You raise very insightful questions. I hope they are answered as best as possible without attacking. The notion seems if the Bible in Muslims opinion is wrong then the Quran is right, which seriously undermines Allah who says he can preserve the scriptures but he has fail to do so.

What this does is puts doubt in the mind of its reader because if he failed to preserve one revelation why should anyone believe he can preserve the next revelation?

If he preserves the next revelation what happened, did he gain more power? If the Apostle John says he has the ‘final revelation’ but now Muhammad says he has the ‘final’ is it true that the Baha is’ faith has the final, final revelation from Allah?

I mean, if Allah changed his mind before he can do it again, again and then again after all nothing is impossible, right?

Welcome to the forum Lucasan2294

Kish    


Edited by Kish - 05 May 2012 at 8:23pm

Did mankind tamper with the Old Testament?

"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deuteronomy 31:25-29)" Here the Jews' hands are predicted to cause so much corruption (including corruption in the Bible).   Jeremiah 8:8 below which came approximately 826 later confirmed the Bible corruption.

"How can you say we (the Jews) are wise and the law of the Lord is with us, when in fact the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie? (Jeremiah 8:8 (Revised Standard Version))"

"And because of their (the Jews) breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their places and have abandoned a good part of the message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them and overlook (their misdeed). Verily! Allah loves the kindly. (The Noble Quran, 5:13)"

"O Messenger!(Muhammad) Do not be grieved by those who vie with one another in the race to disbelief, of such as say with their mouths: "We believe" but their hearts believe not, and of the Jews: of them are those who listen eagerly to lies -listener to others who have not come to you. They change the words from their places; they say: If you are given this then take it, but if you are not given this then beware! He whom Allah dooms unto sin, you (by your efforts) will avail him naught against Allah. Those are they for whom the will of Allah is that He cleanse not their hearts; for them there is a disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a great torment.   (The Noble Quran, 5:41)"

For countless ages, the only book of history available to Christians and Jews was the Old Testament. When someone wanted to know what happened in the past, they would go back and study the Old Testament to find the answer. New theories about history literally lived and died by their conformance to what the Old Testament taught. Then the discrepancies began to be noticed.

Once mankind began to study the Old Testament in detail, comparing the various passages which referred to the same topic in order to obtain as much detail as possible, they began to notice conflicting accounts of many matters as well as other problems. For instance, in the eleventh century, it was noticed that the list of Edomite kings in Genesis 36 names kings who lived long after Moses was dead Then people began to notice such statements as "to this day" something is true, which implies that the author was looking back at these matters through history and has seen that they have endured.





The different "Canons" of the Bible!

Different and conflicting variations of "gospels" and "books" that are disagreed upon by the Churches today.



After this, it was noticed that in the beginning verses of the OT manuscripts, Deuteronomy says: "These are the words that Moses spoke to the children of Israel across the Jordan...." They noticed that the words "across the Jordan" refers to people who are on the opposite side of the Jordan river to the author. But the alleged author, Moses himself, was never supposed to have been in Israel in his life.

It was also noticed that Moses speaks in detail in Deuteronomy 34:5-10 about how he died and where he was buried. Moses also calls himself the most humble man on earth in Numbers 12:3 (would the most humble man on earth call himself the most humble man on earth?). In Deuteronomy 34:10 we read "And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses." This also implies that the author was looking back at Moses through history a long time after Moses's death. Now the flood gates were opened and countless other discrepancies began to show up.

In the beginning, it was claimed that Moses wrote the Pentateuch (Five "books of Moses") and anyone contesting this fact would be severely punished or worse. However, when these matters started to become well known, it became necessary to find explanations. For example, the first explanation presented for the verses referring to the death of Moses was that Moses had written his books, but that later prophets, as well as "inspired" scribes (who could also be considered prophets), had later on added on a couple of lines here and there. In this manner the text remained 100% the "inspiration" of God. This explanation, however, did not stand up to scrutiny because the style and literary characteristics of the verses are the same throughout. For instance, the verses which describe the death and burial of Moses exhibit the same literary characteristics as the verses before and after them.

