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truthnowcome
 
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Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2013 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Hi Caringheart,
 
I have been wondering for some time about concept of Soul and spirit and found that many have mixed up Nafz and Ruh. In Quran it is not mentioned anywhere that both are same. In fact if you analyse Quran, you will find a striking pattern in the use of these two words - Nafz and Ruh.
 
Nafz can be translated as Soul., and Ruh as Spirit.
 
Allah (SWT) is saying in Quran that he created us from one Nafz and spread us from there., and he is referring to our personality as Nafz in all the verses. It is the Nafz that is taken during sleep and death (some muslims still think its Ruh that is taken during death where as that verse doesnt contain the word Ruh at all). Its the Nafz that is put to trail, its the Nafz that is rewarded/punished in the hereafter.
 
It the Nafz we have to refine (from state of Ammara to Mutmainnah with which Allah SWT will be pleased and grant paradise, InshaAllah). Some muslims think that we have to refine our Ruh.. which is not an authentic concept as per Quran.
 
Spirit (Ruh) is blown in Adam and it will be blown in to every baby by an angel. This is not same as Nafz. In the hadith Arruh is mentioned means its referring to that same Ruh which belongs to Allah (SWT). People confuse here thinking that what is being blown is a personal Ruh of that person.. this concept is incorrect.
 
So if there are 10 people, they are different in the sense that each has their own Nafz., but they all have common Ruh which is from Allah (SWT)
 
Ruh is used in 3 contexts in Quran -
 
1) Min-ruhi (Ruh from Allah) that is blown in to humans;
2) Ruh ul Quddus /Ruh al Amin referring to Jibael (AS)
3) Ruh ullah - referrring to Isa (Jesus) (AS)
 
Ruh is not a physical element so rules of numbers do not apply to it.,  how all the above Ruhs are related is not in our knowledge. Allah SWT is saying in one verse that we are given very little knowledge about this Ruh.,
 
As far as my findings go this should be the correct understanding., A common misconception that Nafz and Ruh are one and the same is causing all this confusion.
 
Hope you can now see similarity between christianity concept and Islamic., will be glad to hear from you on this subject.,
 
Abd-Rahman.
 
As Salam mu alikum Shaik!

Just for some clarifications, I have been thought that Allah bread in the “soul” into Adam and when I ask the question; why the soul, I was told that the scholar inter change the translation. I also found many Sheiks used the word “soul’ and that confused me so I decided to do a research on it, it is then I recognize the difference between the Spirit (Nafz) and Soul (Ruh), and it is I who come up with the reasoning that each person have his own spirit (Ruh). The reason for that is because of the original creation in Heaven when Allah (S) created Adam and his descendant’s there before they were put on earth.

“When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): “Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?” They said: “Yea! We do testify!” (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: “Varily, we have been unaware of this”

  Or lest ye should say: “It was Our fathers before us may have taken false gods, but we are (their) descendants after them: wilt Thou then destroy us who took others as partnesrin worship along with Allah, and we were (merely their) decendants after them; will you then destroy us because of the deeds of men?”  Al-A'raf (The Heights) 7:172-173  

The Hadith conforms that it is the Ruh (Spirit) the angel brought from heaven to put in side the child after 6 weeks and not the soul (Nafz). So if when we were back there in the beginning what form were we Ruh (Spirit) or Nafz (soul)? Please explain.

Also it mentioned in the Qur’an:

Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah (Hezbullah). Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Success.” (Qur’an 58:22)

Please explain what is this spirit from Himself.

Br. zainool




Edited by truthnowcome - 28 March 2013 at 12:10am
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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Kish
 
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 28 March 2013 at 6:35am

What the Qur’ān Says About Christ

The angels announced good news from God to Mary. She would give birth to Jesus.—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:45.

He was born of God’s spirit, without a human father.—Al-Anbiyā’ [21]:91.

He was born holy (“faultless,” MMP).—Maryam [19]:19.

