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Interfaith Dialogue
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2012 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by Nausheen



Hello Nausheen,
I must keep my reply brief, but these are the things I felt the need to respond to.
"ie, the one who knows the reality of God and His messengers, but does not accept it. "
By this definition we are all unbelievers...
None of us really knows the reality of God...
those who accept what they know, do it by faith alone... i.e., believers
Everyone's reality is different.
"By this definition, anyone who rejects the truth of God is a kafir - a disbeliever."
By this definition anyone who does not accept my truth is an unbeliever.  Anyone who does not accept your truth is an unbeliever.  That makes us all unbelievers.
You pointed out that your truth is not my truth.  So if we each judge by our own truth we have no peace.  This is why we are the not judge... One who is higher than us is the judge... the One who created it all is the only one qualified to judge what is truth.

"On a side note: we might not be discussing apostacy in islam when we discuss a state ruling implemented in a certain case from an islamic state - this is because of the poor state of affairs sadly practiced in several case in our islamic world.
Thus it is rational to ask you at this point to research the real ruling of a particular case in Islam to judge islam with it. Judging islam by parameters which appear to represent it may not always be its true markers."

I would like to see this same logic applied by the Islamic world to other societies which they are quick to condemn.
"Rest assured there s no hidden agenda here on islamicity. Im coming here since past 10 years. I moderated the forums during the worst times in history ... and there was nothing hidden even then, accept that we did not want members to become verbally barbaric with each other. "
I'm sorry to be argumentative on this one subject, but there is no good reason why my posts are being deleted or not posted, and I have been given no reason.  So I do not rest assured in your assurance, though I do appreciate your attempt.
"america has penetrated in many muslims countries and has killed many muslims - this has been going on since the iran-iraq war, followed by the Qowait war, followed by the afghan war and so on."
This is the argument I get from all Muslims.  The point is #1. America is not there because they want to be there.  They are there because of acts of war which one way or the other they have been drawn into.  Right now people are expressing outrage because the U.S. has not come to the aid of Syria.  As I like to point out as certain quote...excusing the strong language it is a quote... "Damned if you do, damned if you don't".  #2.  They are not there with the intent or purpose of killing Muslims.  They are there because the people there are human beings in trouble... period. There is death on both sides.  It is a war situation.
Therefore,
"This is the real state of affairs of the world we live in today."
This is your truest statement.

You also overlook the ethnic cleansing going on against Christians in Muslim countries in Africa and other places.
If there is any persecution going on in the world... killing on the basis of religion only... it is against the Christians and the Jews.
I am not saying that Muslims have not also been persecuted in the past and I would never minimize that fact.  What I am saying is, it is not good to repeat the mistakes of the past but rather learn from them... like you say from your Qur'an... it is not the good thing to return an evil for an evil.
"the western powers are proven real threats to peace and properity of muslim nations. - this the case is when they have not even got the chance to become a government in those countries. "
I can not agree with this statement.  The world gets drawn into the conflicts in the middle east due to world economy.  It is not just the west.  Russia, China, Japan... all the world are involved one way or the other.   Other countries rely on the oil from the mid-east... the mid-east derives its income from the world purchase of its oil.  The unrest in the middle east has always been there.  Unrest comes from leaders who are power hungry, with an eye toward themselves, and an eye toward the world, instead of toward its own people.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.


Peace and blessing upon the world
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2012 at 8:11pm
Nausheen,
"At times I might come out as strong in words, but its not my intention to be come rude."
The same with me, it is never my intention to come across as rude.  I hold no animosity when I speak.  Only seek understanding and growth for all.

Smile
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2012 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by Caringheart



Muhammad says the old testament(the Torah) has been corrupted
If that is what you believe, then how do you know this is not one of the corrupted scriptures?  Has man inserted his own ideas, his own interpretations of God's will?  or has God preserved His Word?

 
This comment isn't for me, but wanted to comment on this one portions.
 
We do not believe the torah or old testment can be referred to any more, because we believe it has been corrupted by human intervention.
However it was my impression that for you it still holds true.  Is it not the case?
 
Please tell me, do christians beleive the torah has been corrupted?
 