After this, the trend became to explain any and all discrepancies through abstraction and elaborate interpretations, or through the introduction of additional narrative details that did not appear in the biblical text. Around this time, a startling new discovery was made. It was noticed that the stories in the five books of Moses were made up of doublets. A doublet is a case of one story being told twice. Even in the English translation of the Bible, the doublets are noticeable. These doublets have been masterfully intertwined so that they become one narrative.

For example, there are doublets of the creation of the world, the covenant between God and Abraham, the naming of Isaac, Abraham's claim that his wife Sarah was his sister, the story of Jacob's journey to Mesopotamia, Jacob's revelation at Beth-El,...etc. In many cases these doublets actually contradict one another. The apologists once again jumped up with an explanation in hand. They claimed that the doublets were complementary and not contradictory. It was claimed that they came to teach us a lesson by their "apparent" contradiction. However, this claim did not hold water for long. The reason is that not long after, it was discovered that when the doublets were separated into two separate accounts, each account was almost always consistent about the name of the deity that it used. One would always refer to God as Yahweh/Jehovah. This document was called "J." The other always referred to Him as Elohiym(God). It was called "E." There were various other literary characteristics which were then found to be common to one group or the other. It became obvious that someone had taken two separate accounts of the ministry of Moses , cut them up, and then woven them together quite masterfully so that their actions would not be discovered until countless centuries later.

Once this startling discovery was made, the Old Testament was once again placed under the scrutiny of scholars and it was discovered that the Pentateuch was not made up of two major source documents but FOUR. It was discovered that some stories were not only doublets, but triplets. Additional literary characteristics were identified for these documents. The third source was called P (for Priestly), and the fourth D (for Deuteronomy). In the end it was concluded that the first four "books of Moses" were the result of the merging of three separate accounts which were called J, E, and P, and the book of Deuteronomy was found to be a separate account which was called D. The person (or persons) who collected and intertwined these sources was called "The Redactor."

"D (DEUTERONOMIST). The designation of one of the principle literary sources or strata of the PENTATEUCH. The Deuteronomist was the editor or compiler of this source, which is roughly coextensive with the book of Deuteronomy"

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Abingdon Press, Vol. 1, p. 756

"E (ELOHIST). One of the principle narrative sources or strata of the PENTATEUCH. The term is derived from a Hebrew word for 'God' ... the use of which is characteristic of this source"

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Abingdon Press, Vol. 2, p. 1

"J. One of the principle narrative sources or strata of the PENTATEUCH. The symbol is derived from the personal name of God, Jehovah ... the use of which is characteristic of this source. It is commonly regarded as Judahite in origin, and somewhat earlier than E (tenth-ninth centuries B.C.)"

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Abingdon Press, Vol. 2, p. 777

"P. The designation of the so-called Priestly source of the PENTATEUCH. To this source are assigned most of the liturgical, genealogical, legal, and technical materials, connected by a bare minimum of narrative. The Priestly narrative is usually dated after the captivity, in the sixth or fifth century B.C."

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Abingdon Press, Vol. 3, p. 617

"The critical analysis of the Hexateuch [the five 'books of Moses' plus the book of Joshua] is the result of more than a century of profound study of the documents by the greatest critics of the age. There has been a steady advance until the present position of agreement has been reached, in which Jew and Christian, Roman Catholic and Protestant, Rationalistic and Evangelical scholars, Reformed and Lutheran, Presbyterian and Episcopal, Unitarian, Methodist, and Baptist all concur. The analysis of the Hexateuch into several distinct original documents is a purely literary question in which no article of faith is involved. Whoever in these times, in the discussion of the literary phenomena of the Hexateuch appeals to the ignorance or prejudice of the multitude as if they were any peril to faith in these processes of Higher Criticism, risks his reputation for scholarship by so doing. There are no Hebrew professors on the continent of Europe, so far as I know, who deny the literary analysis of the Pentateuch into the four great documents"

