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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED Post Reply Post New Topic
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2013 at 12:47pm
Hi Webber,

Thanks for inviting more comments.
I had watched a video of Mr Deedat on the crucifixion and he said indeed that Jesus was on the cross, that He was taken down and put in the Sepulcher, --- and his subject was over the three days and three nights that Jesus was in the tomb. He was quite an interesting speaker, but he misquoted and misused the Scriptures.

I know that many have said that there is no blood sacrifices for atonement in the Quran, --- but there is something from the time of Moses that is very interesting. And these are some corresponding verses to Surah 4:153-157.

In both cases it speaks of a series of offenses of the Jews for which God commanded Moses to have the people offer a certain type of blood sacrifice. It begins with a trip down memory lane in Surah 2:
63. And (remember, O Children of Israel) when We made a covenant with you and caused the mount to tower above you, (saying): Hold fast that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein, that ye may ward off (evil).
64. Then, even after that, ye turned away, and if it had not been for the grace of Allah and His mercy ye had been among the losers.
65. And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath,
66. And We made it an example to their own and to succeeding generations, and an admonition to the God-fearing.’

67. ‘And when Moses said unto his people: Lo! Allah commandeth you that ye sacrifice a cow, they said: Dost thou make game of us? He answered: Allah forbid that I should be among the foolish!
68. They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith, Verily she is a cow neither with calf nor immature; (she is) between the two conditions; so do that which ye are commanded.
69. They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us of what colour she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a yellow cow (some versions say, ‘fawn coloured,’ or ‘golden coloured’). Bright is her colour, gladdening beholders.
70. They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. Lo! cows are much alike to us; and Lo! if Allah wills, we may be led aright.
71. (Moses) answered: ‘Lo! He saith: Verily she is a cow unyoked; she plougheth not the soil nor watereth the tilth; whole and without mark. They said: Now thou bringest the truth. So they sacrificed her, though almost they did not.’

71 Yusuf Ali: He said: "He says: A heifer not trained to till the soil or water the fields; sound and without blemish." They said: "Now hast thou brought the truth." Then they offered her in sacrifice, but not with good-will.

The interesting part is that Surah 2 is entitled “The Cow," which is taken from this ‘yellow heifer,’ in 67-71.

(More later)


Placid

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2013 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by Webber

Does anybody else see the irony of "conjecture" showing up in 4:157?
 
This is the thread for it, many good examples so far ;)


Yes.
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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2013 at 4:15pm
Caringheart wrote: Addressing the topic of this thread it seems clear to me that Mr Deedat does indeed contradict the teaching of both the Bible and the Qur'an.
 
Webber wrote: Does anybody else see the irony of "conjecture" showing up in 4:157 
 
Placid wrote: I had watched a video of Mr Deedat on the crucifixion and he said indeed that Jesus was on the cross
 
What I don't understand is how muslims can fail to see the obvious.  I mean, it's obvious to the four of us that Deedat is contradicting what is stated in the koran.  Why is it that so many muslims are incapable of seeing this contradiction  (the only muslims who have a reason to accept the booklet "Crucifixion or Cruci-fiction" as being true are Ahmadiyya muslims, who believe that Jesus was crucified on the cross, recovered, and moved to India where he died of old age).
 
Within this thread, we have iec786, honeto, and Nur Ilahi all recommending the book Crucifixion or Cruci-fiction.  My theory is that none of them have actually read the book, and what they are attracted to is the title (the title is meant to be offensive to Christians, so based upon that alone, many muslims like the book).
 
In the 11 years I have been posting on muslim forums, I can't recall EVER encountering a muslim poster who said anything negative about Deedat.  This thread is a case in point: surely, iec786, honeto, and Nur Ilahi must realize by now that they were wrong to sing the praises of Deedat.  Why don't they retract their comments about him?
 
