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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2012 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by Chrysalis

Originally posted by Matt Browne

I think religions should not get involved with trivial things such as music.

....Music can also inspire us to do great things.



If Religion is getting involved in something, that means its not trivial. Like you said, Music can inspire us to do things...

I am sure there is wisdom behind Islam discouraging certain types of music.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/09/opinion/the-sikh-temple-killers-music-of-hate.html?_r=1

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/11/21/news_pf/Floridian/Iraq__n__roll.shtml



Yes.  Good examples of bad music, and how the wrong music can have a bad influence.

What can be said about this?  Is this the prayer(chant) that is said five times a day?  What is its message?  What thought does it implant in the reciters mind?  Why do you think you are called to say it five times a day? 

1:1 (Asad) In the name of God, The Most Gracious, The Dispenser of Grace:
1:2 (Asad) All praise is due to God alone, the Sustainer of all the worlds,
1:3 (Asad) The Most Gracious, the Dispenser of Grace,
1:4 (Asad) Lord of the Day of Judgment.
1:5 (Asad) Thee alone do we worship; and unto Thee alone do we turn for aid.
1:6 (Asad) Guide us the straight way.

1:7 (Asad) The way of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, not of those who have been condemned [by Thee], nor of those who go astray!

What about the call to prayer?  The call to prayer sounds dangerously close to brain washing to me.  If you repeat something often enough to yourself you are apt to believe it. 
Mind control?  Do not think that you are far, and you are safe, from the actions of these other extremists.

Just my thoughts on the matter.  Something to be considered.

I have been bothered by this for some time but have said nothing.
I want to know what the Muslim interprets this prayer to mean.

You see... the prayer taught by Jesus... the Christian prayer, speaks only about themselves and God.  Jesus makes no mention of Himself.   It does not address other people but the relationship between the individual and God.  As far as how to treat others it aks forgiveness for trespasses and says to forgive those who trespass against... and be led not into temptation.  It says nothing about those who might lead us into temptation but places the responsibility between the individual and God.
Our Father, who art in heaven
Hallowed be Thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
and forgive us our trespasses
as we gorgive those who trespass against us
and lead us not into temptation
but deliver us from evil
Amen.

I bring this up on this thread only because it has been said that the Muslim's prayer is his  music.


Edited by Caringheart - 09 August 2012 at 1:01pm
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2012 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

I think religions should not get involved with trivial things such as music. Religions should be about spreading goodness and how people can get along with each other. Most forms of music have a powerful capability to improve the health of human beings. The healing effects are scientifically proven. Music can also inspire us to do great things.



Matt,
that is only if we can define what religion is.
For me, as a Muslim, it is a way of life that guide me about everything from the time I open my eyes in the morning to the time I go back to sleep, and every moment in between. It is not a 9-5 and weekend off thing, it is 24/7.
It guides me from as basic things like how to go to bathroom properly to how clean one's self before presenting him/herself in front of our Creator, God Almighty. To not waste what I may have in abundance. How to properly take care of this body given to me in a trust and not misusing it. How to nourish my body and nourish my soul properly by following rules that allow certain things and behaviors and not allow others.
What are my duties and obligations to others, my family, neighbor, relatives and beyond, not to mention my Creator.
In short it covers and provide guidance toward every aspect of life, and I am willingly and happily abiding by its guidelines. I do not think anyone can tell me that I should not do it. It should not bother anyone, just like I do not bother my next door neighbor who may do everything opposite to it. What we may do however is to exchange ideas, with no obligation and no forcing, not to mention not putting the others down. And be ready to answer the questions to whom we preach, similarly I expect the one who preaches me to have their answer to my questions ready!
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 09 August 2012 at 4:55pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2012 at 4:24pm

What can be said about this?  Is this the prayer(chant) that is said five times a day?  What is its message?  What thought does it implant in the reciters mind?  Why do you think you are called to say it five times a day?


You posted the translation of some of the verses we recite during prayer. Anything objectionable in its contents? The entire prayer is basically us asking for guidance and glorifying God. 

What about the call to prayer?  The call to prayer sounds dangerously close to brain washing to me.  If you repeat something often enough to yourself you are apt to believe it. 


Here are some things to consider:

- First of all, there is nothing objectionable in the contents of the Adhaan (call to prayer). It basically says God is Great, and come for prayers...

- Its not music.

- Majority of Muslims in this world (60-70% if not more) do not have Arabic for a mother tongue. Most of them don't even understand arabic. Even if the call to prayer was brain-washing, in order for these muslims to be brainwashed, they would need to understand what is being said.



You see... the prayer taught by Jesus... the Christian prayer, speaks only about themselves and God.  Jesus makes no mention of Himself.
 

And the prayers taught to us by Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) also speak about God. We seek blessings for other Prophets and our parents during prayer.



"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2012 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by Chrysalis




It is the last line
"1:7 (Asad) The way of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, not of those who have been condemned [by Thee], nor of those who go astray!"
Does this not refer to others besides self and God?

and the call to prayer
"Majority of Muslims in this world (60-70% if not more) do not have Arabic for a mother tongue. Most of them don't even understand arabic."
Wow, I did not know that.  I naturally would think that all persons living in the mid-east(arab) nations were Arabic speaking.  Either way, surely they know what the call to prayer says, no?

