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truthnowcome
 
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Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 04 March 2013 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by Placid


And a verse says, “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.”
(More on the Comforter later)

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Placid, I am waiting! Bring it on!

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Quote Rahman Shaik Replybullet Posted: 05 March 2013 at 2:57am
Hi Caringheart,
 
I have been wondering for some time about concept of Soul and spirit and found that many have mixed up Nafz and Ruh. In Quran it is not mentioned anywhere that both are same. In fact if you analyse Quran, you will find a striking pattern in the use of these two words - Nafz and Ruh.
 
Nafz can be translated as Soul., and Ruh as Spirit.
 
Allah (SWT) is saying in Quran that he created us from one Nafz and spread us from there., and he is referring to our personality as Nafz in all the verses. It is the Nafz that is taken during sleep and death (some muslims still think its Ruh that is taken during death where as that verse doesnt contain the word Ruh at all). Its the Nafz that is put to trail, its the Nafz that is rewarded/punished in the hereafter.
 
It the Nafz we have to refine (from state of Ammara to Mutmainnah with which Allah SWT will be pleased and grant paradise, InshaAllah). Some muslims think that we have to refine our Ruh.. which is not an authentic concept as per Quran.
 
Spirit (Ruh) is blown in Adam and it will be blown in to every baby by an angel. This is not same as Nafz. In the hadith Arruh is mentioned means its referring to that same Ruh which belongs to Allah (SWT). People confuse here thinking that what is being blown is a personal Ruh of that person.. this concept is incorrect.
 
So if there are 10 people, they are different in the sense that each has their own Nafz., but they all have common Ruh which is from Allah (SWT)
 
Ruh is used in 3 contexts in Quran -
 
1) Min-ruhi (Ruh from Allah) that is blown in to humans;
2) Ruh ul Quddus /Ruh al Amin referring to Jibael (AS)
3) Ruh ullah - referrring to Isa (Jesus) (AS)
 
Ruh is not a physical element so rules of numbers do not apply to it.,  how all the above Ruhs are related is not in our knowledge. Allah SWT is saying in one verse that we are given very little knowledge about this Ruh.,
 
As far as my findings go this should be the correct understanding., A common misconception that Nafz and Ruh are one and the same is causing all this confusion.
 
Hope you can now see similarity between christianity concept and Islamic., will be glad to hear from you on this subject.,
 
Abd-Rahman.
 
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 05 March 2013 at 9:57am
Hi Truthnow,

The Comforter was the Holy Spirit that is explained in John, and we will start in John 13:
In 26-30, Jesus identified Judas Iscariot as His betrayer, and after he had gone out, Jesus said to the 11:
34 A new Commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but ye know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.
--- (The Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, dwelt with them in the Person of Jesus. --- The Promise was given, that when Jesus left, the Comforter, Holy Spirit, Spirit of truth, would indwell them.)

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
--- (It was to the Apostles that Jesus said, ‘The Holy Spirit would teach them all things, and bring all things to their remembrance.)

15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
--- (The Holy Spirit, which comes from God, would indwell them, and would testify of Jesus in them,--- and on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit, as Jesus had promised, --- and they went out from Jerusalem as ‘witnesses’ for Jesus.)

16:13 But when He (the Comforter), the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.

--- (So Jesus revealed all of the Gospel Message to the Apostles, and when He was no longer with them, the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, --- would take Jesus’ place, not only, “To be with them forever,” [14:16] and “Teaching them all things, and bringing all things to their remembrance,” [14:26], --- but, “He will guide you into all truth.” --- “He will not speak of Himself,” as though the Holy Spirit had a different message than Jesus, --- “He will show you things to come,” or ‘prophesy through you,’ [16:13].)

14 “HE SHALL GLORIFY ME.” --- That is what the Comforter, the Spirit of truth, does today through believing Christians, who allow the Holy Spirit to guide them. --- They “Glorify Jesus,” and continue the teaching of His word.

--- And this is how the Holy Spirit came on them on the Day of Pentecost, in Acts 2:
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
--- (You can read the effect it had on the Jews who were in Jerusalem for the celebration),

--- And here are the results of Peter’s preaching that followed, on that first day:
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


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Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 06 March 2013 at 6:28am
Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Hi Caringheart,
 
I have been wondering for some time about concept of Soul and spirit and found that many have mixed up Nafz and Ruh. In Quran it is not mentioned anywhere that both are same. In fact if you analyse Quran, you will find a striking pattern in the use of these two words - Nafz and Ruh.
 
Nafz can be translated as Soul., and Ruh as Spirit.
 
