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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 26 September 2005 at 10:34am

I guess it really depends on one's idea of 'feminism'. 

One has to look at the culture of course. Here in the US women WERE 2nd class citizens. We did not have the right to divorce, right to vote etc. People worked to change that. Yes other things went wrong, but people need to take into account hstory is different for different people. Women were not appreciated and treated like children up until recently.

Did not the prophets also do this?  Is it not common knowledge that women's lives in Arabia before the Prophet (PBUH) were really in a bad position?

The Quran makes many references to the rights of women. This may contribute to why more women are becoming Moslems then men.. just maybe

I have no issues with general gender roles for orgaizational reasons. But I don't exercise and do physical things to be "like a man', I do them because it is enjoyable. I like feeling healthy. Everything must have its boundaries as a society to be whole. But men and women are all different.  What is defined by 'feminine'  by one person is NOT the same as others.  We could argue forever what feminine is. Frankly some men like to feel 'in charge' and others really have no issue with women who take more responsibilty.

Frankly with a lot of women they 'act' helpless to control men. They are not helpless. It is called passive control. Some do it to not 'lose their man'. Others do it because its how they are as a person.. I've seen men and women try and control another person to the point it is frankly abuse and its unhealthy.

Is 'feminine' about how you look? How you dress? We want women to be wholesome and natural,  but pretty too. Some men and women like alot of make-up, others do not. We want them to be the best wife and mother.. what is that.. each of us defines it differently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Brother123 Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2005 at 7:14am

First of all Mr Islamicity moderator. I dont recall saying to her she has done zina as i know the punishment for that.

secoundly when i said children should be married before 18 say at 14 then she claimed thats was paodphilia. You didnt find anything wrong in that. Demostrates either your  extreme lack of knowledge of Islam or your lack of love of the Sunnah. Why do i say lack of love for the sunanh. because the prophet saw encouraged girls and boys to get married at a very young age. So much that He even  had  married a 14 yr old boy get married. So when she is attacking me she is atatcking the Prophet saw. yet your love for this sister is far greater than your love for the Prophet saw.

And we know what the khalifah Umar did to the man who refused teh judgement of the Prophet saw. He choped his head of and even Allah sent down verses appoving Umars action.

 Under the Khailafh of Umar What would be the lot of  the  Islamicity moderators for allowing the sunnah of the prophet saw to be blaphemed in such a way and even threatening the ones who talk about this sunnah,

 



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Quote Brother123 Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2005 at 9:36am

Sister hayfa nothing wrong with excersise at home. infact it should be done to keep healthy and look good for the husband.

But the kaffirs when they took femanists as their way to a better society, they went from one one extreme to the other extreme.Just like westren society kaffisr wnet form  no divorce to no zina being ok.

We cannot approve of of either of these extremes.

Just as we cant approve or accept values  of kaffir male shuvanism we cant acccept values of kaffir femanism

So for those who have  grown up in such a society he/she has to be careful that what she was brought up with is not against her deen.

Some times a sister converts to Islam and she see something similat in Islam and starts to reject it. (not saying you).

Problem sometimes occurs when poeple do not tell her what she is doing or saying is wrong so she remains in error and leads others  even into error.

 And as we can see from some of the other poeples posts here that they dislikeed men telling them what to do in jahilai and now in Islam they dislike men telling them about Islam. Such poeple will always have a chip on their shoulder about men even after converting and they start to  give the rest of the converts a bad name. Then no one accept green card holders etc 

Even look at it from a mothers point of view. Islam requires a wife to be obedient to her husband unless he says disobey Allah, do something haram.

If the sisters  has this kuffar attitute "no man can tell me what to do" then you have another sister who says Islam reuires me to obey my hsuband unless he tellls me to do some thing haram.

Whch wife  would a muslim mother choose for her son.

And we know from hadith that the majority of women in hellfire will be women, not becase teyhy are women but becase these particular women do not obey thier husbands and are ungrateful to their husbands.

So the issue of poeple who converted geting rid of femanist ideas is not a light issue. It can be the diffrence of them going into the hellfire or going into heaven.

