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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2012 at 8:28pm
Heart
Originally posted by iec786




Salaam[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />
[/QUOTE]

Hello Ismail,
"me neither lol"
Glad you can laugh and smile with me.
"This is the division and the fire of which Jesus speaks.  dont you think that was a bit to harsh?"
Hmmm, not really.  I have seen it happen in my family, as my children went into the world and sin took hold... them walking away from God.  I literally could see the battle going on between good and evil.  I will not abandon my God and it truly has caused very painful division in the family.  I have been painfully aware of the pain we cause to our Creator.  Two of my children are away from God and away from the family.  I am divided in my family of origin as well... my mother, my sister... they do not know God.  So choosing to follow Him truly is choosing to take up one's cross and bear it... truly loving and trusting God above all else.  It truly separates us from others.  Choosing God truly causes divisions.  I can see why God would be anxious to see this pain and division among His creation be at an end.  This is why I have respect for the Muslim family and culture... they seem to have remained more insulated from the evil influences of the world.   They are still holding it together in obedience to God more so than those who have been exposed to so much freedom for so long.  I do wonder how long it will last even in the Muslim community.  The Amish have kept their communities mainly unpolluted in a polluted world.  More so than anyone else I say.  I do wonder how far evil has permeated even into the Muslim culture... abuse in the family, divorce.   The evil one prevails greater and greater in the world.
"now my sister this is why i always say if you have the Old testament and you have a New testament why not the final Testament Al-Quraan the last Testament.Peace be unto you. "
You make me smile.  I very much appreciate your answer and this is why I am seeking.
Simple answer though;
because I am not convinced of Muhammad as prophet of God. 
My feelings about Muhammad are mixed and inconclusive.  I feel that though Muhammad  may have tried to bring the Word of God, that another may have had influence over him.  He is the one who changes the Word, and 'preaches a different Gospel than the one that has been given'.  I fear that though Muhammad may have tried to bring the Word of God,  that good may have been used for evil... the devil is a master of deception and a little bit of truth makes a thing easier to sell.   I don't like that the word as given by Muhammad promotes division and prejudice among people.  It teaches against the Christ who has already come.  We were warned about these things that would come. 
'Who is it that causes division among you?'
Who causes disentions?
I can not accept the word of Muhammad because he was always changing it to fit circumstances.
I can not accept it because it speaks against whole groups of people.
He spoke against certain people, "Jews and people of the Book", with no distinction.  He doesn't just speak against the wayward, those who quite obviously serve only their own selfish pleasures and are a bane to society.  No, he singles out entire groups of people with no regard for what their individual actions say about themselves.
I have never been against Islam, but Islam has been against us.

So how do we build brotherhood between all peoples?
I wish to see us unite and foil the devil's plans.


I believe we can only do it with Love.  With Love comes trust.  God tells us that without the return of His Son it will not be accomplished.   Sadly I can see why this would have to be true.  Only God can overcome the forces of evil in this world.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace

Muhammad believes that people can accomplish this.  I believe this is the deceit of the devil.  It is the way he leads us into error.

I am interested in seeking understanding and peace between all of God's creation.
Smile Heart
Heart
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2012 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by iec786


You need to relax,why are you so tired what job are you into?



I see that I overlooked this...
I have health issues that keep me tired.  I used to handle Central America accounts for DOLE Pineapple company.  I currently do not work.  Thus the freedom to get closer to my God and to learn more about others. Smile
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2012 at 5:46pm
Caringheart,
nice try but my point is all I wanted to make. That Jesus did not come to free anyone from the law mentioned in the OT, according to those verses I posted.
Also the love thingy y'all preach dos not make sense as nothing has changed as far as what peopel do. They still disobey God, will God not punish them for their willfull trespasses out of love? If we look at the scripture this love thngy that y'all preach does not seem to be real. Don't take me wrong, we Muslims believe God loves us and will show His Mercy love and forgiveness on those who do not deny Him and do not engage in willfull disobdiences.

Matthew 18:8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. "

Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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bunter
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2012 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
nice try but my point is all I wanted to make. That Jesus did not come to free anyone from the law mentioned in the OT, according to those verses I posted.