Who wrote the Bible, Washington Gladden, Boston: Houghton, pp. 57-58

What exactly does the author mean by the statement "Whoever in these times, in the discussion of the literary phenomena of the Hexateuch appeals to the ignorance or prejudice of the multitude as if they were any peril to faith in these processes of Higher Criticism, risks his reputation for scholarship by so doing" ? Well, he is referring to the practices of men who have a regrettable formula for selling their books which is based upon backing the reader into a corner and then giving them only one way to save their faith. For example, they would say words to the effect "Either the Bible is 100% the inspired, unchanged, and undisputed word of God or else it is the greatest hoax ever foisted upon mankind from the beginning of time." Such authors only allow their readers to accept one extreme or the other. In effect, they are telling their readers "either you accept every word and every syllable as undying inspired truth or else renounce Jesus and become a pagan."

However, the truth lies at neither extreme. Allah Almighty tells us in the Qur'an:

"O people of the book! Do not go to extremes in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. (The Noble Quran, 4:171)"

The fact that we recognize that mankind has tampered with the Bible does not mean that God, at one point in time, did not send down a revelation upon prophet Moses, or that He did not send down a revelation upon prophet Jesus (peace be upon them both). It only means that "thou shalt love the Lord thy God … with all thy mind, …" Mark 12:30. The fact that we wish to sift out the words of man from the book of God and only follow the words of God is not by any stretch of the imagination an abandonment of God or Jesus. Quite the contrary, anyone who is not willing to do their utmost in protecting the words of God from the tampering fingers of mankind has indeed forsaken the very first commandment of God.

"For almost two millennia the Pentateuch was attributed to Moses as author by both Jewish and Christian tradition. Although significant questions about his authorship were raised along the way, it was not until the eighteenth century that the question was seriously broached. Today, it is commonplace that he did not write the Pentateuch, but as we shall see the formation of these books is still shrouded in mystery."

The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, p. 4

Grolier's encyclopedia, under the heading "Divisions of the Old Testament" states:

"The Pentateuch is based on four principal sources. The oldest, J, was perhaps written in Judah, the southern kingdom, about 950 BC. Between 900 and 750, another version from Israel, the northern kingdom, was woven in; this is called EPHRAIM (E). In the 7th century BC, Deuteronomy, or most of it (D), was compiled. About 550 BC, during the exile, the final edition of the Torah added a priestly source (P), some parts of which are very old."

Encarta's Encyclopedia says:

"Pentateuch (Greek penta, "five"; teuch, "book"), collectively, first five books of the Old Testament, that is, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The term was used by the Christian theologian Origen to denote what the Jews of his time called the "Five-Fifths of Torah (teaching)." Pentateuch is the translation of the Hebrew term for this concept. The Torah is the holiest and most beloved of the sacred writings of the Jews. "The Five Books of Moses," as a designation of the Pentateuch, was first used in the Western church by St. Jerome and the Christian theologian Tyrannius Rufinus. The Mosaic authorship of the work is not directly affirmed in the books themselves, but it became tacitly accepted by Christian orthodoxy. The Pentateuch includes various textual strata of writings, notably the Yahwist (J, which refers to God as Jahwe—modern Jehovah—or Yahweh) and the Elohist (E, which refers to God as Elohiym). The Hebrew priest and reformer Ezra, whose work is associated with another textual component of the Pentateuch known as the Priestly stratum (P), gave impetus to observance of the regulations of the Pentateuch."

Let us have a look at an example of these doublets from Genesis 6:5 to 8:22. The Jehovah(J) text is in regular type, the Priestly(P) is in bold:

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Genesis 6:10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Genesis 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

Genesis 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Genesis 6:14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Genesis 6:15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

Genesis 6:16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Genesis 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Genesis 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

Genesis 6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Genesis 6:21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

Genesis 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

Genesis 7:

Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Genesis 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Genesis 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

Genesis 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

Genesis 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

Genesis 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

Genesis 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Genesis 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Genesis 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Genesis 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Genesis 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Genesis 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

Genesis 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Genesis 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

Genesis 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Genesis 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Genesis 8:

Genesis 8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;

Genesis 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

Genesis 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

Genesis 8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

Genesis 8:5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.

