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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Topic: Apostacy and few other issues
    Posted: 05 July 2012 at 7:27am
Bismillah
 
I began having a conversation with one of the board members on PM.
 
However both of us want it to go public. In this post am copying the conversation we've had so far.
 
On a side note: I cannot address the apostacy issue off hand, as I have not researched it in detail. If anyone knows the correct rulings - with appropriate references, please share.
 
For now, the following is the discussion:
 
Caringheart Wrote:
Greetings Nausheen
I appreciate your response.
I am going to reply in private message because I know what I will say will only be deleted, or I will be given warning.
I am actually a very sensitive person. Anyone who knows me would attest to that. I just don't take offense just because others disagree with my beliefs and because they show me things that are uncomfortable. If they show me a truth, like it or not, I have to acknowledge that truth. I have done that on these forums even.

But specifically I wanted to answer this

This is the problem I have with Islam
"Islam refuses to accept any truth but its own and at the threat of death."
You said:
This is not true. Not just that, this is a challenge. i have not read too many of your challenges, however, this one is an offensive challenge. If you had said : islam refuses any truth but its own - and full stop - I would have had no problem agreeing with you. However, the later part is not true, according to what I know of my religion. This not just a challenge to me, its an offensive challenge.
Ask me why? Because, you are telling me that my religion commands to kill anyone who does not pray, who drinks alcohol, who worships idols, who fornicate, who do XYZ ...
This is not true!! my religion does not do this. So, either you ask if Islam is like this or not, or you don't say say things which are not true to our belief with authority. Please. - Have this little bit of discretion and perhaps you can find friends amongst us.

You are right it is a challenge. It is an inconvenient truth.
Now the way you explained, I appreciate. This is what I am wanting to know. I want to know that the greater majority of Muslims do not agree with the order to kill those who are considered by Muslims to be unbelievers. I am not an unbeliever. I believe in One God, I do not bow down to idols, I do not drink, I do not believe in, or participate in, extra-marital relations... all the things you said. The only difference between us is that I am unconvinced of Muhammad as prophet of God.
As far as truth. I posted the truth. I posted the news reports out of Iran itself, that supported the truth that a man in Iran has been sentenced to execution because he converted from Islam to Christianity. Yet all Muslims want to say that this is not an order of Islam... to kill. Either they do not know, or they deny, or hide, the truth of Islam. My posts were deleted and that is upsetting to me because I think we all deserve to know the truth, Muslims, Christains, Jews, it does not matter... we all should know the truth... all must know the truth.
Now if Islam is like what it says in the Bible... to test all things for truth... if they are able to hold fast to that which is good(from Muhammad) and reject what is not good... then I have no problem with Islam. I love the Muslim's, what I call old-fashioned values... values that used to exist with members of the Christian church at one time... and for many still do. I know of many who dress modestly, do not drink, go to church, pray, lead a clean life... What I have a problem with Islam is, if they are going to judge me an unbeliever just because I do not believe all that they do. If I live as they live and I say my God guides me to live that way, I am no different than you. Muslims do not believe in Jesus and I accept that fact. A Muslim can join the Christian faith and leave it at any time. It is between them and God. Same with any other religion. You do not have to accept my truth and I do not condemn you for it when you are a person I can obviously see lives as God wants us all to live. But are Muslims able to do this? It is what I am seeking to find out. As it is said, the truth of God is in the fruit, and each must be seen as an individual who bears their own fruit, whether it is good or bad. Are Muslims able to do this or must they categorize people into groups.

I hope I have written clearly. I am tired but I really appreciate your time.
Wishing you blessings,
Caringheart

I really wish this could go up on the forum because I think all Muslims should know. I also would like clear picture of me to be presented which isn't possible if my posts are deleted and I am looking vilified.

Anyway, have a good day and thanks for making me laugh on your other post. :-)
 
My response to Caringheart:

Greetings Caringheart.


>>I appreciate your response.<<

Thank you.

I would like the discussions to go on boards so all can see we can talk congenially. Mind if I give it a try by posting this on the forum?