Also the love thingy y'all preach dos not make sense as nothing has changed as far as what peopel do. They still disobey God, will God not punish them for their willfull trespasses out of love? If we look at the scripture this love thngy that y'all preach does not seem to be real. Don't take me wrong, we Muslims believe God loves us and will show His Mercy love and forgiveness on those who do not deny Him and do not engage in willfull disobdiences.


Matthew 18:8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.


The Bible teaches that Jesus came to free us from sin, the law is not the problem it is sin. One must ask why would God do that since we are all deserving of punishment? Can you not see that if God is just he cannot ignore sin, brush it under the carpet. If he is to redeem us he has to do it so that his justice is satisfied.

Edited by bunter - 17 July 2012 at 12:06pm
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2012 at 4:08pm
bunter,
yes, God is Just, Also God is Merciful, and Forgiving. How God can be both? For us hard to figure that out because we don't have the knowledge of the unseen, for God not so.  God knows All, what we do open or secretly, what we intend or think.
God Almighty says, that none will be done injustice. Even the tinniest good or the tinniest bad does not escape His knowledge.
Absolute Justice without Forgviness is for all those, who deny Him and His power and authority, cover up the truth when it is manifest to them and are disobedient to Him. 
His Mercy and Forgiveness is for those who acknowledge and serve their maker. They humble themselves in front of their Creator, acknowleging their mistakes, and asking His forgiveness and guidance. They serve Him with a heart that is in constant awareness that God is watching and thus they mend their actions according to His Will.
 
The verse (Matt18:8) is clearly saying  that if you sin you must pay its punishment here if you want to come clean in the hereafter. If you try to escape the punishment for a sin you did, you will not escape absolute Justice by God.  So for example, if one steals or kills and somhow escapes the law and justice and end up living without paying for that crime God will do the jutice and punish that person in this life and for sure in the hereafter. Jesus is quoted to have warned  that if you want to enter Paradise and should you commit a crime, it is better for you to get its punishment here in this world, pay for your sins here rather escaping because if you do not, your whole body will suffer the consequesnces in the hereafter.
Also the point made in response to those, who say that Jesus paid with his blood for their sins. The above quote tells us othwise. He is very clear to preach that if your hand commits a sin, pay for that sin here by its just punishment or you will pay for it dearly later which goes against the concept that Jesus already has paid for the sins of the world, according to the same Bible.
And that was not even the point. The point was that there are some who say that some of those laws of the OT, that seem too crude for a Christian (or even a Jew) to follow were abolished with the coming of Jesus. They say that Jesus freed us from those laws. Not so said Jesus according to the Bible itself.
And last but not least all of this go back to the following verse from the OT brother iec786 posted: APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate), neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him: "But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first
upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9
 
There are many Christians who wish that verses like this disappear, but they are there until someone like King James come along and orders a rewriting or new version?
Hasan
 


Edited by honeto - 18 July 2012 at 4:40pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2012 at 10:14am
Originally posted by honeto

yes, God is Just, Also God is Merciful, and Forgiving. How God can be both? For us hard to figure that out because we don't have the knowledge of the unseen, for God not so.  God knows All, what we do open or secretly, what we intend or think. God Almighty says, that none will be done injustice. Even the tinniest good or the tinniest bad does not escape His knowledge. Absolute Justice without Forgviness is for all those, who deny Him and His power and

I wonder what you think justice is? If I deliberately kill your brother and later sincerely repent, say I'm sorry will that be enough? You will forgive me and I can go free? Also, here notice that your brother is still dead.

I am not sure I like your god as he only seems to care about those who honour him - that's easy, if I only have to like people who like me, there is no effort need and no sacrifice. But Jesus says love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you. When Jesus walked the earth he did not hang out with the religious people he sought our those who were considered bad in order to redeem them and bring them into a right relationship with God. None of us are good enough, the very best we can do falls short and so we need redemption.

You are mistaken over Matthew 18:8. We Jesus speaks of cutting off a hand or foot he is not talking about punishment and he is not speaking literally, to take the verse as an instruction would be plain st**id. What Jesus is saying is that sin is such a serious and hateful thing we must avoid it at all costs.

What the Bible teaches is that Jesus suffered for our sins to make atonement, there is and was nothing we could do to make us right with God. If you think you are good enough for God or think you can make yourself good enough then you are mistaken and a good look at yourself will show just how wicked and deceitful are selfish you really are - just like the test of us.