*****************
 
I am hesitant to attribute anyone's misfortune to being a punishment sent by God, but in the case of Deedat I often wonder if that is the case.  In 1996,  Deedat was struck down by a stroke which left him unable to move, speak, or even swallow.  And, that's the condition he remained in until he died over 9 years later.  Perhaps this was Allah's way of giving Deedat the time to ponder the accuracy of his writings, which surely should be considered blasphemous by all muslims (other than Ahmadiyyas, of course).


Edited by Reepicheep - 19 January 2013 at 4:26pm
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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2013 at 11:59pm
Sixthly: What is the attitude of Shaykh Ahmed Deedat about the crucifixion and killing of the Messiah (peace be upon him)? There is no doubt in our minds that Shaykh Ahmed Deedat (may Allaah have mercy on him) denied that the Messiah was either crucified or killed. He did not go beyond what Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them [the resemblance of ‘Eesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)]…”[al-Nisa’ 4:157]

a) Shaykh Ahmed Deedat (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: I do not expect anyone to ask me about my belief as a Muslim with regard to the crucifixion; what I believe is what the Qur’aan says, as stated clearly in verse 157 of Soorat al-Nisa’. Mas’alat Salb al-Maseeh bayna al-Haqeeqah wa’l-Iftira’ (p. 88), Dar al-Fadeelah. It should be noted that the so-called Ali al-Jawhari, who is the Arabic translator of the book mentioned above – as well as others – subscribed to the theory that the Messiah lost consciousness, which is what the Qadianis believe. And he defended it fiercely in his footnotes to the book, and he criticized the Muslims for not adopting this view, and he thought that it did not contradict what Allaah says in the Qur’aan.

b) Shaykh Ahmed Deedat (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: They did not crucify him or kill him, but it seemed to them that they had done so, but they did not crucify or kill the Messiah, because it is certain that they did not kill him. This is how the Muslims understand the confusion about the crucifixion and killing of the Messiah, which is that they did not kill him but this is what they thought and believed that they had done. Jesus – God, man or myth? (p. 112).

c) And he (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The one who was crucified was another person who resembled him. The Gospel of Barnabas confirms the view which says that another person was killed instead of him on the cross. This is in accordance with our view, the Muslims. The confusion arose because they killed another person who resembled him. Jesus – God, man or myth? (p. 138) The Qadianis believe that the Messiah (peace be upon him) was crucified, whereas we find the text in the Book of Allaah states that he was not. This is what Shaykh Ahmed Deedat said. If he disagreed with them about the crucifixion then how could he agree with them about the death or killing of the Messiah?!

d) At the beginning of the shaykh’s debate with Floyd Clark, which was entitled “Was Christ Crucified?”, the Shaykh stated his sound belief in the Messiah (peace be upon him) by quoting the verses from Soorat al-Nisa’, then he began to use their evidence to establish proof against them and prove their beliefs false. In that debate he said: As for the Muslims, the matter is settled: the Messiah was not killed or crucified. This is a point on which the Muslims do not disagree, but the Christians’ belief is based on an assumption, but they did not kill him for sure. And he said: We will prove that the Messiah did not die on the cross as the Christians claim because he was not crucified at all. That is from their books, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Say (O Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), Produce your proof” [al-Baqarah 2:111]. He said: Whatever the case, he was not killed or crucified, that is according to the Book of Allaah.

e) At the beginning of his debate with Robert Douglas, which was entitled “Crucifixion of Christ – true or false?” the Shaykh (may Allaah have mercy on him) stated his belief in accordance with the Holy Qur’aan.

f) and he (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This means that these people – i.e., the Jews – believe that Jesus claimed to be a Prophet, and they killed him to get rid of him, but Allaah told them that they had not killed him or crucified him, rather it appeared so to them. They did not kill him or crucify him but it seemed to them that they had done so, and they thought that they had done so, but they did not kill or crucify the Messiah. And he said: “but they killed him not” [al-Nisa’ 4:157] because it is certain that they did not kill him. This is how the Muslims clarify the confusion surrounding the crucifixion and killing of the Messiah, which is that they did not crucify him or kill him, but this is what they thought that they had done. This is what we Muslims believe. “Was Jesus a man, a god or a myth?” (p. 111, 112).

g) And he (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Allaah says: “But Allaah raised him [‘Eesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself” [al-Nisa’ 4:158]. This means that the Messiah Jesus (peace be upon him) did not taste death, rather Allaah raised him up to Himself, and I believe that the Messiah will return before the Day of Resurrection. “Was Jesus a man, a god or a myth?” p. 118).