Genesis 8:6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:

Genesis 8:7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.

Genesis 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;

Genesis 8:9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

Genesis 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;

Genesis 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

Genesis 8:12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.

Genesis 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

Genesis 8:14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

Genesis 8:15 And God spake unto Noah, saying,

Genesis 8:16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Genesis 8:17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

Genesis 8:18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:

Genesis 8:19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.

Genesis 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savor; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Genesis 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease

Richard Elliot Friedman is a professor in the University of California, San Diego. He earned his Doctorate in Hebrew Bible at Harvard University. He is one of many scholars who have attempted to critically study these "source" documents of the "five books of Moses" in order to arrive at the identity of the authors, the time period when each was written, the motives for writing each narrative, and other information. In his book "Who Wrote the Bible," Prof. Friedman presents strong evidence that each "source document" was written by a person or persons who, while on the face of it seem to narrate the same stories, in actuality had distinctly different goals they wished to achieve.

According to Mr. Friedman's research, each source emphasizes a certain branch of the Jews, their nobility, birth right, and closeness to God. Sometimes at the price of other branches of the Jews. For instance, J was written by descendants of Judah, E came from descendants of Israel, and P was written by a priest from the descendants of Aaron. According to Mr. Friedman, the P (Priestly) source seems to be particularly interested in priests, their lineage, their being the only ones who are allowed to sacrifice to God, the importance of sacrifice to God, and the surprising absence of all stories wherein anyone not of their lineage made a sacrifice that was accepted by God (for instance the sacrifice of the sons of Adam is missing from this narrative). It also contains stories of how all those who attempted to make sacrifices to God without the agency of an Aaronid priest were killed by God.

The author goes on to show how in J and E we can find similar emphasis on one tribe of the Jews over the other. For instance, on pages 64-65 he shows how both the J and E documents attempt to give the birthright of Jacob to their own forefathers. He also shows how in the E version, Joseph is saved by his brother Ruben (the firstborn of Israel), while in the J version it is Judah who saves him. The author presents countless other proofs of these claims.

The JE texts magnify prophet Moses. They depict Aaron as having fashioned the golden calf. They also describe Aaron and his sister Meriam as having criticized Moses and having been chastised by God himself for this. They regularly have God saying "and Yahweh said unto Moses....." On the other hand, the P document (written by Aaronid priests), usually states: "and Yahweh said unto Moses and unto Aaron......" In this document, the staff Moses used to perform his miracles is called "Aaron's staff." In the P document Aaron is also named as the firstborn brother of Moses. Also, as mentioned previously, in the P text no mention is made of any sacrifices to God whatsoever until the last chapter of Exodus wherein we find the story of Aaron's sacrifice when he was consecrated as high priest. After that, all sacrifices are performed by Aaron and his sons. In other words, the author of P gives no precedence for sacrifice for anyone other than an Aaronid priest. There are even a couple of places in this document which denigrate Moses . They depicts Moses as sinning and Aaron suffering for Moses' sin.

Well, what about the rest of the Old Testament? Are the remaining books of the Old Testament known to have been preserved from change since the time of their first writing and truly to be the words of the claimed authors? No! Once again, Groliers encyclopedia tells us:

".....Joshua tells of a thorough conquest of Canaan, but Judges contains traditions of the Hebrew tribes in the period before the monarchy that reveal the conquest as partial. The books of Samuel are about the founding of the monarchy under Saul and David and contain a magnificent early source for the life of David, probably written about 961-22 BC. All the above books have been extensively edited by writers who shared the theology of the D source." (emphasis added).

Yale Professor Harold Bloom is the author of the book "Book Of J" His book goes to prove that the author of Pentateuch was not prophet Moses , rather, he believes that the Pentateuch, especially the oldest stories of Bible such as stories of Adam and Eve, Noah, Joseph and even Moses were the works of a woman, probably a descendant of King David in 10th century BC. Harold Bloom says that the "second-rate plagiarists" later formed scriptures out of her scripts.