>>I am actually a very sensitive person. Anyone who knows me would attest to that. I just don't take offense just because others disagree with my beliefs and because they show me things that are uncomfortable. If they show me a truth, like it or not, I have to acknowledge that truth. I have done that on these forums even.<<

I think most of the balanced adults are like this. It’s good to hear that you are a rational person.

>>This is the problem I have with Islam
"Islam refuses to accept any truth but its own and at the threat of death."

You are right it is a challenge. It is an inconvenient truth.<<

There are capital punishments in Islam. Most non-muslims have problems with that, and I accept that they have a problem. If you look for answers sincerely am sure you’ll find them.

However I do not apologize for it. For me, these are laws of God. I have to accept them as they are.

For you this is not a Law of God, because Islam is not a true religion. Thus for you these are wrong, I understand and accept this. But, for a muslim the case is different, because of their belief system. You have to understand this. We have received this religion in form of revelation, thus we don’t believe in modifying/changing it according to trends, wishes, wills, etc.

On the same token, say for instance, Islam said: “no matter what humankind did, they should never be punished thru a dealth penalty”, in that case muslims would have argued with you tooth and nail for this belief as theirs.

Therefore, when you are arguing Islam is wrong, you are arguing a believe system – so, please try to be sensitive in how you frame your arguments, because belief is not like a scientific theory. Its about their God! Their whole existence revolves around it. People get hurt. When they get hurt, they either hurt back (which is terrible thing to do, islamically), or shut down. In either case, the discussion goes no where – your purpose on the forum is defeated.

A few scenarios to consider.

1. Capital punishments (Hadd) are executed only in an Islamic state.

2. Capital punishments are not a light matter – the law is strict in punishing, but its equally strict in verifying the allegations. Human life is not cheap in Islam. If one is not proven guilty, he is left alone.

Islamically a person commiting adultery should be stoned to death. _ this means 4 people should have seen the very act with their own eyes, they appear in front of the mufti and testify. They should be known as upright, honorable, pious people in order for their testimony to be accepted and the punishment pronounced.

In reality for four people to witness an act so private as that isn’t a very high probability. So, it’s the spirit of Hadd (capital punishment) that has a stronger message, than the Hadd itself. If is telling us how disliked and despised by God and His messenger is the sin. It is a strong deterring factor for muslims. Its telling us to not just avoid it, avoid situations that would lead to it.

Now, am in no way saying don’t worry about the hadd, since it is unlikely to be pronounced for all its conditions to be fulfilled is not a high probability. I m only saying study the details of why hadd is ordained in certain specific matters. You will know that when Islam is strict in anything its only for the benefit of humans. Im sure after you’ve researched the topic of hadd you will not dislike Islam as much as you would have at the beginning of it.

3. Apostasy is punished by death. Its no secret. If you want to be an apostate, leave dar-ul-haram (Islamic state) go take asylum somewhere else. If one is considering becoming a muslim, know that there is no turning back till he is in an Islamic state – this again entails the person declares himself a non-muslim – IN AN ISLAMIC STATE. If he hides this within himself, there is no way a hadd can be implemented on him.

>>Now the way you explained, I appreciate. This is what I am wanting to know. I want to know that the greater majority of Muslims do not agree with the order to kill those who are considered by Muslims to be unbelievers.<<

Not at all. Islam does not order us to kill anyone – accept in a battle. Killing non-believers left right center is nowhere stated in the religion. Im not sure what exactly you’re worried about.

>> I am not an unbeliever. I believe in One God, I do not bow down to idols, I do not drink, I do not believe in, or participate in, extra-marital relations... all the things you said. The only difference between us is that I am unconvinced of Muhammad as prophet of God.<<

You are a ‘Nasara’ according to the Quran. The Quran calls you ‘People of the Book’ – Ahle Kitab in Arabic.

You and I are like Jews and You. The Jews believe in God, don’t worship idols, follow a divine law, but do not believe Jesus (peace be upon him) to be a prophet of God. However the Christians do all what the Jews do, believe in the Torah as the word of God, Moses (peace be upon him) as the prophet of God and then proclaim the bible to be a revelation in a continuum after the torah.

