Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 20 Next >>
Author Message
Webber
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 09 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 128
Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 9:09am
Originally posted by Rational

You're waisting everyones time. Muslims can see you have your answer to your little challenge.. The ayeh is clear, it says they didn't crucify him and I asked you, how did he die then? But I know you won't answer. Sorry to burst your bubble but you haven't discovered anything [IMG]smileys/smiley36.gif" align="middle" /> Moving on...
 
Don't worry about my bubble. Of course I have an answer and it looks like you don't. Avoidance is as close as you're willing to get.
 
You are wrong, I will answer your question, problem is you won't answer mine. Actually I can answer it for you.
 
No. The Quran does not say, in 157, nor anywhere else that Jesus died at the hands of the Jews. Yes, the ayeh is very clear, the Jews did not kill Jesus. No mention of what anybody else did.
 
153 The People of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. But they had asked of Moses [even] greater than that and said, "Show us Allah outright," so the thunderbolt struck them for their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf [for worship] after clear evidences had come to them, and We pardoned that. And We gave Moses a clear authority.
 
Note; The people of the scripture..."they" asked Moses, "they" took the calf, after evidence came to "them"
 
154 And We raised over them the mount for [refusal of] their covenant; and We said to them, "Enter the gate bowing humbly", and We said to them, "Do not transgress on the sabbath", and We took from them a solemn covenant.
 
Raised over "them", refusal of "their" covenant, We said to "them" x2, We took from "them" a solemn covenant.
 
155 And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
 
We cursed "them" for breaking, "their" disbelief, "their" killing of the prophets, Allah has sealed "them", so "they" believe not.
 
156 And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander,
 
Again, cursed "them" for "their" slander.
 
We've already gone through the "theys" of 157. Allah is still talking about the same "they", the Jews since the time they were israelites.
 
158 Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
 
I like this ayat
 
159 And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.
 
And Jesus will be a witness against "them".
 
160 For wrongdoing on the part of the Jews, We made unlawful for them [certain] good foods which had been lawful to them, and for their averting from the way of Allah many [people],
 
We made unlawful for "them", for "their" averting from the way of Allah...
 
161 And [for] their taking of usury while they had been forbidden from it, and their consuming of the people's wealth unjustly. And we have prepared for the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.
 
"their" taking of usury, while "they" had been forbidden, "their" consuming, disbelievers amung "them"
 
See where this is going? All about the Jews. No gentiles, no romans, no kafir. This is all about the Jews and right in the middle of all this Jew talk, they didn't kill Jesus. 
 
Who hadithed the notion that the Jewish "they" became all non muslims?
 
 
 
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
IP IP Logged
Nur_Ilahi
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1031
Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 7:06pm
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. An-Nisa - 147.

Hi Webber,
As a Muslim, we have to have Faith or Iman in the Quran. Whatever was written in the Quran was from Allah The Creator of the whole universe - My Creator as well as yours. We have faith that Jesus was not killed, Jesus was not crucified because it is clearly stated in the Quran.
Also most importantly, we believe in a God - Allah who is Most Merciful - Ar-Raheem, Most Powerful - Allahuakbar! If He could create the furthest of the planet, the tiniest of an atom, the brightest of the star, He would not have any problem in saving His beloved Prophet Jesus Alaihissalam.
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
IP IP Logged
Nur_Ilahi
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1031
Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by Webber

See where this is going? All about the Jews. No gentiles, no romans, no kafir. This is all about the Jews and right in the middle of all this Jew talk, they didn't kill Jesus. 
Who hadithed the notion that the Jewish "they" became all non muslims?


Do you mean, if it were not the Jews, then someone else other than the Jews like you said - Gentiles, Roman or Kafirs did the killing?
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
IP IP Logged
Webber
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 09 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 128
Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 9:13pm
Hi Nur Ilahi,
I have no doubt you have faith in the Quran, and if you notice I am not questioning the Quran but rather questioning the understanding of the Quran.
 
And they, (the Jews) did not kill him, for certain. I agree, but that is all that is clearly stated in 157.
Here's the confusion...
 
Please confirm, all the "theys" I pointed out from 153 to 161 with the exception of 157 is clearly speaking of the Jews, correct?
 
Somehow, in 157 "they" becomes "anybody/nobody". Am I missing something in the translation? How can one make such a literary shift and not notice it?
 
"Another was made to resemble him to them" is a transliteration. I didn't know the NIV did the Quran too. Ouch
If that is what you read there's no wonder you have one mind on this topic.
 
they were made to think that they did
but it appeared so unto them
but it appeared to them so
but so it was made to appear to them
but he was made to appear to them like one crucified
 
"but he was made to appear to them like one crucified" (Sherali) imho is possibly the most accurate. This is also in agreement with the Gospels although I doubt many Christians have thought much about it.
 