Conclusion: It is no wonder that Shaykh Ahmed Deedat (may Allaah have mercy on him) was accused by the kaafirs of being a Qadiani, as he views them all as being kaafirs. But what is strange is that jealous or ignorant people take some of the words of the shaykh and interpret them in the worst possible way, or at least they pick on phrases that are ambiguous. We have quoted many of his comments with regard to his religious beliefs, his attitude towards the Qadianis and his belief concerning the crucifixion of the Messiah (peace be upon him). Everyone who says otherwise, let him fear Allaah and realize that he is looking at ambiguous words and he should understand them in the light of other comments that are not ambiguous, or he should realize that the Shaykh may have said some things for the sake of argument or quoted some of his opponents’ statements so as to use them against them. We ask Allaah to have mercy on Shaykh Ahmed Deedat and to honour him and raise him in status. And Allaah knows best.

http://www.ahmed-deedat.net/wps/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=30
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2013 at 4:59am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

We ask Allaah to have mercy on Shaykh Ahmed Deedat and to honour him and raise him in status. And Allaah knows best.


Ameen Ya Rub Al'alameen.

جزاك الله خيرا

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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2013 at 5:04am
Originally posted by Reepicheep

In the 11 years I have been posting on muslim forums, I can't recall EVER encountering a muslim poster who said anything negative about Deedat.

In 11 years NOT EVEN ONE MUSLIM HAS EVER said anything negative about Deedat.

I wonder why. That's strange. Could it be? He never?! Really? He said that and no even one muslim? No really? But he didn't did he? No?

Reepicheep, you're a trouble maker I can tell.
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Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 20 January 2013 at 9:13pm

Al Nisa adds his own opinion to the Quran, is it still God’s Divine word?

A little challenge…

Find me a 4:157 that says Jesus didn’t die, if it says “They killed him not” don’t bother, I’m looking for; Jesus didn’t die, will accept “Jesus wasn’t killed”.  Keep the “they” out of it, and I’ll show you why.

Everybody does realize that Surah 4 is all about the Jews, right? It’s about the Jews before 157, it’s about the Jews after 157, so who gets to decide that 157 is all of a sudden not about the Jews?

Follow the logic of the context and the “they” in 157 is also about the Jews, therefore…

“They” boasted that they killed Jesus. Which Jew nailed Jesus to the cross, which Jew erected the cross, which Jew actually lifted a finger to do anything more than scream at the Romans to do it? None.

Sure looked like it. They told everyone they did. They stood around screaming for it, it happened, what more evidence would you want?

When you tell someone to do something and they do it, did you do it? You could argue in a kinds sorta way and justify it by the results, but did you actually do it? It’s quite simple… no.

There are still people that think the Jews killed Jesus, and the Jews don’t mind if they do.

Pure and simple, 157 says the Jews did not kill Jesus. Does it say He didn’t die? No, it doesn’t. Matter of fact Muslims have no idea what happened except that whatever did happen, the Jews didn’t do it.

The rest is conjecture.  Even Deedat done dat.

This is like two different arguments. The Christians say Jesus died on a cross, and the Muslims say the Jews didn’t do it? Nah, the Muslims try to say nobody did it. Proof?

I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2013 at 5:24am
Originally posted by Webber

Proof?

The arabic is very simple and clear in those versus. No need to over analyse.

‎"وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ"
"And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them."

Not only did they not kill him, they didn't even crucify him. He wasn't even on the cross. I'm asking you,

If he wasn't on the cross, what killed him? How did he die?

‎"بَل رَّ‌فَعَهُ اللَّـهُ إِلَيْهِ"
"Rather, Allah raised him to Himself"



Edited by Rational - 21 January 2013 at 5:36am
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