The muslims believe in Abraham, David, Moses, Jesus (peace be upon them), Torah, Bible, scrolls of Abraham, Suff of David, and above this believe Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the final messenger, with a final message which is called Quran.

Just like Jews don’t regard Christianity as authentic, because its hard for them to bypass Moses (peace be upon him) to accept Jesus (peace be upon him), its more-or-less the same for you when it comes to muslims. You have a hard time bypassing Jesus (peace be upon him) to accept Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Think what Jews should be doing regarding Christ (peace be upon him), and draw a parallel picture in mind regarding Christians doing the same for Muahmmad.(peace be upon him).


>>As far as truth. I posted the truth. I posted the news reports out of Iran itself, that supported the truth that a man in Iran has been sentenced to execution because he converted from Islam to Christianity.<<

I don’t know what happened. Like I said, apostacy is a crime which shall be punished by death sentence in an Islamic state. There is no hiding or shying about it.

>>Yet all Muslims want to say that this is not an order of Islam... to kill. Either they do not know, or they deny, or hide, the truth of Islam. My posts were deleted and that is upsetting to me because I think we all deserve to know the truth, Muslims, Christains, Jews, it does not matter... we all should know the truth... all must know the truth.<<

I cannot comment on the particular discussion as I have not seen it.


>>What I have a problem with Islam is, if they are going to judge me an unbeliever just because I do not believe all that they do.<<

Do you believe in the message of Muhammad (peace be upon him)? If not, then you are an unbeliever in this respect.

I’d rather say you believe in God, but not His final messenger. The Quran does not call you a kafir – you are not a polytheist according to Quran, if that is what you want to hear.

>>If I live as they live and I say my God guides me to live that way, I am no different than you. Muslims do not believe in Jesus and I accept that fact<<

Good news to you J We believe in Jesus, son of mary (peace be upon them) as a prophet, and we believe in bible being a revelation of God.

For us Jesus (peace be upon him) is not a son of God. Our understanding of him is different from yours, however we do not deny him as being sent to mankind and preaching the word of God.

. >>A Muslim can join the Christian faith and leave it at any time. It is between them and God. Same with any other religion.<<

Okay, now this is a logic where you and I will see things differently.

I will try to explain. In your religion apostacy in not punished by death. So, its okay to enter or leave by free will. However in my religion its not the same.

Here you are questioning the law of a religion. Please try to understand that God has made it this way, not the followers. The followers are only following.

In all of what you accept about Islam, are the things which are also true in Christianity. However when something is different between Islam and Christianity you have a problem. So you do have a yardstick to judge the right and wrong. Its not your invention, it is what you are given from God. Correct?

We have a similar yardstick. What is wrong with that?

>> You do not have to accept my truth and I do not condemn you for it when you are a person I can obviously see lives as God wants us all to live. But are Muslims able to do this? <<

I don’t condemn you for not accepting my religion. It is my duty to present it to you, then its upto you to either take it or leave it. Yes, I think muslims are able to do this. Muslims are doing this in majority of the cases. They don’t have to worry about what others are doing.

>>It is what I am seeking to find out. As it is said, the truth of God is in the fruit, and each must be seen as an individual who bears their own fruit, whether it is good or bad. Are Muslims able to do this or must they categorize people into groups.<<

I don’t understand your question. The Quran has categorized the non-muslims in groups. Is this what you are talking about?

Caringheart, since you are a believer of God, I present Islam to you. I invite you to learn my religion and see for yourself if it carries truth in it.

“We believe in God, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the judgement day.”

http://quran.com/19 When you have time check this link.

Peace,

nausheen

Reply from Caringheart:

Thank you Nausheen for all that. It was much longer than I expected. My repl will be short becasue I am tired but I want to answer so I do not forget.

I am more than willing for our conversation to be on the boards, for the same reasons you say, if you want to give it a try.

I wouldn't say that I don't think Islam is a true religion. I think I already said that I am unconvnced of Muhammad as prophet of God. (To this I would have to go into much longer detail than I can tonight. I am not at home. I have actually been working on a post that will address it if I can get to it and if the forum admin will allow it to post.)

By my understanding 'people of the book' does mean unbeliever and Muhammad speaks of having nothing to do with them.