If so, then it cannot be used as a testimony for you. However if you believe it to be true then in my opinion you should accept its truth even if it is being presented to you by a muslim.
 
In the times of muhammad sallallahu alaihe wasallam, he used to judge between the jews (who brought their disputes for him for resolution), according to the torah. He did not use the Quran to resolve their disputes.
 


Hi Nausheen,
I always welcome any comment.  All these things make me think.  Smile

Regarding this;

I can not speak for all those who call themselves Christian, and what I say does not speak for Christians.  I can only share what I believe.  We are all individuals in our thinking.

I say this... all things have the potential to be corrupted by man.  This does not mean that they are.  What I can say is this, I have read the scriptures and they speak to me of Truth.  Never in my life have I been able to memorize anything in all my school years but when I began to read and study my Bible I found that these words came to live in me just as the Bible tells me... the Bible tells me that God's word is "alive and active" and He[the Word] will come to live in you.  It tells me to renew my mind daily with the Word of God, meaning to keep Him alive in me, and my life will be transformed.  I have seen this to be true.  His words live in me without even trying to memorize.  I have tested them... severely... may God forgive me, and I believe He does because it is God Himself who tells us that we are to discern the Truth... to be watchful.  I have studied Muhammad and his word... and I am left with conflicted thoughts, which I do not think would be allowed to be posted here.  I wish they would because I would welcome feedback.
"you should accept its truth even if it is being presented to you by a muslim."
This I want you to understand too.  I am not rejecting or accepting in this case, and you are correct it wouldn't matter who presented it to me.  I was pointing out different scenarios of what the truth may be.  I only wish to inspire deeper thinking into these matters.

I guess I was challenging him to think about whether or not he accepted that the Torah was corrupted, and if so, how do we know what parts.
I also pointed out that he missed the qualifying statement in the matter... that it is; if they say, "let us go and serve other gods" and that we all... Jews, Christians and Muslims say we serve the God of Abraham.  This makes us the same.
"In the times of muhammad sallallahu alaihe wasallam, he used to judge between the jews (who brought their disputes for him for resolution), according to the torah. He did not use the Quran to resolve their disputes."
I appreciate the beauty of this statement but how could Muhammad, who could not read, use the Torah to judge conflicts between Jews?

(and have we gone off topic... Wink.  I myself do not care, because to me it is all good, and all part of our conversation which to me is good.  Smile)
Salaam.


Blessings of God to all the world
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iec786
 
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2012 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by iec786

APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),
neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him:
"But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first
upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9
If they say, "let us go and serve other gods" (Deuteronomy 13:6)but according to Muhammad himself, Jews and Christians and Muslims serve the same God... the God of Abraham.  So do or do not Muslims serve the God of Abraham? Also, did you read what I shared in my response to Nausheen...this is a teaching that comes from the old testamentMuhammad says the old testament(the Torah) has been corruptedIf that is what you believe, then how do you know this is not one of the corrupted scriptures?  Has man inserted his own ideas, his own interpretations of God's will?  or has God preserved His Word?Then there's this;When God sent Jesus He was "doing a new thing"<span id="en-NIV-18525" ="text Isa-43-19"><sup ="versenum">19 See, I am doing a new thing! </span><span ="indent-1"><span ="indent-1-breaks">    </span><span ="text Isa-43-19">Now it springs up; do you not perceive it?I know you can find ways to dispute these things or apply them to Muhammad and his word.  I am just sharing what my view is.This is what I believe to be true;  I believe Jesus brought a kinder, gentler message.  I believe the God of the old testament(the Torah, the Jewish tradition) was a God who attempted to gain the love of His people by showing His displeasure and His anger... by using harsh discipline to try to bring about the good of His people.  This did not ever work for long.(Something Muslims would do well to consider... a look and a study of history and what has worked at what does not)  Only Love overcomes.  I believe God chose then to come to us in a new way, by coming to us in the flesh, in the form of a Son, His created Son... a human man whom the people could relate to as one who faced all the same temptations that the flesh brings... to bring the message of a God who loves us, rather than simply an angry God... a God to be feared.  He comes to enlighten us to see that fear of God is really awe of God and what He can do, and that God desires only our obedience for our own good, because He loves us.  It is not the fear that simple human minds had heretofore understood.</span></span>Jesus came to bring a new message, to turn our hearts.  <span ="indent-1"><span ="text Isa-43-19">Jesus was the pure Love, that is God, in the flesh.</span></span>Unfortunately, Muhammad brings back the old teaching... the old way.Through error?  Through corruption by other men to his word?  or through guidance of a wrong spirit?This is how I see it. Salaammay peace come to all through the Creator who made us all.