Rational asked me, then how did he die?
 
That was His last miracle.
 
Matt: And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
Mark: And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed his last.
John:  he said, "It is finished"; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Luke: Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.
 
Nobody killed Jesus. He gave up His spirit to God, and God took Him.
Left them looking at a dead body thinking they did it.
 
Just try giving up your spirit to God some time. No worries, it's safe. You don't have the authority to do so. It won't happen, you'll still be here.
It's a miracle so don't feel bad either.
 
This replacement theory is a high school play. God wouldn't bother. If He decided to take Jesus, He would, why the game? Just so someone else could die? So they'd stop looking for Jesus? What difference would it make, He's ascended, look all you like.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
IP IP Logged
Reepicheep
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 06 November 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 298
Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2013 at 5:16am
Well, it appears that all muslim posters within this thread continue to believe that Deedat was a great muslim scholar. 
 
I thought I'd post some quotations I found on the web which show that, interestingly, Ahmadiyyas and Christians also like what Deedat wrote about the crucifixion:
 
 
The view of Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Promised Messiah and Mahdi, is that Jesus did not die during the Crucifixion, but survived the ordeal... Two modern Muslim scholars who have come out in support of the ‘swoon theory’ are Ahmed Deedat and Shabir Ally. Both these scholars do not accept the claims of the Ahmadiyyat Muslim community and Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, yet they both openly support the viewpoint that Jesus survived the Crucifixion, going against the prevalent orthodox Islamic belief.    Arif Khan, an Ahmadiyya muslim living in the UK
 
 
Ahmad Deedat stated in his lectures and books that Jesus was placed on the cross but did not die on it: He only fainted. Every one knows how difficult it is to change the religious beliefs of one person, especially if these beliefs are deeply rooted and have been handed down, generation after generation. For 16 centuries Muslims have denied that Jesus was placed on the cross. It is a known fact that because of the untiring efforts of Ahmad Deedat, millions of Muslims now believe that Jesus was placed on the cross. Thus because of the efforts of the one man, Ahmad Deedat, millions of Muslims have changed their traditional views as to what happened to Jesus. - Anonymous Christian
 
 
I agree with the above two quotations, and I cannot understand how anyone who has read Crucifiction or Crucifixion can say otherwise.  Since the muslims within this thread who continue to support Deedat do so (apparently) without having read his book, I think this discussion has gone about as far as it can.
 
I would like to remind all you muslim Deedat supporters that, on the day of judgement, you will have to explain to Allah WHY you were such strong Deedat supporters.  Are you prepared to answer that question?
IP IP Logged
Placid
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 November 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 231
Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2013 at 7:01am
(To continue from the post on page 6.)

In a footnote in Mr Pickthall’s translation, Maulana Muhammad Ali says these verses 2:72-73 refer to the martyrdom of Jesus Christ.   
In his commentary below, Maulana says the Arabic word used can mean, ‘striking,’ or ‘likening,’ --- or, ‘comparing,’ --- as Sher Ali renders it:

72 Sher Ali: And remember the time when you killed a person and differed among yourselves about it, and ALLAH, would bring to light what you were hiding.
73 ‘Then WE said, “Compare this incident with some other similar ones and you will discover the truth.” Thus does GOD give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.’
--- (Here is the death and resurrection mentioned together in 2:72 and 73.)

--- It was impossible to ‘strike the dead body’ of Jesus ‘with a piece of the heifer,’ that was reduced to ashes hundreds of years before, --- so it has to mean ‘make a comparison’ or ‘apply the incident’ of the sacrifice of Jesus for sin, to a comparable sacrifice in the time of Moses, to identify with the sacrifice of the ‘yellow heifer’. --- And we find such a sacrifice in Numbers 19:

1 Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,
2 “This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord has commanded, saying: ‘Speak to the children of Israel, that they bring you a red heifer without blemish, in which there is no defect and on which a yoke has never come.
3 You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, that he may take it outside the camp, and it shall be slaughtered before him;
4 and Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, and sprinkle some of its blood seven times directly in front of the tabernacle of meeting.
5 Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight: its hide, its flesh, its blood, and its offal shall be burned.
6 And the priest shall take cedar wood and hyssop and scarlet, and cast them into the midst of the fire burning the heifer.
7 Then the priest shall wash his clothes, he shall bathe in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp; the priest shall be unclean until evening.
8 And the one who burns it shall wash his clothes in water, bathe in water, and shall be unclean until evening.
9 Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin.
10 And the one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening. It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel and to the stranger who dwells among them.

--- (This was to become a regular practice for ‘purification from sin’ for many offenses, --- but notice that the perfect heifer was neither a calf nor a mature cow, and was comparable to the heifer that they chose for sacrifice in 2:71. And being 'unblemished,' it signifies the purity of the sacrifice.

