Edited by Caringheart - 28 July 2012 at 12:35pm

Greetings Hasan,

To you, I see that, it is idol worship.  I see that you can not understand.  But each person knows what is in their heart, and so does God.  There is no covered up truth.  Maybe some worship as idols.  I believe most do not.
But I understand that for you this is a foreign idea.

Just as you can not reconcile how statues in the Catholic faith(because I believe the Catholic church is the only place you see them, not in other Christian places of worship) do not necessarily mean idol worship... there are things in your faith I struggle to see how you reconcile.  Like what do Muslims make of the Marian visions around the world?  How do you ignore those?

The question is, what do you think is to be done with these, to your mind,  idol worshipers?  That is the topic the thread is trying to address.

I hope your fast is going well.
Blessings,
Caringheart

“Not all of them are alike: of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of God all night long and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong; and they (hasten in emulation) in (all) good works; they are in the ranks of the righteous. Whatever good they do, its reward will not be denied to them; Allah knows the righteous.” (Qur’an; 3:113-115)


Edited by Caringheart - 01 August 2012 at 9:39pm

Greetings once again, Hasan,
I am glad to hear that your fast is going well.. and fast.  Always nice to have a smile from you.

Regarding the rest of your post;

"The problem and conflict arises when they re questioned like they experienced never before about their belief and unable to prove what they claim, this frustrates them, and they start to beat drums. They try to throw dust, put others belief down as they realize that their words seem meaningless and they do not want to admit their failiure."

Is this what you say or have you quoted from some other source?
Because it strikes me as very odd, that the very thing of which this speaks, is the very thing which I observe in you.

Learning about Islam means asking questions, but for my experience, it is the people who belong to the religion of Islam that can not handle having their religion questioned.

[Thus the moderation on this forum...

and as I wrote that I thought of this which I had posted at another thread;
"One of the enduring lessons of history is that whenever an empire becomes insular to "protect" itself, intellectual decline and cultural intolerance are sure to follow."]

and instead of answering questions launch attacks on other religion.  This is not true of all, but of many.  I have found at least two exceptions on this forum.

When you ask questions of other religion they do not come back with attacks on yours, but rather answers about theirs.

About the idols;
Yes, I have said, I agree... God says that He will not accept those who worship idols and not Himself... those who do not know Him may not come to Him.  Our perception of what this means is different.  I believe in the heart not the outward appearance.

I also, personally, do agree that many are in error in this practice regardless of what is in their hearts, but I believe they are in ignorance, not reading and not knowing for themselves what the scriptures say... they simply follow in the way it has been done before them... like those who do not question worship at the Kabba, believing it is sanctioned by God and not really looking at the roots from which it sprang.  Will God condemn these people for their ignorance?  I am not the one to say.  I personally think they will answer, but I do not think they will be condemned to hell fire for eternity, and certainly I, as a human, am not the one to judge.

"Still, the choice is of the individual to make, but each choice has a declared consequence according to the scriptures."

So we come back to my original question;
"The question is, what do you think is to be done with these, to your mind,  idol worshipers?  That is the topic the thread is trying to address."

Does the religion of any other person threaten you in any way as a person?
Do you not think it is fair for those of other faith (those whom Islam calls Kafir) to want to be assured that they have nothing to fear from your faith?  Perhaps your friends choose to ignore these things, but not all wish to be so blind.  We would rather not be "caught unawares".  This forum is for asking questions... even the hard ones.

It is good to focus on the good, I agree, but you must also be willing to realistically assess, and discard the bad, otherwise you may find yourself caught up in battles you never planned or expected to be in.  Do not be blind... Do not be caught unaware and do not be caught with no escape.

Blessings to you Hasan,




Edited by Caringheart - 04 August 2012 at 4:21pm

Greetings Hasan,

I am curious about this one thing...

"You have claimed that Christianity is better than Islam. "

Where have I made that claim?  I have never made any such claim to my knowledge.  I have shared my doubts and concerns about your religion, that is all.

I have shown you how I understand God as trinity.  You simply do not understand, or accept it.  That is fine.  I have tried to explain, you don't have to accept.

I don't make claims, I share beliefs.

Jesus says He is one with God.  I believe what Jesus says.
If it only makes sense to me it is simply because you do not share my belief.

I don't believe there is any purpose in beating dead horses, so communication moves on to new things.
There is no proof, only belief.  You must prove, or reject, your own beliefs.  I only share my point of view.

I've never felt like you were harsh.  We are just conversing.

What is interesting to me is how difficult communication between us is.  You do not see how I see you, and I do not see how you see me.  You see me as claiming to be better.  I do not see that.  I certainly do not feel that.  I think we both believe we belong to God.  I can accept that of you.  Can you accept that of me?

As to "where I have observed those things in you"
If you have a fast computer and are willing to take an objective look, you can look back over our conversations and determine for yourself.  Neither I, or my computer, can handle the work, my computer is too slow.  I just don't have the time.  I am contemplating the things you said about me.
I wonder, do you really not know what you do?

"should worship only God, unseen. After that, it is up to them, and they will answer to God"

I personally agree, this is what God said.  I do not know why or how statues came to be... people love art... they love something to look at... People do what they want to do... much like how the Kabba, and the rock, came into existence and remains as a thing of worship, now being called worship to Allah.

I think the point you miss is that it is not for us to judge others... if the person says that they are praying to God and not a statue(or a rock), we must accept what they say, because only that person, and God, knows what is in their heart.  You can not keep accusing them of idol worship if they have told you they are not worshiping the statue(or the rock) but are in their mind giving honor to God.  God objected to the pagans who believed that a god actually lived in the form of their statues.  In those cases they were worshiping a god, other than God.

Salaam,
Caringheart



Edited by Caringheart - 07 August 2012 at 4:19pm