 

its asr time now but maybe anotehr day i will write this is more detail or provide a link.

www.shariahway.com

 

 



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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2005 at 10:18am

So for those who have  grown up in such a society he/she has to be careful that what she was brought up with is not against her deen.

And what is your society? This can be said of yours as well..

And what is anyone's definition of feminisim? How you define it may be different then mine.

What about cultural maichismo... I have been to Islamic places.. you can meet all types of men, some who do not accept the inherent value of women. The right to be educated, the right to be of value as a human being. This is often tied into economics more then anything. But facing men who think that women are dumb, weak or incapable is cultural. You find me a place where it says this in any Quran or Sunnah?  The Quran and Sunnah addresses this in many places- the rights of women. Why did it have to do so? Because some men did not and still do not.  

I had a dialgue with someone from your web site. He says its important for women to know Quran and the women knew it better then men. You'd think the men ought to know it just as well since both genders are responsible..and men need  to know their duties, less they be corrupted by traditional cultural values.

Allah made all of us.. even those of use not born where you think is appropriate. Allah made the Native American peoples, the Buddhists, the traditional religious peoples in Africa, the Christians, the Jews, the Hindus, etc. You may not understand their way of life, but they are human being nonetheless. Would the Prophet (PBUH) treat others as you have? Accusing all non-Moslems as terrible and sinners. You have never met them! Allah asks us to repect life and no be egotistical. And respecting what Allah has created goes along way.

Maybe the west in your eyes 'went to far'. MAybe so. But for what you represent to be an alternative, attacking them is not the best way to go about being a positive role model. What you demonstrate is a lack of compassion, humbleness, friendliness, and decency. 

I remember when I visited A Moslem country. (And let me tell you, there is pornography, drinking, and other sins there too.)The people welcomed me without pre-judging me. They led by example of kindness, consideration and humbleness. I am not saying you have to agree with people and their actions but look into who they are as a person and see that yes people may be messed up but they still are just people.

I can appreciate that you come from a different place then I. Your family is different then mine. Can I relate to your life? No.  Nor can you probably mine. But a dialogue helps promote understanding and greater insights. I learned alot from my Moslem friends around the globe and actually they learned that not all people here hate Moslems.

My friend calls nonMoslems "lost sheep'.  Consider yourself lucky that you are not living in darkness. You have been giving a blessing by Allah.. Bes to use it wisely.

 

 

 

 

 

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Jenni Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2005 at 11:44am
Brother123 ASSUMES THAT men are all good providers and good husbands so thier wives should be co operative with them(I think co-operative and helpful is better worded than obedient because in english obedient is used to state how a dog should be with its owner, obedient is not a good word to use when describing how a wife should be with her husband since she is not a dog or slave or servant, she should be co-operative and helpful and listen to her husband). The problem is that many muslim men are not good husbands, or providers. They do not treat thier wives well and make them slave alone in the house with no help with the kids, and often make the wife serve his parents and siblings. In this case I do not think the wife has to obey his every wim, like getting his water when he knows where the glasses and sink are. Women need to stand up for themselves and keep thier husbands in line as well. If he is watching a dirty movie or looking at magazines she should take action, if he mistreats her or the kids she should not tolerate it, if he does not meet her needs emotionally or physically she should demand that he does. Women have the right to demand safety, love and respect from thier husbands, not just wait around and hope for it. And no woman should just have to obey a terrible husband, she has options such as seperation or divorce if needed.
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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Quote Brother123 Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2005 at 12:24pm

Jenni if you have a problem with the word obediance. Then please take up with the prophet peace be upon him not me.

If you do not like what he said then your problem with with him.

And we will see what the outcome will be when Allah judges who is corrcet you or the Prophet.

As far as i am concerned i love the messenger of Allah with all my heart and i love every word he said. I am happy with what He said.

 

Those who are not happy with what he said or ordered then they can challange him in the hereafter.

and for those brothers and sisters who love want Allah to be pleased with them read this (if you want..i cant force poeple to love the prophet.  )...

