Sorry, I tend to get long winded.  It is a complicated subject and one dear to my heart.

I can not believe God will condemn all mankind.  He saved Noah.  He did not condemn all of Sodom and Gomorrah.  According to the Bible, at Jesus second coming all will see the Truth and have a chance to amend their ways and come to Him.  They will endure the tribulation time.
Heart


Edited by Caringheart - 09 August 2012 at 9:55pm
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2012 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart, so you are saying:
1- that as a Christian you are not obligated to obey God, if one do it it is out of love. Is that it?
2-..that God died?
Hasan

Just to join in. We are told as Christians to love God with all our hearts and mind and strength. If you love someone you will want to please them and in God's case that means avoiding sin and doing good works. There are of course laws but for a Christian there is more to it than that because we want to do God's will and seek out and follow his plan for our lives and you cannot find that written down anywhere.

The mortal body of Jesus died just like our mortal bodies will eventually die so your question does not make entire sense unless of course you believe that when the mortal part dies nothing remains, that is the end for eternity?

Edited by bunter - 10 August 2012 at 4:11pm
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 13 August 2012 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
so you are saying:
1- that as a Christian you are not obligated to obey God, if one do it it is out of love. Is that it?
2-..that God died?
Hasan

We are obligated to obey... We, all of us who wish to belong to God and His kingdom, will answer for any disobedience to His law on judgement day.  God, through Jesus, said, "In My kingdom are many mansions". It's Love though that pulls the followers of Jesus into obedience.  Love makes it easy.  It's not for self that you do it.  It's for love of Him and His sacrifice, His suffering, that you do it, and by proxy receive the benefit of that Love... by being obedient.   "My yoke is easy, My burden is light" - The words of Jesus.  It's like a circle... to quote the recent Olympian, Gabby Douglas... the glory goes up to Him and the blessings fall down on me.I honestly don't know what is meant to happen to the Hindu's, Buddhists, and other religions, who serve different gods.  I only know the law for those of us who wish to belong to the one God.God can not die.  The human form of God, in Jesus, died and rose again to heaven.  It is what the people in Rome(who later called themselves Christians) saw, and what those who call themselves Christian today, see to be true.Others have other belief.  I do not know what happens to them.  I know what the religions say... but "do I have the mind of God" to know all?  Maybe we are not all meant to go to this God, only those who choose Him.  The Bible says that only those who are called by God will come.Sorry, I tend to get long winded.  It is a complicated subject and one dear to my heart.I can not believe God will condemn all mankind.  He saved Noah.  He did not condemn all of Sodom and Gomorrah.  According to the Bible, at Jesus second coming all will see the Truth and have a chance to amend their ways and come to Him.  They will endure the tribulation time.[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />


Caringheart,
you said, "we are obligated to obey". It is the same we believe, so nothing different. Rest of what you wrote on this matter seem only babble. I remember reading clearly in your Bible " if your hand commits a sin to cut it off, so your whole body won't be thrown into hell fire because of it". We believe same, so no difference then.

On the issue of "God died?" you said: "The human form of God, in Jesus". So what you are saying is that Jesus was God in human form. I also remember a verse from your Bible that disprove that claim (this is Jesus' words, who you say was God in a human body):
"I am going to my father and your father, to my God and your God".
With this quote from your source, I just showed you that whom you thought and claimed to be God, in fact saying that he as a God. And that's not just a contradiction but a big offence to God.
Also there is another problem, you just said that it was God in human body. But I remember you say before that he is actually son of God!
I leave you with your problems to solve, I am thankful to God, that we don't have any such things in Islam.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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