Prof. Richard Friedman has also suggested that a woman contributed the OT which was later formally shaped as part of The Holy Bible. Though other scholars believe it was the work of a group of scholars and Jewish traditions. US NEWS & WORLD REPORT, Dec 10, 1990.

The famous 19th century French scholar, Alfred Loisy says

"To explain the divinity of the sources, the Papal Commission of Biblical Studies declared, in a memorable decree, that Moses had secretaries. The secretaries of Moses! A brilliant discovery, to be sure!"

"..[in the OT] too many sources, both oral and written, have joined together. And much of the tradition was added later: different hands have been at work at different periods combining and editing the various collections and books or parts of books. In many instances a later pen has glossed or interpreted the original text with his own additions, or tried to bring it up to date for his own age. Nowadays less and less attention is paid to the question of authenticity, which previously played a large part in Old Testament research. A new conception has arisen concerned with finding out what was the perpose behind these additions and with understanding the composition as such. Why did the redactor arrange the parts as we now know them - sometimes so unreconciled and so contradictory that the transitions and breaks are imediately recognizable?…"

The Old Testament, Its origins and Composition, by Kurt Kuhl, translated by C. T. M. Herriott, p. 299

Indeed, we can even find Jesus himself bearing witness in the Bible against the Jews that they had changed the commands and doctrines of God and substituted them with their own traditions. He says:

"Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees (learned Jews), which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to [his] father or [his] mother, [It is] a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. [Ye] hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:1-9)"

He also says: "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments. And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye s*****p the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? ... [Ye] fools and blind ... Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matthew 23:1-33)"

" (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Allah gives you glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, held in high honor in the world and the Hereafter, and of those brought near (unto Allah). He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous. She said: My Lord! How shall I have a son when no mortal has touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah creates what He will. if He decrees a thing, He says unto it only: Be! and it is. And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel. And will make him a messenger unto the children of Israel, (saying): I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, that I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what you eat and what you store in your houses. Surely! therein is a sign for you, if you are believers. And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so guard yourselves against Allah and obey me. Truely! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my allies in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's allies. We believe in Allah, and bear you witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). Our Lord! We believe in that which You have revealed and we follow him whom You have sent. So write us down among those who witness (to the truth). And they (the disbelievers) plotted, and Allah plotted (against them): and Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said: 'O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you of those who disbelieved, and I will make those who follow your above those who disbelieved till the Day of Resurrection, then unto Me is your return and I will judge between you in that in which you used to dispute. As for those who disbelieved, I shall punish them with a severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no champion [to save them]. And as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, Allah will pay them their reward in full. And Allah does not love the unjust. This is what We recite upon you of the verses and the Wise Reminder(the Qur'an). Verily the example of Jesus with Allah is as the example of Adam. He created him from dust then He said to him: 'Be!' and he was. This is the truth from your Lord, so be not of those who doubt. Then whosoever disputes with you after the knowledge has come unto you then say: Come, let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves, then we will pray solemnly [to Allah]and invoke the curse of Allah upon those who lie. Verily, this is the true narrative, and there is no god but Allah. And indeed Allah is the All-Mighty the All-Wise. Then if they turn away then surely, Allah is All-Aware of the corrupters. Say O people of the Scripture, come unto a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him. And that none of us take each-other as lords besides Allah. But if they turn away then say: Bear you witness that we have submitted (We are Muslims!). (The Noble Quran, 3:45-64)"

There is much more which could be said about these matters, however, I will leave it up to the interested student to consult Prof. Friedman's book and make up their own minds. Fourteen hundred years ago, back when it was a blasphemy of the highest order punishable by death and worse to dare allege that the books of the Bible were not 100% the inspired words of God, the Qur'an was sent down upon Muhammad by God Almighty with the claim that "the people of the Book" had changed the book of God. Muhammad   further affirmed that he was sent with the true religion of God which was sent down upon Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all). The Christians responded that Muslims were ignorant savages who had concocted their own religion by copying Christianity (just as the Jews before them had claimed that the Christians had plagiarized Judaism). I invite the reader to judge for themselves where the truth lies.