Hi Caringheart,
You see this is the problem.You as a Christian tell us that we are not loving and we only want go crazy,but you do not quote the scripture when you quote.This is a verse from the old Testament.
APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),
neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him:
"But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first
upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9

Now this is a quote from the new Testament.

"THE PRINCE OF PEACE," boasts that he had not come to bring
peace on earth but fire and division!
   "I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish that it were
ALREADY KINDLED.
"Do you supposed that I came to bring peace to the world?
No, not peace BUT DIVISION." LUKE 12:49 and 51


HATE AS FOUNDATION OF HIS (JESUS') FAITH:
   "If any man come to me, and HATE NOT his father, and
mother, and wife, and children . . . HE CANNOT be my
disciple." LUKE 14:26

English Standard Version (©2001)
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”Luke 19:27
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2012 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by iec786

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by iec786

APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),
neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him:
"But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first
upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9
If they say, "let us go and serve other gods" (Deuteronomy 13:6)but according to Muhammad himself, Jews and Christians and Muslims serve the same God... the God of Abraham.  So do or do not Muslims serve the God of Abraham? Also, did you read what I shared in my response to Nausheen...this is a teaching that comes from the old testamentMuhammad says the old testament(the Torah) has been corruptedIf that is what you believe, then how do you know this is not one of the corrupted scriptures?  Has man inserted his own ideas, his own interpretations of God's will?  or has God preserved His Word?Then there's this;When God sent Jesus He was "doing a new thing"<span id="en-NIV-18525" ="text Isa-43-19"><sup ="versenum">19 See, I am doing a new thing! </span><span ="indent-1"><span ="indent-1-breaks">    </span><span ="text Isa-43-19">Now it springs up; do you not perceive it?I know you can find ways to dispute these things or apply them to Muhammad and his word.  I am just sharing what my view is.This is what I believe to be true;  I believe Jesus brought a kinder, gentler message.  I believe the God of the old testament(the Torah, the Jewish tradition) was a God who attempted to gain the love of His people by showing His displeasure and His anger... by using harsh discipline to try to bring about the good of His people.  This did not ever work for long.(Something Muslims would do well to consider... a look and a study of history and what has worked at what does not)  Only Love overcomes.  I believe God chose then to come to us in a new way, by coming to us in the flesh, in the form of a Son, His created Son... a human man whom the people could relate to as one who faced all the same temptations that the flesh brings... to bring the message of a God who loves us, rather than simply an angry God... a God to be feared.  He comes to enlighten us to see that fear of God is really awe of God and what He can do, and that God desires only our obedience for our own good, because He loves us.  It is not the fear that simple human minds had heretofore understood.</span></span>Jesus came to bring a new message, to turn our hearts.  <span ="indent-1"><span ="text Isa-43-19">Jesus was the pure Love, that is God, in the flesh.</span></span>Unfortunately, Muhammad brings back the old teaching... the old way.Through error?  Through corruption by other men to his word?  or through guidance of a wrong spirit?This is how I see it. Salaammay peace come to all through the Creator who made us all.



Hi Caringheart,
You see this is the problem.You as a Christian tell us that we are not loving and we only want go crazy,but you do not quote the scripture when you quote.This is a verse from the old Testament.
APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),
neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him:
"But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first
upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9

Now this is a quote from the new Testament.

