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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2012 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

As I'm sure you know, the Quran says in many places that it is complete, perfect and fully detailed. If it doesn't mention precisely how to drink water or how to pray, then according to Allah it doesn't matter exactly how you drink water or how you pray. If Muhammad said otherwise, then Muhammad was giving instruction to his companions and followers in his own time and place. Those instructions were never intended to be preserved for all time, i.e. never intended as a permanent part of Islam.

Honestly, Nausheen, do you think Allah ran out of words, or forgot to include things in the Quran? Or was He lying when He said the Quran was complete?

Ron,
the Quran and the Prophet has separate roles in my understanding. The Quran is complete and the role of the Prophet is to explain, live, and to put the words of the Quran in practice. It is often said that the Prophet (pbuh) was a living Quran.
Ron, if you have been to school, you must remember that it was your teacher who opened up those lessons or maths equations that did not make any sense to you at first. Once the teacher explained to you the formula or gave you that added information it all made sense and became easy to follow through.
The prophet was not just the messenger but also a teacher. When it is said to offer your Salat five times of day, Quran is not incomplete to not draw the specifics rather that was the job of the teacher, the prophet who was instructed to how to do it and then teach how it is done properly. Thus the prophet lived and explained each aspect of life that was important.
You never questioned, why do you need or have to listen to the Chemistry teacher or Maths teacher to explain to you those text books?
Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) came as the last prophet to mankind and through him came the Quran as the last message for mankind that means that the Quran and his example is valid until the world ends.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 17 September 2012 at 12:55pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2012 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by honeto

Bunter, I am not sure if you understand, what it means to obey the prophet and obey God. Prophets and apostles brought word of God that had to be obeyed. Prophets never claimed to be God, nor to be worshiped like God. So I am puzzled at your lack of differentiation of the two.


Just as we are puzzled by your lack of differentiation. You obey Muhammad, just as you would obey Allah. You treat every authentic word and action of Muhammad as permanent doctrine, just as you do with Allah. You consider it sacrilege to insult Muhammad, just as you would Allah. You attribute to Muhammad qualities of wisdom, virtue, stamina, etc., which if not equal to Allah are certainly beyond those of mortals. So aside from simply declaring that Muhammad is not a partner of Allah, in what practical sense do you believe or behave any differently than if he were?


Muslims, through their prophet are told to not worship anything or anyone other than God. Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) was a living example of that command as all prophets were to live an example of what was preached through them, and thus not worshiping anything or anyone other than God by Muslims is following the example of their prophet. Where is blasphemy there, can you point out?


The blasphemy is in writing down the Hadith of the prophet, despite having been specifically told not to do so, and in treating those sayings as if they had the same authority as Allah's words in the Quran. The Hadith were specific guidance for a specific people and a specific time. They were never meant to be preserved forever.



Ron,
sorry to say but you are absolutely wrong about those perceptions about me.

You blame that I obey Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as I obey God Almighty. Wrong, I do not. I obey God Almighty as God Almighty and I obey prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as prophet Mohammed (pbuh). And I obey my mother as my mother. So there is a distinction.
I do not equate the words of the Quran as the words of the Hadith. The Quran is directly from God Almighty, while the Hadiths are words of men and must be verified.
I love God Almighty as God Almighty, and I love the Prophet as the Prophet.
I certainly believe that it was for his great qualities that Mohammed (pbuh) was chosen to be a teacher, to be a guide, to be a prophet to mankind. Is he equal to God, no Muslim will commit such blasphemy, there is none that equals God. Do I respect and love him more than any other human, you bet, followed by all the other prophets and then my love ones.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 17 September 2012 at 1:22pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2012 at 5:46pm

Originally posted by honeto


Ron, if you have been to school, you must remember that it was your teacher who opened up those lessons or maths equations that did not make any sense to you at first. Once the teacher explained to you the formula or gave you that added information it all made sense and became easy to follow through.

When I was in elementary school, by teacher taught me an excellent way to multiply two numbers, using a pencil-and-paper technique called long multiplication.  But she never claimed it was the only way, or even necessarily the best way.  Indeed, the ancient Egyptians used a technique now called duplation and mediation, which was an excellent method for those who only rarely need to multiply large numbers and don't want to memorize multiplication tables.

Later in high school, I was taught another excellent method using logarithmic tables, for times when speed was more important than accuracy.  Then along came the calculator, and then the computer, both of which have obvious advantages.

I thank my teacher for teaching me long multiplication, which served its purpose for many years; but I'm sure she would be horrified to think that I continued to use that technique fifty years later, simply out of a misguided respect for her.

If Muhammad had done multiplication, most likely he would have used duplation and mediation.  Think about it. Smile

The prophet was not just the messenger but also a teacher. When it is said to offer your Salat five times of day, Quran is not incomplete to not draw the specifics rather that was the job of the teacher, the prophet who was instructed to how to do it and then teach how it is done properly. Thus the prophet lived and explained each aspect of life that was important.