God made of him a sign for mankind and a mercy from Him. —Maryam [19]:21.

It was said of him that he was the Word of God and his Spirit.—Compare Āl ‘Imrān [3]:45; Al-Nisā’ [4]:171.

God appointed him as prophet and apostle.—Al-Nisā’ [4]:171; Maryam [19]:30.

God taught him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Injīl.Āl ‘Imrān [3]:48.

But like the Jews, Muslims on this forum still reject him and the Injil.



Edited by Kish - 28 March 2013 at 6:37am
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Rahman Shaik
 
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Quote Rahman Shaik Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2013 at 1:18am
Hi,
 
To avoid confusion lets follow this translation
 
Nafs=Soul ; Ruh=Spirit
 
Every one of us have own souls, but Ruh is one ie the ruh from Allah (min-ruhi). There is no plural of Ruh in Quran anywhere but plural of Nafs appears in many places.
 
As far as my findings go this is the correct concept, if you are interested I will post all those Ayaths through which I came to this conclusion. In Quran the use of Nafs and Ruh is very clear.
 
Now, in arabia even before revelation there is a general concept of Ruh.. that humans have ruh and it will still be there after death and it will be punished or rewarded.  So it is possible that some people mis-understood the quranic ayaths and they understood Nafs as Ruh and transmitted hadiths accordingly causing all this confusion.  This is why you find some hadiths that say Ruh is taken in sleep and death. But these are based on the Quranic ayath that clearly mentions it as Nafs. This is how the plural of Ruh ie arvahahum appears in some hadiths only but its not there anywhere in Quran. Also I found Muhammad (SAWS) did not say arvahahum as per early hadiths., instead he used the word nusama which is close to nafs (this hadith appears in Imam Malik's muwatta). But in later versions of same hadith its replaced with Arvahahum. So this is the reason of all this confusion. My understanding is this is an un-intentional replacement on part of transmitters of hadith due to prevalent concept of Ruh from pre-islamic days. I notice this pattern in other hadiths also concerning Nafs and Ruh.
 
We have Nafs (own) and Ruh (common). The purpose of Ruh is to deliver consciousness to us. This feeling of being present/conscious is coming to us because of Ruh only., its required for all our functions like hearing, listening and feeling. Just imagine this., we make lot of things - can we deliver this "feeling of I" to any device?  Allah also made us and we need this feeling of I, Allah delivered this through his Ruh. This Ruh is like the infinite 'I' which is enabling our Nafs to experience the feeling of limited "I" ie "I AM". As far is Ruh is concerned, thats the only function. This concept can be explained very nicely from a Quranic verse., again I will post it and its explanation only if you are interested.
 
Its thru our Nafs we are taking decisions and doing good or bad. So Nafs is accountable for our actions and not Ruh.
 
On the day of resurrection, as per Quran - Nafs will be joined with body and ofcourse Ruh also will be given (to make us conscious) and accountability will be done on Nafs only.
 
The hadith of Ruh being breathed in to baby in the womb is correct only as it says "The Ruh"  , there is no factory of Ruhs out there manufacturing individual Ruhs to be delivered to babies.  Its that same universal Ruh that is being breathed in to newly formed baby in the womb.
 
The Quranic Ayath saying Allah has taken progeny of Adam from his back doesnt mention either Ruh / Nafs .. so it cant be used to prove that we were Ruhs before creation. Our identity was, is and going to be "Nafs" only. Ruh is something that belongs to Allah (SWT) and we should not claim we are Ruh as it will violate a pillar of Tawhid (Tauhid al-asma- was-sifat). Ruh is something a quality or command of Allah., this is why death, penalty or reward is not mentioned anywhere in Qurah for Ruh.. so we should not say we are Ruh after death.
 
Hope this clarifies the matter.,
 
Brother I have done good amount of research on this topic, Alhmadulillah and discussed with many scholars and found most of them have mis-conception with regards to this and get confused when we probe them and stop the discussion quoting an Ayath that says ruh comes with the command of Allah and that we are given little knowledge., I agree but at the same time we should not hold a mis-conception about which Quran has given clear guidance.
 