Where you say, "We have a similar yardstick. What is wrong with that?"

What is wrong with that, for me, is that I do not believe God would tell one human to kill another. I believe He would want us to speak, to try enlighten and save another, but not to kill... that goes against the ten commandments. I do not believe this is from God. I believe Muhammad got this from the old testament(the torah) teachings.

When you say that, "when something is different between Islam and Christianity you have a problem. " I have a problem because Islam is different from every other religion on this one thing... killing for the sake of religion. That is the mistake the early Christians made. Jesus never taught to kill in His name... that was human error.

"I don’t know what happened. Like I said, apostacy is a crime which shall be punished by death sentence in an Islamic state. There is no hiding or shying about it. "

Apparently there are those that want it to remain hidden, thus the reason for deleting it when I shared it with someone on this forum... or tried to. this is one of the concerns I have with Islam. The other is, as you can well imagine, if Islam were to rule in my country and I could be labeled an unbeliever and put to death because of it... well, how would you feel...

this is where parallels are not the same. With any other religion no one is saying put to death the Muslims, or put to death the Buddhists, or put to death the Jews. Only Islam says to do this. This is why I question who does Islam really come from. It is up to Muslims to "hold fast to that which is goo, but not to that which is not good". It is up to Muslims to seek to be sure they are in all Truth.

I do wonder if all Muslims think as you do, and truly I think all people are much the same. I do not have a problem with individuals so much as what their leadership might choose to do. You do seem more enlightened than some others I have tried to converse with(definitely more congenial Smile). My only desire is understanding and peace between peoples. I do believe culture and what part of the world you are from makes a difference.

Well, I've said alot after all. I hope I've said it well.

Blessings and good night.

 

 
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote peacemaker Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2012 at 9:29am

Assalamu Alaikum/Peace,

It happens quite often that there is a vast difference between what Islam says and what many Muslims actually do.  This is prevalent in every community. No faith or community should be held accountable for the actions of some.

I am not a scholar, and share this relevant link for informational purposes. It is better to discuss such deep issues with the scholars (those with knowledge) to enhance one's knowledge.

Here is an excerpt, but see the entire article for the clarity:

“In full conformity with the above teachings, neither the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) nor any of the four rightly guided caliphs who succeeded him were in the habit of hunting down people and executing them for merely changing their religions. Rather, they refrained from doing so except in rare cases involving treason. Treason, however, is another matter. The punishment for treason in the Qur'an is as strict as it is in the Hebrew Bible. But it must never be confused with mere change of religion.

In conclusion, it is absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam advocates killing people who covert to another religion.”

http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/crimes-and-penalties/apostasy/172501

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2012 at 9:57am
APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),
neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him:
"But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first
upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2012 at 11:57am
Originally posted by peacemaker


*** But it must never be confused with mere change of religion.

In conclusion, it is absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam advocates killing people who covert to another religion.”

http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/crimes-and-penalties/apostasy/172501

 
But Peacemaker, I posted a news article that detailed that iran is doing exactly that... they have sentenced a man to death for converting from Islam to Christianity... and that post was deleted from these forums.  It was a well thought out post too.
 
So does the rest of the Islamic world disclaim the beliefs and practices of Iran?
 
and why is their so much rhetoric from the Islamic world about exterminating the Jews and the Americans, and hatred toward Christians in general?
 
I encounter far more hate from the Islamic community than love.  This is what concerns me about the religion.  It seems to promote contention among peoples.  I do not believe God would promote contention... not by my own beliefs and teachings, of which Muhammad had similar teachings, but only for the people who chose his religion.  He did not espouse love for all as far as I have found, at least not consistently.
 
Thanking you for hearing my voice.


Edited by peacemaker - 06 July 2012 at 7:02am
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2012 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by peacemaker

Assalamu Alaikum/Peace,

It happens quite often that there is a vast difference between what Islam says and what many Muslims actually do.  This is prevalent in every community. No faith or community should be held accountable for the actions of some.

 

I totally agree with you Peacmaker.