If the specifics are essential to Islam, and they are omitted from the Quran, then the Quran is not a complete statement of Islam.  Why is that so hard for you to accept that God doesn't care about trivial details?  Frankly, I think Allah would be bored to stupefaction by now with the same prayers mindlessly repeated over and over and over again for a thousand years.  Why not give Him a break? Wink

You never questioned, why do you need or have to listen to the Chemistry teacher or Maths teacher to explain to you those text books?

I didn't.  In fact I was way ahead of my math teacher for much of the high school curriculum (yeah, I was one of those Geek), and I learned most of it just by reading the text.  But if necessary I could have had my parents explain it, or one of my friends, or found something in the library.  My teachers were (mostly) good, but they weren't the only sources of explanation.

Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) came as the last prophet to mankind and through him came the Quran as the last message for mankind that means that the Quran and his example is valid until the world ends.

Does it say that in the Quran, or did you make that up?



Edited by Ron Webb - 17 September 2012 at 5:55pm
Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2012 at 5:53pm

Originally posted by honeto

You blame that I obey Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as I obey God Almighty. Wrong, I do not. I obey God Almighty as God Almighty and I obey prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as prophet Mohammed (pbuh). And I obey my mother as my mother. So there is a distinction.

Saying it does not make it so.  In practical terms, what is the distinction?  The only clear difference I can see is that Muslims normally don't directly address Muhammad in their prayers, but it seems that even that isn't always the case.

Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2012 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by honeto

You blame that I obey Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as I obey God Almighty. Wrong, I do not. I obey God Almighty as God Almighty and I obey prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as prophet Mohammed (pbuh). And I obey my mother as my mother. So there is a distinction.


But the Quran does not say does it 'obey Allah and your mother'?
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 19 September 2012 at 11:22am
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by honeto

You blame that I obey Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as I obey God Almighty. Wrong, I do not. I obey God Almighty as God Almighty and I obey prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as prophet Mohammed (pbuh). And I obey my mother as my mother. So there is a distinction.


But the Quran does not say does it 'obey Allah and your mother'?


bunter,
your argument is silly, losing and unreal. In various levels we all obey various entities. As law abiding citizens we obey the law of our countries and it protects us. We obey our parents and elders. Don't tell me that you never obeyed your mother or your father. It is natural, Allah tells us in the Quran that only time we should not obey them is if they ask us to worship anyone other than God.
31:15 (Y. Ali) "But if they (your parents) strive to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), and follow the way of those who turn to me (in love): in the end the return of you all is to Me, and I will tell you the truth (and meaning) of all that ye did."

And it seems that you missed this verse in your own book that you believe to be true, at least believe it. It talks about obeying to your parents and just look at the punishment in it for disobeying:
Deut.21:18 "If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard. 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."

And Ron,
I am not going to argue with you on such a simple matter as role of a teacher. Teachers would not be needed if we all could learn only from the books alone. Everyone in sound mind will not think of learning without teachers. In today's economy may be it's a good idea to eliminate teachers but only good for the economy and not for the future. Teachers play an important role in a student's learning ability and that was my simple point. In matter of religion it matters even more because religion is more important to many of us then what we learn in school.
And see, for a man of belief like myself, I never feel over burdened like you when it comes to find the details of how our teacher, our prophet did certain things that are part of daily life. How did he fulfill his obligations to his maker and how did he fulfill his obligations toward others, simple as that. As in any trade, people follow an example of someone who once was a legend in that field, as a Muslim my only goal is to follow that example that was a guiding light and a living example of how a true believer should be. And for each time there was such an example and a teacher like Jesus, like Moses, like Abraham and so on, all servants of Allah. For our times it is Prophet Mohammed may Allah's Peace be upon them All.


Hasan

Edited by honeto - 19 September 2012 at 12:20pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 19 September 2012 at 8:26pm
I agree Hasan, teachers are very helpful, and no doubt Muhammad was an excellent teacher in his lifetime.  However, as I keep reminding Muslims, Muhammad (peace be upon him) is dead.  He can no longer be our teacher.  He can no longer answer questions or apply the Quran to our particular situation, which is what all good teachers do, and what sets them apart from the lifeless content of a textbook.
 
The hadith and sunnah are just words frozen on a page -- the functional equivalent of a second Quran.  But there can only be one Quran.  It is complete, and Allah left nothing out of it.  He said so.
Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 19 September 2012 at 11:21pm
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by honeto

You blame that I obey Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as I obey God Almighty. Wrong, I do not. I obey God Almighty as God Almighty and I obey prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as prophet Mohammed (pbuh). And I obey my mother as my mother. So there is a distinction.


But the Quran does not say does it 'obey Allah and your mother'?





The Quran has refrained from using the word Father or Mother or Son.If you look at the abuse of these words in the Bible where you have Mary construed as the Mother of God(sic) then you have Jesus as the Son of God(sic) then you have God as the father all these words have been done away with in the Quran.
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