There are many laws in the OT But many are no longer relevant - for example there is a law about someone with a skin desease having to show themselves to a priest if they get better for confirmation. Well no one in their right mind would think that we are supposed to take that literally for all time - no, there is a principle here and that is how we treat that law.

Finally, King James commissioned a Bibke translation and assembled the best scholars he could find and they used the best manuscripts then available - it is total nonsense to suggest the King decided what was in and what was out.

Of course there are things in the Bible that are uncomfortable to read, they are supposed to be uncomfortable because they refer to sin and wrong doing. Do you rejoice and praise Allah when you read in the Quran that molten brass will be poured on people in hell?

Edited by bunter - 19 July 2012 at 10:16am
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2012 at 4:25pm
bunter,
you are asking me a question, only God can answer because as I said before He has knowledge of things that you and I don't.
As far as honoring God, as His creations that will be the most rightful thing to do.
"Jesus says love your enemies" Ya'll have to provide me one living example of that person who can practice that teaching ya'll use so frequently but none cannot live by.

As far as none of us is good? Yes and no, only God knows since only God has full knowledge about all.
By the way If I remember from the Bible correctly, wasn't it Jesus himself who said that " why call me good , only God is good". While you are told that he was good sinless and god?
When we knowingly cover up the truth then we close the way of Forgiveness of God. God is forgiving, and those who follow the truth manifest to them and do not cover up the truth with falsehood will find forgiveness and their good deeds multiplied and God pleased with them. And if God is please with one, does that need anything else, God All powerful grant that person Paradise. Can anyone stop that when God is incharge?
One person will not pay for the other, nor one can save the other, or pay ransom through killing, blood, gold, or anything. if God were to forgive anyone, is there any that can stop Him or challenge? No none.
About Matt 18:8, you blame me for taking literally. But you don not see doing that same st**id thing when saying he is son of God because he said so. So it is OK for you to choose when it suits your point to use literally or otherwise try to find hidden meanings!
About OT laws, I only showed you the contradiction that some say Jesus came to free them from old laws, while the book you follow says he did not. In fact I quoted the verse where he says, I came to fulfill the law to the tinniest piece.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2012 at 7:32am
Originally posted by honeto

you are asking me a question, only God can answer because as I said before He has knowledge of things that you and I don't. As far as honoring God, as His creations that will be the most rightful thing to do. "Jesus says love your enemies" Ya'll have to provide me one living example of that person who can practice that teaching ya'll use so frequently but none cannot live by.

What would your teaching be instead "hate your enemies"? But an example might be the Muslim father in Manchester who when his three sons were murdered in riots he did not cry out for vengeance but asked for peace. Jesus himself is an example for he said at his crucifixion, "father forgive them..."

When we knowingly cover up the truth then we close the way of Forgiveness of God. God is forgiving, and those who follow the truth manifest to them and do not cover up the truth with falsehood will find forgiveness and their good deeds multiplied and God pleased with them. And if God is please with one, does that need anything else, God All powerful grant that person Paradise. Can anyone stop that when God is incharge?

Is God only 'in chage' sometimes then? But we all cover up the truth, we all sin in that way and that is why we need God for it is beyond our power to earn forgiveness. I have no idea why you find the idea of someone else paying - in Islam it is well understood concept and surely it is true that when wrong is done there are always those who suffer.

About Matt 18:8, you blame me for taking literally. But you don not see doing that same thing when saying he is son of God because he said so. So it is OK for you to choose when it suits your point to use literally or otherwise try to find hidden meanings!

So what are we to do, take everything literally? The idea that we should do that is so absurd as to be unthinkable. Indeed, Averroes, one of your own great scholars proposed a rule or you can say method of looking at a text to decide if it was to be taken literally or not - I guess you have never thought about it or perhaps you take everything in Islam literally?

About OT laws, I only showed you the contradiction that some say Jesus came to free them from old laws, while the book you follow says he did not. In fact I quoted the verse where he says,  I came to fulfill the law to the tinniest piece.

You have your opinion that is all. Jesus said the whole law is summed up by saying love the Lord your God with all you heart and soul and mind and love your neighbour as yourself - so if one does these two then the law is fulfilled in every part or do you find such a command of no value?
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