I am sorry to talk about blood, but this was part of the Jewish religious worship, to provide a suitable sacrifice for their sin. --- Normally the blood was drained out and after it was offered as an unblemished sacrifice, it was taken and prepared for food for the priests, and the extra was shared with the poor or needy so the meat was not wasted. --- However, in a whole burnt offering it was consumed completely.

--- In this special sacrifice, It is first slaughtered and drained of blood, --- and the Priest, Eleazar, was to dip his finger in some of the blood, then sprinkle it seven times in the direction of the Tabernacle.
This is again symbolic, as the blood represents a covering, --- and the blood had to be drained out of the body before it could be used this way.


Placid

IP IP Logged
Nur_Ilahi
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1031
Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2013 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by Webber

I have no doubt you have faith in the Quran, and if you notice I am not questioning the Quran but rather questioning the understanding of the Quran.

Yes Webber, I have faith in the Quran, The Last Testament from Allah – The Creator of the whole universe - Our Creator – yours and mine - thru Prophet Muhammad, The last Prophet and the Saviour of all mankind.
Btw, The knowledge in the Quran is so vast that all the combined knowledge of us human beings is like a drop in the ocean. The more knowledge you know, the more you don't know.
Originally posted by Webber

Somehow, in 157 "they" becomes "anybody/nobody". Am I missing something in the translation? How can one make such a literary shift and not notice it?

They – could be anybody – he, she, it, Jews, Gentiles, Roman, kafir, Muslims. In this context who was the perpetrator – The Jews. They are the main culprit 2000 years ago until this present day. Full of mischief and arrogance beyond endurance.
Originally posted by Webber

"Another was made to resemble him to them" is a transliteration. I didn't know the NIV did the Quran too.
If that is what you read there's no wonder you have one mind on this topic.

We believe that Allah is Almighty – AllahuAkbar. He created everything in this whole wide universe with ease. Creating Adam without both parents, creating Eve without a mother, creating Jesus without a father, I have no doubts whatsoever that He is capable of creating someone to look like Jesus. Because He is Al-Aziz – The Mighty.
Originally posted by Webber

Rational asked me, then how did he die?   That was His last miracle.

The Christians must with all their might defend the death of Jesus with whatsoever means they have. You know why? Because without his death, there is no Christianity.
Originally posted by Webber

Nobody killed Jesus.

That is agreed!
Originally posted by Webber

He gave up His spirit to God, and God took Him.

50/50 because Allah took him up physically and spiritually
Originally posted by Webber

Left them looking at a dead body thinking they did it

“they” – The Jews?
Originally posted by Webber

Just try giving up your spirit to God some time. No worries, it's safe. You don't have the authority to do so. It won't happen, you'll still be here.
It's a miracle so don't feel bad either.

I have read stories of waliyullah (friends of Allah) who could appear and disappear with the permission of Allah. Being at two different places at one time. If your soul is pure, being one with the One, this is not impossible. More so with the Prophet of Allah.
Originally posted by Webber

This replacement theory is a high school play. God wouldn't bother. If He decided to take Jesus, He would, why the game? Just so someone else could die? So they'd stop looking for Jesus? What difference would it make, He's ascended, look all you like.

Then care to explain why the images of Jesus died on the cross could be found in most churches?
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
IP IP Logged
Nur_Ilahi
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1031
Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2013 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

I agree with the above two quotations, and I cannot understand how anyone who has read Crucifiction or Crucifixion can say otherwise. Since the muslims within this thread who continue to support Deedat do so (apparently) without having read his book, I think this discussion has gone about as far as it can.

Repicheep, I have read this book. From my understanding, the Jesus that is described in this book, is the lookalike. The Quran stated clearly that he was not crucified. And in his lectures, the late Ahmed Deedat had reassured that he believed what is stated in the Quran that Jesus was not crucified and not killed. Whatever the enemies of Islam who hate to see the Muslim stay united, think, it does not matter. Because Allah is Al-Baseer – All-Seeing, As-Samak-All Hearing. Al-Hakam – The Judge.
Originally posted by Reepicheep

I would like to remind all you muslim Deedat supporters that, on the day of judgement, you will have to explain to Allah WHY you were such strong Deedat supporters. Are you prepared to answer that question?

Yes we are prepared to answer that. That Ahmed Deedat (may Allah be pleased with him) had opened our eyes and taught us so much about the Bible. That the Bible is full of contraditions and errors, that Muhammad was prophecied in the Bible and many more.

Now Repicheep, in the day of judgement, are you prepared to answer Jesus that you believed in the Bible full of contradictions and errors , that you did not follow his true teachings of submitting to the One and Only Lord of the world?
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 20 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com