Allah (SWT) is saying in Quran that he created us from one Nafz and spread us from there., and he is referring to our personality as Nafz in all the verses. It is the Nafz that is taken during sleep and death (some muslims still think its Ruh that is taken during death where as that verse doesnt contain the word Ruh at all). Its the Nafz that is put to trail, its the Nafz that is rewarded/punished in the hereafter.
 
It the Nafz we have to refine (from state of Ammara to Mutmainnah with which Allah SWT will be pleased and grant paradise, InshaAllah). Some muslims think that we have to refine our Ruh.. which is not an authentic concept as per Quran.
 
Spirit (Ruh) is blown in Adam and it will be blown in to every baby by an angel. This is not same as Nafz. In the hadith Arruh is mentioned means its referring to that same Ruh which belongs to Allah (SWT). People confuse here thinking that what is being blown is a personal Ruh of that person.. this concept is incorrect.
 
So if there are 10 people, they are different in the sense that each has their own Nafz., but they all have common Ruh which is from Allah (SWT)
 
Ruh is used in 3 contexts in Quran -
 
1) Min-ruhi (Ruh from Allah) that is blown in to humans;
2) Ruh ul Quddus /Ruh al Amin referring to Jibael (AS)
3) Ruh ullah - referrring to Isa (Jesus) (AS)
 
Ruh is not a physical element so rules of numbers do not apply to it.,  how all the above Ruhs are related is not in our knowledge. Allah SWT is saying in one verse that we are given very little knowledge about this Ruh.,
 
As far as my findings go this should be the correct understanding., A common misconception that Nafz and Ruh are one and the same is causing all this confusion.
 
Hope you can now see similarity between christianity concept and Islamic., will be glad to hear from you on this subject.,
 
Abd-Rahman.
 
 
Best explanation so far. Very similar to Christian beliefs.
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 07 March 2013 at 11:03am
Hi Rahman,

Quote: I have been wondering for some time about concept of Soul and spirit and found that many have mixed up Nafz and Ruh. In Quran it is not mentioned anywhere that both are same. In fact if you analyse Quran, you will find a striking pattern in the use of these two words - Nafz and Ruh.
Nafz can be translated as Soul, and Ruh as Spirit.

Response: --- I believe this is the right understanding. While I am not familiar with the words, I believe that the spirit of life (Ruh) that is given in the womb, is with us through life and leaves us to return to God at physical death, which is the separation of body and spirit.

This is something that was written by Solomon, about death, in the Book of Ecclesiastes, 12:
5 For man goes to his eternal home,
And the mourners go about the streets.
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

If the Soul is the intellect, or ‘seat of the emotions’ that continues after death, --- then it says basically, that ‘our body returns to the earth,’ --- and the spirit ‘returns to God who gave it.’
--- Then our soul (Nafz) would go into a ‘place of holding’ where it will await the Judgment of God.

However, the Holy Spirit that was with Jesus or that ‘indwelt’ Him, --- is neither of the above, but is mentioned this way in Surah 2:
87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy Spirit, --- (and),
253 Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the Holy Spirit.

So this is the same Holy Spirit that was given to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, which empowered them to do the same miracles of healing and deliverance that Jesus did, before them.

Now Christians believe from the New Testament, that when they accept God’s plan of salvation, they can also receive this Holy Spirit from God, into their being, --- and the Spirit will guide them to the end of their lives in service to God. --- Then when physical death comes, --- the body returns to the earth, and the spirit of life (Ruh) returns to God who gave it, --- and the Holy Spirit would take the believing soul (Nafz) to heaven, as a ‘saved soul.’

Is this similar to your understanding?


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Quote Rahman Shaik Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2013 at 10:36am
Hi Placid,
 
Thanks for your response. Yes, Ruh is the spirit that is blown in to the womb. It is good to see that with this, you can see similarity in Christian concept.
 
It is the Nafz (soul) that is extracted in death [Quran 21:35,29:57,6:93] and it is the Nafz (soul) that will be joined with body on the day of resurrection [Quran 81:6] and it is the Nafz that will be put to trail and punished or rewarded as per its deeds in this world [Quran 50:21,10:30,81:14,82:5,14:51,20:15,6:93].
 
Also, until the day of resurrection, Nafz (soul) will be kept in what is known as Barzakh (meaning a divide, Quran 23:100). There also it will be tortured if its a sinful soul and will be given the good news of Paradise if its a pious soul. But this torture is like mental torture and not physical. Physical torture will happen after day of resurrection when soul is joined with body. Physical torture will be more than the initial mental torture. This is clearly explained in many verses of Quran.
 