I have all the relevent Ayaths and Hadiths to prove my point but I am not pasting as it will be too lengthy. If you need I can paste in a seperate post., InshaAllah.,
 
Alhmadulillah, this study also proves the accuracy and divine nature of Quran which is impossible if it was composed by a human being as we can see how the concept was mixed up in human works where as it was held perfect in the word of Allah (SWT).
 
Allah (SWT) know the best!
 
Walekum As-salam WR.
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Rahman Shaik
 
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Quote Rahman Shaik Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2013 at 1:24am
Brother who said we do not believe in Jesus (PBUH)?
 
A muslim is not a muslim unless he believes in Jesus and all other prophets before Muhammad (May peace be up on them all)...
 
Infact we believe Jesus (PBUH) exactly as he is described in Quran.
 
The jews did a mistake by rejecting Jesus (PBUH)
 
And it appears that Christians are repeating the same mistake by rejecting Muhammad (PBUH) even after seeing clear proofs from Quran.
 
What do you say?
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2013 at 11:59am
Originally posted by Rahman Shaik


even after seeing clear proofs from Quran.
 
What do you say?

Greetings Rahman Shaik,

What 'clear proofs from the qur'an'?
What are these clear proofs you speak of?
Thanks and salaam,
CH
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote Rahman Shaik Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2013 at 8:30pm
Greetings dear Caring Heart.,
 
Quran itself is a clear sign that Muhammad (PBUH) is Prophet of Allah (SWT)., our Creator.
 
Quran clearly explains the Truth about Jesus (PBUH) - that he is a Ruh, a command/word (amr) from Him, is sent by him for guidance of Jews.
 
Quran rejects the idea of God taking up Sons and that of Trinity.
 
Brother, why not read Quran entirely and not selectively, you will find Tawhid (Monotheism) is the central message of Allah (SWT) through Quran.

We can explain what is not God but we cant explain what God is as he is beyond our perception., so why debate that God has son, spirit etc while we do not know what is the reality of spirit as its a non-physical/non-material element which we can never comprehend with our physical and mental abilities. Spirit is used to refer to many things in Quran - not just Jesus (PBUH) and Gibrael (AS). For example - Humanity also have a spirit that is blown in to us (as I explained in my posts, the purpose of this is to deliver consciousness to us).  Even Quran is referred to as Spirit in one Verse. So now we have more than 3 spirits so its not logical to hold concept of Trinity.
 
I have read some Christian doctrine that says God is three (but One) - Father, Son and Holy spirit.  Also in the same book I read, this son is the "Word" which was with God (and it was God) and the spirit that is blown in to us through nostrils is nothing but Holy Spirit. So it claimed God is made up of these 3 elements but he is still One like different state of water (like liquid, gas, ice still makes it one).. Ok, I understood what is being said but I will accept it only if I can prove it to my sense whole heartedly.
 
As per Gospels Jesus (PBUH) promised of holy spirit coming after him and that it will be with us forever. So who is this Holy Spirit now? If it is already blown in to us as per the doctrine of Trinity. Confusion !  If the spirit that is blown in to us is not Holy spirit then that means there are two spirits other than Father and Son.. so now God is not Trinity but made up of 4 elements (can we call this Squarity?)... 
 
I liked your signature very much (Let us seek Truth together, Blessed be God forever)..  We have the Truth and Guidence from our Creator in the form of Quran infront of Us. Then what are we doing brother? Why not understand it and clarify our concept of God and Worship him as he is ordering us (Allah is saying he will only accept Islam).
 
Why this hatred towards prophets of God., Jews hated Jesus (PBUH) and rejected his message.  In the same way are you not hating Muhammad (PBUH) and rejecting his message (Quran) ?
 