"THE PRINCE OF PEACE," boasts that he had not come to bring
peace on earth but fire and division!
   "I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish that it were
ALREADY KINDLED.
"Do you supposed that I came to bring peace to the world?
No, not peace BUT DIVISION." LUKE 12:49 and 51


HATE AS FOUNDATION OF HIS (JESUS') FAITH:
   "If any man come to me, and HATE NOT his father, and
mother, and wife, and children . . . HE CANNOT be my
disciple." LUKE 14:26

English Standard Version (©2001)
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”Luke 19:27


Hello iec,

I have taken my time to come back to this after I'd had some time to spend with my God, and when I am not so tired so that I can give you a proper response.  Smile
Upon revisiting your response I want to address this though;
"You as a Christian tell us that we are not loving and we only want go crazy..."
I don't say any such thing.  I treat each person as an individual, and that is why I am involving myself in discussions, so that I can reach proper conclusions based on the conversations that I am able to have.

I will take each of the scriptures that you quote individually;
APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),
neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him:
"But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first
upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9

This is an old testament teaching and I believe Jesus was sent because God was 'doing a new thing'.  "Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?" - from Isaiah
[Edit:  and now I see I already answered this in my first response.  Did you read what I wrote?]
"THE PRINCE OF PEACE," boasts that he had not come to bring
peace on earth but fire and division!
   "I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish that it were
ALREADY KINDLED.
"Do you supposed that I came to bring peace to the world?
No, not peace BUT DIVISION." LUKE 12:49 and 51
This is an oft' misunderstood quote.  In saying this Jesus is simply pointing out that by His coming the 'sheep' and the 'goats' would be divided... that those who belong to Him(to God) would be separated from those who do not.(Matthew 25:31-46, the words of Jesus, it is good to read them all if you can)  [Don't know how much I like being compared to sheep and goats.  lol]
You can not love God and the world, you belong to one or the other, for 'love of one is enmity with the other'.  If you love God you will hate the world, and if you love the world you will hate God.  'Man can not serve two masters'.

This is the division and the fire of which Jesus speaks.

HATE AS FOUNDATION OF HIS (JESUS') FAITH:
   "If any man come to me, and HATE NOT his father, and
mother, and wife, and children . . . HE CANNOT be my
disciple." LUKE 14:26
Again, just like the Qur'an, you must be able to understand what is written.
Hate is not the foundation of Jesus faith... Love is... the Love of Him(Love of God) and His sacrifice for us.
This passage speaks only to the fact that no one should take a higher place in the heart than God.
Here, I believe there may be some error in translating the greek word into the word hate.  I do not believe it means hate in the sense that we would mean it.  Put it this way... I have learned no hate from the teaching of Jesus or from His life, or the great sacrifice He made for me.

But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”Luke 19:27
Now this, yes.  I recently read this passage myself and I admit it is a passage that I struggle with.  It sounds too much like an old testament teaching seeped into the new testament teaching.  As I have often said... the Word of God was still written down by fallible man.  This is why we must seek to discern Truth in all things.  We must seek after God and His guidance.  What does He speak to our hearts.
Salaam
Heart
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2012 at 11:38pm



