IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Infidels ?

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Caringheart

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Topic: Infidels ?
Posted: 15 June 2012 at 12:48pm

I am seeking for Muslim's to tell me how they define what makes one an infidel?
Thank you.

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abuayisha

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Posted: 15 June 2012 at 10:50pm

I would define it as a cover-up of sorts, whereby a person knows without a doubt the truth of a particular matter yet still rejects it. The example of a lone juror in a criminal trial who secretly believes beyond any doubt the defendant committed the crime but still for whatever reason fails to return a verdict of guilt. When applied to Islam someone must likewise know and understand Islam to be the correct path and flat out refuse to follow. This person is an infidel.

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Matt Browne
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Posted: 16 June 2012 at 6:40am

Infidel is an outdated term, which has no place in the 21st century.

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt

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Caringheart

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Posted: 16 June 2012 at 5:30pm

Originally posted by abuayisha

I would define it as a cover-up of sorts, whereby a person knows without a doubt the truth of a particular matter yet still rejects it. The example of a lone juror in a criminal trial who secretly believes beyond any doubt the defendant committed the crime but still for whatever reason fails to return a verdict of guilt. When applied to Islam someone must likewise know and understand Islam to be the correct path and flat out refuse to follow. This person is an infidel.

Thank you abuayisha. I very much appreciate your reply. I hope I hear from others as well on their ideas.

So following what you said...
What if a person is not convinced that Islam is the correct path and so chooses another path? Then he is not an infidel, correct?

Who gets to decide what a person "knows and understands"? I am guessing that if they choose a different path then they do not "know and understand" Islam to be the correct path.

It seems to me that the individual gets to say and decide what he "knows and understands to be the correct path" and so are not refusing to follow but believes something else.

Edited by Caringheart - 16 June 2012 at 5:32pm

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Caringheart

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Posted: 17 June 2012 at 5:08pm

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Infidel is an outdated term, which has no place in the 21st century.

But if God's word is unchanging, and if Muslim's believe that the Quran is God's word, then it does not go out of date. If Muslim's are called to follow God's word, and they believe the word as it is written in the Quran, then they are held to this concept of the infidel so it needs definition.

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Caringheart

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Posted: 19 June 2012 at 1:01am

Ok, I have learned that the word infidel never appears in the quran, rather the word unbeliever or idolator.
So I still have the question, I would like to know how Muslims define these terms. Who, have they been taught, is the unbeliever? Who is the idolator? and what is required by being a follower of Islam? I am seeking to know how many different views there are and whether a majority of Muslims know the teaching of their religion enough to share with me, and what their interpretation is. I would like to compare views. I am withholding my definition in the hopes that others will share uninfluenced by my own view.

Edited by Caringheart - 19 June 2012 at 1:03am

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Matt Browne
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Posted: 19 June 2012 at 3:11am

If Muslims believe that the Quran is God's word for Muslims, then it does go out of date. Like Christians, most modern Muslims gave up the concept of one and only one true religion. What is true for Muslims must not necessarily be true for Christians and vice versa. I posted this in the other thread:

A philosophical discussion about truth is very complex. Hundreds of very smart people have explored this issue over the past 3000 years. I am a proponent of the peaceful coexistence of multiple spiritual truths, for the very simple reason that it's the only way for 7 billion people in a globalized world to get along with each other. There are spiritual truths in Islam such as Muhammad being the last prophet of God, there are spiritual truths in Christianity such as Jesus being the son of God (in a symbolic, not biological way), there are spiritual truths in Buddhism such as the noble eightfold path as the way to eliminate suffering, and so forth.

A problem only arises if followers of one religion claim that the spiritual truths of their own religion is the only truth. Modern Christians don't make this claim anymore. They consider Jesus as their savior, but accept the fact that other people do not view Jesus as their savior. They accept the fact that Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet, but not the son of God. For Hindus Jesus is not even a prophet. It's what they believe and we respect that. Modern Christians would never call Islam or Hinduism a false religion. Modern Christians believe in freedom of thought and freedom of religion, which even means that some people do not believe in a deity at all.

A Christian who follows Jesus, think that he is the one who is right and successful within the framework of Christianity, believing in the spiritual truths of this religion. A Buddhist is also right and successful pursuing the four noble truths within the framework of Buddhism. Telling a Buddhist that he or she is wrong and a follower of a false religion accomplishes absolutely nothing. It's even counterproductive and endangers world peace. A true follower of Jesus will do everything to promote world peace and choose his words wisely avoiding to hurt the feelings of other people.

One might say orange is the most beautiful color.
Someone else says that purple is the most beautiful color.

Who is right? Is there a proof for who is right?

Edited by Matt Browne - 19 June 2012 at 3:12am

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt

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iec786

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Posted: 25 June 2012 at 1:32pm

Who is right? Is there a proof for who is right?