Is all of this restricted to the Old Testament? No! Christian scholars today call the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the "Synoptic" (One eyed) Gospels. This is because they all seem to have had access to a common source document they were working from when they wrote their Gospels. This source document is called 'Q'. Now they are beginning to recognize that the alleged authors are not the true authors (see sections 2.1, and 2.2). Similarly, countless verses of the Gospel of John, as well as other historical discrepancies, also go to show that John did not write the Gospel of John.

"Of the Jews are those who change words from their places and say: 'We hear (your words O Muhammad) and disobey; hear you as one who hears not' and 'give us concession' with a twist of their tongues and as a mockery of religion(Islam). But if only they had said: 'We hear and we obey' and 'Do make us understand' it would have been better for them and more upright. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except a few. (The Noble Quran, 4:46)"

"Do you covet that they will believe in you when [in fact] a party of them used to hear the Word of Allah then they would distort it knowingly after they had understood it? (The Noble Quran, 2:75)"

"Then woe to those who write the book (of Allah) with their own hands and then say: 'This is from Allah', to traffic with it for a miserable price. Woe to them for what their hands do write and for the gain they make thereby (The Noble Quran, 2:79)"

For more on this topic you may obtain any of the books mentioned above.

For More Proof on the Corruption of the Torah

You wouldnt want to forget to check out Corruption of the Torah

 

Who or what scribes are we talking about here? Did all scribes write the law of the lord iec? Are you now saying the “Law of the Lord” is corrupt, which were already written before Jeremiah and that Muslims wish to follow? These are questions you cannot answer truthfully.

 

When Jesus was on the earth, did he say the Law of the Lord was corrupt? No he did not, only Muhammad, why? Jesus himself said he came not to destroy the Law but to fulfill it!!! How could Jesus fulfill the Law of the Lord if corrupt? Rather then listen to what others are telling you, you should read and find out for yourself, be proactive!!! You are being brain-washed!!!  

 

Like in Jeremiah’s time it is the Muslims today with the lying pen who has handed down the Quran falsely.

Hello all,

I apologize for being a little bit absent.  I'm a summer camp director and this is hitting my busy season…  Come Thursday, I might not have time to post much for awhile.  Work will slow down a bit in September.

Again, thanks for all the responses.  I would like to continue the dialogue.

iec786, you shared a lot about what Muslims believe about the Christian Scriptures being corrupted.  So I get you're statement that "God most certainly has not preserved the Bible." That's your belief (not mine) but I suppose it is a fair reflection of the beliefs of most Muslims.  You also (seem) to affirm that the Qur'an has not been corrupted.  I'm not sure that you have actually said this but maybe you have (you do seem to like to talk more about what you believe about the Bible than what you believe about the Qur'an).

So, in the end you have said (essentially) that "God is capable of preserving His revelation, and He has preserved some of it."  He has preserved the Qur'an, but not his previous revelations.

So again, I ask my follow up questions from my initial post that have still not been answered:
1) Why? honeto suggests that God gave man the choice to preserve it and man has not.  Do you agree?
2) How do you know? I mean really, how do you know that you know that you know? Did God tell you this is what he did?  If so, where did he say that?  Or did a man tell you that this is what has happened? If the Qur'an told you that God allowed man to corrupt his revealing of himself, then how do you know that the part of the Qur'an that says that is true? This is part of the last question I asked you already.
3) How do you know which texts are true? If a text is only true if it has been uncorrupted, then where is the uncorrupted Qur'an?  Please tell me where I can go see the verifiably original manuscript for myself.  All I have ever seen has been copies.  But certainly if God allows man to corrupt his text, as you say you believe, then you must have the original Qur'an to know that it is not corrupted?  So, if it's location is a great secret that Muslims keep to themselves, I think it would be beneficial to let that secret out.  Otherwise I think you have a serious theological and epistemological question.  