[/QUOTE]Hello iec,I have taken my time to come back to this after I'd had some time to spend with my God, and when I am not so tired so that I can give you a proper response.You need to relax,why are you so tired what job are you into?  [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />Upon revisiting your response I want to address this though;
"You as a Christian tell us that we are not loving and we only want go crazy..."
I don't say any such thing.  I treat each person as an individual, and that is why I am involving myself in discussions, so that I can reach proper conclusions based on the conversations that I am able to have.I will take each of the scriptures that you quote individually;
APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him:"But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be firstupon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9
This is an old testament teaching and I believe Jesus was sent because God was 'doing a new thing'.  "Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?" - from Isaiah[Edit:  and now I see I already answered this in my first response.I would like to put biblical words to this.New Living Translation (©2007)
"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
  Did you read what I wrote?]
"THE PRINCE OF PEACE," boasts that he had not come to bringpeace on earth but fire and division!   "I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish that it wereALREADY KINDLED."Do you supposed that I came to bring peace to the world?No, not peace BUT DIVISION." LUKE 12:49 and 51
This is an oft' misunderstood quote.  In saying this Jesus is simply pointing out that by His coming the 'sheep' and the 'goats' would be divided... that those who belong to Him(to God) would be separated from those who do not.(Matthew 25:31-46, the words of Jesus, it is good to read them all if you can)  [Don't know how much I like being compared to sheep and goats.  lol]me neither lol You can not love God and the world, you belong to one or the other, for 'love of one is enmity with the other'.  If you love God you will hate the world, and if you love the world you will hate God.  'Man can not serve two masters'.This is the division and the fire of which Jesus speaks.dont you think that was a bit to harsh?
HATE AS FOUNDATION OF HIS (JESUS') FAITH:   "If any man come to me, and HATE NOT his father, andmother, and wife, and children . . . HE CANNOT be mydisciple." LUKE 14:26
Again, just like the Qur'an, you must be able to understand what is written.Hate is not the foundation of Jesus faith... Love is... the Love of Him(Love of God) and His sacrifice for us.This passage speaks only to the fact that no one should take a higher place in the heart than God.Here, I believe there may be some error in translating the greek word into the word hate.  I do not believe it means hate in the sense that we would mean it.  Put it this way... I have learned no hate from the teaching of Jesus or from His life, or the great sacrifice He made for me.
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”Luke 19:27
Now this, yes.  I recently read this passage myself and I admit it is a passage that I struggle with.This is not the words of Jesus and that is the problem we are having.  It sounds too much like an old testament teaching seeped into the new testament teaching.  As I have often said... the Word of God was still written down by fallible man.  This is why we must seek to discern Truth in all things.  We must seek after God and His guidance.  What does He speak to our hearts.now my sister this is why i always say if you have the Old testament and you have a New testament why not the final Testament Al-Quraan the last Testament.Peace be unto you.


Salaam[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />[/QUOTE]
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 14 July 2012 at 4:19pm
Caringheart,
not so easy, you must face the reality of what is there in the OT claimed to be part of a Christian's holy book, "the Bible". I understand the dilemma a Christian must go through when dealing with the contents of the OT that haunt a thoughtful Christian.
The theory that "Jesus came to do away from old laws" and all those teachings that somehow go against the lovey dovey teachings of Jesus no longer apply to practice falls apart when we look just a couple of clear verses associated with Jesus:
Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Do we need anything clearer than this to tell us that each and everything written down as law in the OT must be fulfilled?
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 14 July 2012 at 4:23pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 14 July 2012 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
not so easy, you must face the reality of what is there in the OT claimed to be part of a Christian's holy book, "the Bible". I understand the dilemma a Christian must go through when dealing with the contents of the OT that haunt a thoughtful Christian.
The theory that "Jesus came to do away from old laws" and all those teachings that somehow go against the lovey dovey teachings of Jesus no longer apply to practice falls apart when we look just a couple of clear verses associated with Jesus:
Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Do we need anything clearer than this to tell us that each and everything written down as law in the OT must be fulfilled?
Hasan


Greetings Hasan,

Just as an aside, this calls to mind a post that I happened upon the other night, titled something like; 'Did God create man, or did man create God?', putting forth the idea that it is more likely that man created God. 
I may tend to agree. 
While for me, there is no denial of God, I can also see where it is most entirely likely that man creates God in his own image, rather than the other way around. 
I think God is that compass that we have within us to live a certain way, and those that lack that compass, lack God.  But the "Word of God", may be just man putting into words what his own compass is telling him.

Anyway, regarding the scriptures of Jesus.  Again, I see that it is in the understanding, and the misunderstanding.
"See I am doing a new thing"  refers to God leading us in a new way... not with fear, but with Love... with His Son.
Correct Jesus did not do away with the old law but He did come to show us a new way to God... through Love rather than fear... to reach each by his heart, not through threat of punishment, but through the realization that consequences are the result of sin, and no one escapes from the judgement of God.   That it is love of God and understanding His great Love for us, that leads into obedience to God.
The two scriptures refer to different things.
I do see where you might think the two conflict.  I do not see the conflict.  One is in the judgement of man to punish, and the other puts judgement in the hands of God alone.
I find Jesus prescription to be the correct one.
Heart
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