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them
Exodus 20 (King James Version)

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
112:1

Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
112:2

Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
112:3
He neither begets nor is born,
112:4
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

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Author	Message
Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1311	Topic: Infidels ? Posted: 15 June 2012 at 12:48pm
	I am seeking for Muslim's to tell me how they define what makes one an infidel? Thank you.
	IP Logged

abuayisha Senior Member Joined: 05 October 1999 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3997	Posted: 15 June 2012 at 10:50pm
	I would define it as a cover-up of sorts, whereby a person knows without a doubt the truth of a particular matter yet still rejects it. The example of a lone juror in a criminal trial who secretly believes beyond any doubt the defendant committed the crime but still for whatever reason fails to return a verdict of guilt. When applied to Islam someone must likewise know and understand Islam to be the correct path and flat out refuse to follow. This person is an infidel.
	IP Logged

Matt Browne Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 19 April 2010 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 755	Posted: 16 June 2012 at 6:40am
	Infidel is an outdated term, which has no place in the 21st century.
	A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
	IP Logged

Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1311	Posted: 16 June 2012 at 5:30pm
	*Originally posted by abuayisha* I would define it as a cover-up of sorts, whereby a person knows without a doubt the truth of a particular matter yet still rejects it. The example of a lone juror in a criminal trial who secretly believes beyond any doubt the defendant committed the crime but still for whatever reason fails to return a verdict of guilt. When applied to Islam someone must likewise know and understand Islam to be the correct path and flat out refuse to follow. This person is an infidel. Thank you abuayisha. I very much appreciate your reply. I hope I hear from others as well on their ideas. So following what you said... What if a person is not convinced that Islam is the correct path and so chooses another path? Then he is not an infidel, correct? Who gets to decide what a person "knows and understands"? I am guessing that if they choose a different path then they do not "know and understand" Islam to be the correct path. It seems to me that the individual gets to say and decide what he "knows and understands to be the correct path" and so are not refusing to follow but believes something else. Edited by Caringheart - 16 June 2012 at 5:32pm
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1311	Posted: 17 June 2012 at 5:08pm
	*Originally posted by Matt Browne* Infidel is an outdated term, which has no place in the 21st century. But if God's word is unchanging, and if Muslim's believe that the Quran is God's word, then it does not go out of date. If Muslim's are called to follow God's word, and they believe the word as it is written in the Quran, then they are held to this concept of the infidel so it needs definition.
	IP Logged

Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1311	Posted: 19 June 2012 at 1:01am
	Ok, I have learned that the word infidel never appears in the quran, rather the word unbeliever or idolator. So I still have the question, I would like to know how Muslims define these terms. Who, have they been taught, is the unbeliever? Who is the idolator? and what is required by being a follower of Islam? I am seeking to know how many different views there are and whether a majority of Muslims know the teaching of their religion enough to share with me, and what their interpretation is. I would like to compare views. I am withholding my definition in the hopes that others will share uninfluenced by my own view. Edited by Caringheart - 19 June 2012 at 1:03am
	IP Logged

Matt Browne Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 19 April 2010 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 755	Posted: 19 June 2012 at 3:11am
	If Muslims believe that the Quran is God's word for Muslims, then it does go out of date. Like Christians, most modern Muslims gave up the concept of one and only one true religion. What is true for Muslims must not necessarily be true for Christians and vice versa. I posted this in the other thread: A philosophical discussion about truth is very complex. Hundreds of very smart people have explored this issue over the past 3000 years. I am a proponent of the peaceful coexistence of multiple spiritual truths, for the very simple reason that it's the only way for 7 billion people in a globalized world to get along with each other. There are spiritual truths in Islam such as Muhammad being the last prophet of God, there are spiritual truths in Christianity such as Jesus being the son of God (in a symbolic, not biological way), there are spiritual truths in Buddhism such as the noble eightfold path as the way to eliminate suffering, and so forth. A problem only arises if followers of one religion claim that the spiritual truths of their own religion is the only truth. Modern Christians don't make this claim anymore. They consider Jesus as their savior, but accept the fact that other people do not view Jesus as their savior. They accept the fact that Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet, but not the son of God. For Hindus Jesus is not even a prophet. It's what they believe and we respect that. Modern Christians would never call Islam or Hinduism a false religion. Modern Christians believe in freedom of thought and freedom of religion, which even means that some people do not believe in a deity at all. A Christian who follows Jesus, think that he is the one who is right and successful within the framework of Christianity, believing in the spiritual truths of this religion. A Buddhist is also right and successful pursuing the four noble truths within the framework of Buddhism. Telling a Buddhist that he or she is wrong and a follower of a false religion accomplishes absolutely nothing. It's even counterproductive and endangers world peace. A true follower of Jesus will do everything to promote world peace and choose his words wisely avoiding to hurt the feelings of other people. One might say orange is the most beautiful color. Someone else says that purple is the most beautiful color. Who is right? Is there a proof for who is right? Edited by Matt Browne - 19 June 2012 at 3:12am
	A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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iec786 Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 282	Posted: 25 June 2012 at 1:32pm
	Who is right? Is there a proof for who is right? 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them Exodus 20 (King James Version) بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم 112:1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One, 112:2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge. 112:3 He neither begets nor is born, 112:4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."
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