".....truth that a man in Iran has been sentenced to execution because he converted from Islam to Christianity"

There is a vast difference between a sentence of death and actually carrying out the death penalty.  Iran overturned the execution sentence, however Iran - Shia Muslims, aren't representative of the general body of Muslims no more than Jehovah's Witnesses are representative of Christianity. 

It is my view that Caringheart is trolling our forum.

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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2012 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by peacemaker


*** But it must never be confused with mere change of religion.

In conclusion, it is absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam advocates killing people who covert to another religion.”

http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/crimes-and-penalties/apostasy/172501

 
But Peacemaker, I posted a news article that detailed that iran is doing exactly that... they have sentenced a man to death for converting from Islam to Christianity... and that post was deleted from these forums.  It was a well thought out post too.
 
So does the rest of the Islamic world disclaim the beliefs and practices of Iran?
 
and why is their so much rhetoric from the Islamic world about exterminating the Jews and the Americans, and hatred toward Christians in general?
 
I encounter far more hate from the Islamic community than love.  This is what concerns me about the religion.  It seems to promote contention among peoples.  I do not believe God would promote contention... not by my own beliefs and teachings, of which Muhammad had similar teachings, but only for the people who chose his religion.  He did not espouse love for all as far as I have found, at least not consistently.
 
Thanking you for hearing my voice.
 
Caringheart,
I wanted to help you have a discussion on these forums. However if you do not help yourself, I wont be able to succeed in this - no matter how good my intentions are.
 
It seems you have several intertwined issues against Islam, and want to broach every subject in one thread, one post - which is neither possible to address, nor very inviting for people to delve into.
 
It is advisable you sort your issues and post them in proper decorum.
 
For this thread, am still not sure if your concern is that one deleted post of yours (in replacement of which we are actually having a discussion on the subject of apostacy) or the subject of apostacy itself.
And if this is not clear, to many of us you might end up giving the impression you are simply hailing allegations and calling names to us rather than having any genuine purpose and want to know us better.
 
So please, read carefully this post, and then read Peacemaker's post - I think he has presented a very valid discussion - one that I could not find after having searched the web since yesterday ...
 
peace!


Edited by peacemaker - 06 July 2012 at 7:03am
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2012 at 8:38pm
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2012 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by iec786

APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),
neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him:
"But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first
upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9


If they say, "let us go and serve other gods" (Deuteronomy 13:6)

but according to Muhammad himself, Jews and Christians and Muslims serve the same God... the God of Abraham.  So do or do not Muslims serve the God of Abraham?

Also, did you read what I shared in my response to Nausheen...
this is a teaching that comes from the old testament
Muhammad says the old testament(the Torah) has been corrupted
If that is what you believe, then how do you know this is not one of the corrupted scriptures?  Has man inserted his own ideas, his own interpretations of God's will?  or has God preserved His Word?

Then there's this;
When God sent Jesus He was "doing a new thing"
19 See, I am doing a new thing!
    Now it springs up; do you not perceive it?

I know you can find ways to dispute these things or apply them to Muhammad and his word.  I am just sharing what my view is.

This is what I believe to be true; 
I believe Jesus brought a kinder, gentler message.  I believe the God of the old testament(the Torah, the Jewish tradition) was a God who attempted to gain the love of His people by showing His displeasure and His anger... by using harsh discipline to try to bring about the good of His people.  This did not ever work for long.(Something Muslims would do well to consider... a look and a study of history and what has worked at what does not)  Only Love overcomes.  I believe God chose then to come to us in a new way, by coming to us in the flesh, in the form of a Son, His created Son... a human man whom the people could relate to as one who faced all the same temptations that the flesh brings... to bring the message of a God who loves us, rather than simply an angry God... a God to be feared.  He comes to enlighten us to see that fear of God is really awe of God and what He can do, and that God desires only our obedience for our own good, because He loves us.  It is not the fear that simple human minds had heretofore understood.
Jesus came to bring a new message, to turn our hearts.  Jesus was the pure Love, that is God, in the flesh.

Unfortunately, Muhammad brings back the old teaching... the old way.
Through error?  Through corruption by other men to his word?  or through guidance of a wrong spirit?

This is how I see it.
Salaam

may peace come to all through the Creator who made us all.

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