You cannot say the following things and they all be true:
1) God allows man to corrupt his Scripture
2) God does not prevent man from corrupting his Scripture
3) Man corrupts God's Scripture
4) The Qur'an is God's Scripture
5) It is not corrupted because God has not allowed it

And finally you cannot say that it is not corrupted because man has not allowed it to be corrupted because you can't show me the original.  And neither you nor I have any reason to trust that man hasn't corrupted it because you an I both believe that man has tampered with God's word at some point.

I would be eager to hear your understanding of these things.


Hasan, your response really was helpful about the different ages and prophets.  I didn't mean to suggest that the idea of prophets in different ages was new to me, I simply met that it was new to me that that was what Muslims believe.  As a believer in the Christian Scriptures I believe that "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed the heir of all things through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power."

I know this idea is different from what Muslims believe, but the part about the prophets seems to be similar.  So thanks for explaining the Muslim view.  You wrote that once we were "through this issue" you would address my other questions.  I'm tracking with you so far on your explanation, so I'd be eager to hear you address my other questions.  My questions really haven't changed.  And I sort of restated them from my initial post in this thread to iec786, but I understand that you believe that Islam teaches that God has allowed/permitted man to corrupt his revelation of himself.  It would seem that you believe God is capable of preserving His word but has chosen not to for the sake of allowing man the opportunity to sin.  So I would still like to know how you know this?  Is the Qur'an exempt?  If so, how do you know?  If it's not, then how do you know it has not been corrupted?  I know you can't say that you know because God has chosen to keep it from corruption, because you already told me that even though God could do that he doesn't. So how do you know?

You tell Kish that you know the Bible is wrong because you read it and it sounds wrong.  I've read it a lot and it sounds right (but I also believe that God can preserve His word and has done that… which is something that you have made clear you don't believe).  So you read it and it sounds wrong and I read it and it sounds right.  I've read about half of my translated copy of the Qur'an (i'm working on it but have been real busy… will finish it though) and it doesn't sound right to me, yet it sounds right to you.  Who's right?  How do you know?  Here's the problem that it looks like to me you have. If you're right, you can't know that you're right.  If you're right, then you are right because the Christian Scriptures don't seem to be right to you.  You get to pass judgment and exercise authority over what is God's word and what isn't.  According to you God's former revelation is corrupted because they seem corrupted to you.  So you have authority to decide what is true and what isn't.  You cannot say that God has authority, because you say that man has responsibility in the matter.  You say that God has given man the responsibility to not sin by not messing up his Scriptures.  So the only way you can know that they are not messed up is if they don't seem or feel messed up.  Which is not a very good way to know something.  I can feel like it is not going to rain today because it feels sunny right now.  But my feeling of something doesn't make it true.

If, as you say, God does not preserve his revelation but allows man to preserve it, and if, as you say, man has (at least in some cases) corrupted God's text, then how do you know what has not been corrupted.  If it is based off of what you feel or think is true, then how do you know that your feelings are more accurate than mine?  Perhaps I read the Christian Scriptures better?  Perhaps I didn't, but why is your judgment the authority?
Hasan, thanks for sharing with me.  Your though-out answers are helpful and appreciated.


Kish, thanks for the welcome.  I will say that I don't know you enough to know that I agree with you or believe that same things that you do, but I always appreciate honest thinkers.  You made that statement that all the arguments you have heard from Muslims have been based on assumptions.  To be fair and open… I base a lot of my arguments off of assumptions as well.  These are my assumptions:
1) There is God
2) He is capable of revealing Himself
3) He has revealed Himself through the created order but all men suppress that truth
4) He has revealed Himself through the ages and ultimately/consummately though Jesus, the Christ… many men suppress that truth as well
5) He is capable of preserving His revelation and has done so
6) It should be no surprise if His revelation explains the world better than anything else

It is evident to me that Muslims believe at least those first two things.  This thread has been started with the intention of seeing what they believe about that revelation.  It seems to me (so far at least) that Muslim belief isn't quite consistent in this regard.  If consistent, then perhaps contradictory.  But perhaps I'll get some more answers to help me better understand.

Thanks all!

Edited by lucasan2294 - 13 May 2012 at 3:53pm