I intend to answer all your questions, God willing [InshaAllah].
 
I will be commenting on your belief of receiving holyspirt and pentecost soon.
 
Before that its a better to clarify the function of this spirit from Allah (min-roohi) which is being blown in to each individual soul (Nafz).
 
Many confused that min-roohi is our soul where as its the Nafz that is our soul. Then what is the need of this min-roohi? Here also a lot of incorrect explanations given.
 
One attribute of Almighty Allah is that he is our sustainer. If our soul is like an electrical device, this spirit is like the electricity that is required for functioning of this electrical device.
 
I have studied religions and vairous belief systems including Mysticism which is actually a unique ideology but got spread in to all religions- for example like Sufism in Islam.  From my study, what I understood is that these Mystics, through their spiritual practices might be having an experience of this spirit which they explain as Fana (mystic union with God) and so claim divinity. They erred because they equated or assumed this spirit is same as God.
 
To explain this in a little bit scientific sense., our Nafz(soul) is receiving two inputs - 1)Signals from sense organs 2)Spirit. It is producing the output which is a consciousness that we are this body ("I AM THIS BODY" consciousness).
 
Now through some practices if you can suspend one input i.e signals from senses, then output from soul will be "I AM INFINITE".  This will be an extraordinary experience which cant be described in words. This misguided these people to think that they have experienced God and ultimately to the claim of divinity.
 
So from all this, we can come to an understanding that spirit is required for us to have body consciousness in this world. I do not have any Quranic verses to prove this and this is only my understanding after studying a lot on this topic.. because Science is still not able to explain how consciousness is being generated in brain and Spirit could be the answer for it. Since this is not a material thing, we will never be able to understand and explain it completely.
 
So, this spirit could well possibly be the "Universal consciousiness" that these mystics and a lot of other people following similar ideologies are claiming.
 
If spirit is not required for our functioning then its like we are self-sustainable without depending on Allah but this is not the case., he can pull that plug of electricity whenever he wants and we are fully at his mercy.
 
Hope this explanation clarifies the function of Nafz(soul), Ruh(Spirit) to all those who are confused on this topic., InshaAllah.
 
I will get back to you soon with a reply to your actual question on Holy spirit and Pentecost.,
 
Abd-Rahman.
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2013 at 4:40pm
Hi Abd-Rahman,   

Since you haven’t responded with your thoughts of the Holy Spirit and the Day of Pentecost, I thought I might give some info about Jesus and the Holy Spirit from the Gospels.

--- Starting with Luke 1:
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
--- (So Jesus was not a biological or literal Son of God, but was CALLED the Son of God.)

--- Notice: --- That it says that the Holy Spirit came on Mary and implanted the seed of life in her womb, and “Jesus was born of the virgin Mary.” --- It says the same in the Quran, including this verse that speaks of the Word from heaven that indwelt Jesus --- Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
So the Holy Spirit and the Word was with Jesus all of His life on earth.

--- Notice again, that Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, --- and in the verse above, He was also CALLED the Word --- or ‘A Word from God.’

We can find the first promise of the Day of Pentecost in John 14:
15 Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

--- The Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, dwelt with them in the Person of Jesus. And would be ‘In them’ on the Day of Pentecost.

25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

--- So the Holy Spirit would teach them spiritual things and give them recall of what Jesus taught them.

15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

--- The great witness to the world was on the Day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit ‘testified‘ through the disciples.

16:5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’
6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

--- The Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit would guide the Disciples into all truth. --- He would not speak anything different than what Jesus taught them, He would tell them things to come.
And when the Day of Pentecost was come they would glorify Jesus through the Holy Spirit that would indwell them.


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Quote Rahman Shaik Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2013 at 1:59am
Hi Placid,
 
Who was it that taught Islam and Quran to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)? It was none other than the Holy spirit who is referred in Quran as Ruh-ul-Quddus, Ruh-ul-Amin or Gibrael (AS). Allah has promissed Quran will be preserved until the day of judgement and you can see that this promise is upheld., Quran is un-altered even by a word from the day of inspiration till now. So why dont you believe that the promise of Jesus (PBUH) is fulfilled in the form of Quran?
 
I cant understand how through an isolated event like Pentecost does the word of Jesus (PBUH) can be considered to be fulfilled? There are many such incidents in history when holy spirit appeared to have descended on group of people.. I read about it long back and can give you references if you are interested.
 
So, can you please clarify what is your objection to Quran as the word of God when you are quoting from Quran to correlate and confirm the events in the gospels and dont see any contradictions there?
 
 
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