 

Allah says:

Indeed Allah conferred a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from among themselves, reciting unto them His Verses (the Quran), and purifying them (from sins by their following him), and instructing them (in) the Book (the Quran) and Al­Hikmah [the wisdom and the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW (i.e. his legal ways, statements, acts of worship, etc.)], while before that they had been in manifest error.(3:164)

Allah says to His Messenger(SAW)

Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Quran and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (3:31)

Allah also says in Surah Al-Hashr

....And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. (59:7)

Again Allah says:

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.(4:59)

A Muslim has to show total obediance to the Prophet otherwise he or she will have no faith

And Allah says:

But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.

In the next verse Allah again tells his Messenger

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbeliever's(3:32)

These verses clearly indicate that disobedient to either Allah or His Messenger or both takes one out of Islam.Therefore one has to make shure that they are obediant to Allah and His Messenger.

As for thoese who do not wish to obey the commands of the Prophet peace be upon him such as obeying the husband, treating the wife with kindness then i am free from them and the true muslims are free from them.

We can only advice to an extend such people. If they dont wish to follow the above commadments then Allah then they are the loosers.

www.shariahway.com

 

 

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Quote Jenni Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2005 at 1:21pm
Brother123 obedient is an English word, not Arabic. I am saying the arabic word does not translate well into english. I have been told this by Arabic speaking people. It does not have anything to do with what the prophet said since he was speaking Arabic and it is difficult to translate into english. In english obedient is a deragatory term that people use to describe how a dog should behave. Truely your IQ lacking to be able to understand what I am saying. Being obedient is different that listening to or obeying such as obeying ones parents. If I tell someone I want by children to be very obedient sounds different than I want my children to obey my wishes. Do you have no understanding of semantics??? Get a clue.
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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Quote Brother123 Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2005 at 1:21pm

Her we have a clasic case of two reaons were why most of the inhabitants of hell will be women

One is disobediance  of the husband.

As  jenni and lemmese seem to be advocating. Those who wnat to be disobedinat to tehir hsubands all we can do is laugh.

 

Secound case is being ungrateful to their husbands.

had i said the men use dto be more learned in the Quran. hayfa would have said see how bad u muslim men are you dot let women be educated.  But because i said the direct opposite now she is still not happy. So either way i loose.

And this secound weekness that women have accoring to our Prophet saw in that they are ungarteful to their husbands. The husband works  hard to provide for her she will say u never did anything for me.

 

So for those sisters who really do want to avoid the hellfire they need to be  make sure they dont fall into these two things. And you should know the reason why you are obedinate is to please ultimnatelly Allah. If the hsuband doesnt give you your righst then should you do in kind? if the hsuband goes to hell for not giveing you your rights do you wnat to go to hell for being disobedinate?

In another comment one of these 3 femanist  was the hated muslim men telling them they shoudl wera hijab,

The beauty of Islam is that the true  Muslim men have gheerah for their wives and for the Sisters in Islam. When some one tells you not to do haram and to do good one should be grateful. 

If some  is going into a burning house and some man grabs her because he knows she will be harmed and possibbly die in the house that is totaly engulfed in fire. Should she not be grateful to the man.

 What if the same man said dopy women and laughed just to see her jumping into the fire. Should she say what a wonderful man he didnt tell me what to do. 

 

or say both men are there together. One saying dont go there it will harm you and she saying you are a man why u men always telling us what to do. And the secound kind gentel man smiles to her and says yes your right. Dont let no man tell you what to do.

 The same case is with say when soem true muslim brothesr tell a women wera hijab for not weraing it will harm you and may put u in the fire .

And there are other  say why tell her she will only insult you. let her roast in hell.

Or even say yes u are right you shoulnt let men tell you what to wear how dare they (becase he wnts the pleasure of seing her beauty

femanist women lack common sense compared to the non femanist women.

Their attitude is if the man i (by not giveing the women her rights)  disobedinat to Allah then why shouldnt i be disobedinat to Allah (by being disobedinate to my husband).

And not only are they harmful for themslves they are harmful for the Iman of other brotehsr and sisters. They are like achild plating with matches in a house as their ability to reson is less than a childs but their ability to type or speak is alos like the childs ability to strike a match and light a fire. And the child she burns her self and the whole family sleeping  in the house.

They really lacks any common sense. As we have seen from the posts of these 3 poor sisters and it will be impossible to reason with them.

(now can i please get back to my own forum i just came on this to relax lol) 

 www.shariahway.com

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