I bear witness that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah.
I bear witness that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah.
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2012 at 11:12am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
I see in your post above the proof that you are not here really to learn, but to offend others and put their belief down and that is a shame. I hope you seek guidance and not preach what you cannot practice.

As for the subject, let us first try to understand what one means by music. I have in my last post gave some input, but I guess more is needed.
Music may mean different things to different people depending their cultural background. For example, here in the West when people hear the Adhan (Muslim call for prayer) or Tilawah (recitation of the Quran) they consider it music. In an Islamic country people may not refer to the same a music. There they consider things like pop,rock and roll, rap, country songs as music.
So there is a difference in music, we need to be specific when we say which is allowed and which is not.
Praising God in a beautiful tone with a rhythm is part of Islam, you want to call it music others want to call it Praise, chant, Tilawah and so on. Of course God loves such act.
73:4 ... and recite the Qur'an in slow, measured rhythmic tones.
What you are describing as music (music unto the Lord), a Muslim like myself do it at least twenty times, a day or more when we recite Sura Faatiha in our daily five Salats.

Just listen to it, and tell me, isn't it a beautiful recital? music? and this brother's voice is just so beautiful, praise God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwtpNgFw5g

Note that there is no instrument used, you know why because instruments are used to enhance what one is saying. Here the power of word of God and its beauty need no support or enhancement from any instrument. The power of the word is in it purity without any additives.

I hope my explanation was of some help.
Hasan

I am sorry Hasan to hear that you take offense at me sharing something about myself. [IMG]smileys/smiley6.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Unhappy" />
"I do not come to be a stumbling block to anyone who may belong to God, and so, by all means, if you feel that music will lead you away from God then you should stay away from music. I only find that it draws me near... and because I only listen to music that is honoring to God."
I did specify what music I felt was acceptable and what was not.
"I only listen to music that is honoring to God."
"I believe it matters what kind of music we are talking about... what kind of music you listen to. There is much music in the world that is not helpful and leading away from God. But there is much music that worships and honors God... guiding the thoughts to God and Father.
If the music cleanses the soul it is good for the soul. If the music feeds the flesh it is death for the soul. - C. Lynn"
________________________________________"What you are describing as music (music unto the Lord), a Muslim like myself do it at least twenty times, a day or more when we recite Sura Faatiha in our daily five Salats. "I have never disputed this fact.
"Just listen to it, and tell me, isn't it a beautiful recital? music? and this brother's voice is just so beautiful, praise God.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwtpNgFw5g "
Thank you for reminding me... I never did get to a computer where I could listen to the link you sent me once before. I will try to do that today, as I think time and health will allow it today. [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />It is always best to send me links, or references, in private message. This way I do not lose track of them when I am at a computer where I can look at them. You did not need to explain yourself. I have understood what you say.[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />


Caringheart,
I think there is nothing wrong with music of praising God lifting your spirit. If you read my post, it depends what people describe as music. Like I have said, Adhan, and recitation of Quran is done in a balanced tones with rhythm, and is considered music by out siders, no instrument needed!
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 11 August 2012 at 11:14am
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2012 at 4:00am
Originally posted by Chrysalis

If Religion is getting involved in something, that means its not trivial. Like you said, Music can inspire us to do things... I am sure there is wisdom behind Islam discouraging certain types of music.



That depends on how you define the scope of your religion. Some Muslims refuse to use tooth brushes and tooth paste and use wood to clean their teeth just like prophet Muhammad did. Now is cleaning your teeth trivial or not? Should religion focus on this or should it focus on how 7 billion people on a small planet can get along with each other? And how everyone can live a decent life instead of poverty? The problem of strict orthodox Islam is that it tries to get involved into every minute of a devout Muslim's life and require obedience even if it doesn't make sense in the 21st century.

I totally agree with you that there is horrible music out there which is totally dumb, disgusting and mind-numbing. I discourage this and if Islam discourages that too, that's fine with me. Just out of curiosity, does Islam encourage or discourage Bach's Brandenburg concertos? What about the Beatles?




Edited by Matt Browne - 12 August 2012 at 4:01am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 13 August 2012 at 3:04pm
Its like asking can a basketball player text while playing?
There are too many things involved. Music artist are often treated as idols that creates a conflict of belief. Often, the contents of their music are objectionable, unknown. Those artists taken as idols, them and their lives are sometimes not good moral examples thus creating a conflict. How can you listen and admire someone for their music when they are at odds with your belief of what is good and what is bad. List is long but I hope the point is made. We can find all excuses and ways to please ourselves and keep progressing in it with time always taking a step further by turning unlawful into lawful, but a believer by heart and mind find ways to please his maker consistently while enjoying what is made lawful for him. Does it come at some price? Yes. Does it please everyone else? No. Does it make him look idle and unwilling to compromise? Yes. That's just a good believer.

My two cents.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 13 August 2012 at 3:25pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2012 at 3:43pm
No one ever answered my questions about David and the Zabur, and what it says in the Zabur...

Psalm 98, Psalm 100, and Psalm 147

"What does the Qur'an say, if anything, about David who wrote the zabur?"

Thanks.


Edited by Caringheart - 15 August 2012 at 3:44pm
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