May God guide all of us to Truth.
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2013 at 12:44pm

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Quran itself is a clear sign that Muhammad (PBUH) is Prophet of Allah (SWT)., our Creator.

 

However, The Holy Scriptures is very clear that Muhammad is NOT a prophet sent from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in which monotheism was practiced.

 

Deut. 18:18-20: “A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you [like Moses]; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him. However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.”

 

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Quran clearly explains the Truth about Jesus (PBUH) - that he is a Ruh, a command/word (amr) from Him, is sent by him for guidance of Jews.

 

Actually it does not. According to the Injil which came 600 years before the Quran, salvation is only through Jesus, a Truth not accepted by Muslims.

 

John 14:6, 7 Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Quran rejects the idea of God taking up Sons . . .

 

Which is why Allah of the Quran is different. In the Holy Scriptures Jehovah (YHWH) God is spoken of as having sons and being a father and that he alone should be worshiped.

 

Job 1:6 Now it came to be the day when the [SONS] of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah

Luke 3:38 [SON] of Adam, [SON] of God.

Matt. 6:9 “YOU must pray, then, this way:  Our [Father] in the heavens, let your name be sanctified

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Jews hated Jesus (PBUH) and rejected his message.  In the same way are you not hating Muhammad (PBUH) and rejecting his message (Quran) ?

If the Quran teaches something different from what was already declared to us in the Holy Scriptures we reject it. The Jews had no reason to reject Jesus message, even the Quran agrees.

Galatians 1:8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed.

 

 

 

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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2013 at 6:24pm
Hi Rahman,

Quote: Who was it that taught Islam and Quran to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)? It was none other than the Holy spirit who is referred in Quran as Ruh-ul-Quddus, Ruh-ul-Amin or Gibrael (AS). Allah has promissed Quran will be preserved until the day of judgement and you can see that this promise is upheld., Quran is un-altered even by a word from the day of inspiration till now. So why dont you believe that the promise of Jesus (PBUH) is fulfilled in the form of Quran?
I cant understand how through an isolated event like Pentecost does the word of Jesus (PBUH) can be considered to be fulfilled? There are many such incidents in history when holy spirit appeared to have descended on group of people.. I read about it long back and can give you references if you are interested.

Response: --- Gabriel was the angel messenger sent to Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, and the messenger to Mary, and the messenger to Muhammad, so as an angel he was ‘a holy spirit,’ but he was a created being like all angels. --- But ‘The Holy Spirit’ was the Spirit of God who was with God from the beginning, --- and the Spirit of God that ‘moved’ on the waters to bring life in the sea in Genesis 1:2.

As I said in the verses above, it was the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, the Comforter, that was in Jesus as He taught the disciples, --- and it was the Holy Spirit that Jesus said ‘would be in them’ on the Day of Pentecost.

--- It is stated plainly in John 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
--- The Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, dwelt with them in the Person of Jesus. And would be ‘In them’ on the Day of Pentecost, --- that came down in tongues of fire and rested on them.

This Holy Spirit is neither the breath or spirit of life (which as you say, is common to all), --- nor the soul that continues after death, nor Gabriel, who was an angel that could only be in one place at one time.

--- But what you call ‘an isolated incident’ --- the Day of Pentecost, was the launching of the Gospel going into all the world, as Jesus had said. --- Notice how PUBLIC this was in Acts 2:
1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
The Crowd’s Response
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.
7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?
8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”
12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

The Celebration of the Day of Pentecost was as important to the Jews as the Pilgrimage is to Muslims. --- In fact this is what the Bible Dictionary says:
Quote: The combined feast of Passover and Unleavened bread was one of the three feasts the Mosaic law enjoined to be attended by all male Jews who were physically able and ceremonially clean. The other two were ‘The Feast of Weeks, or Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles. These were known as the pilgrimage festivals, and on all of them special sacrifices were offered. --- End of quote.

This was why there were great crowds living temporarily in Jerusalem and were amazed at this outpouring of the Holy Spirit on men.


Placid

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