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queenie
 
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Quote queenie Replybullet Topic: 786
    Posted: 08 September 2005 at 1:35pm
From when I was small I have always used the numbers 786 to represent "Bismillah-ar-rahma-narahaheem". its is often seen in muslim email addresses, muslim car number plates, written on top of exam papers before starting and there is even a muslim nasheed group called 786???. however I have nver questioned this till now.Is this just an asian thing? Does anybody know how these numbers represent bismillah-ar-rahma-naraheem?
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Quote ummyasmeen Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2005 at 8:36pm

as salaamu alaykum

 

I have known my pakistani/indian friends to do this custom but my other friends dont practice this

Umm yasmeen

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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2005 at 11:51pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

the number 786 comes from an old science that few people remember, but this science is spoken about in ahadith, when some jews tried to predict the number of years islam would last on earth using this science but there premise was wrong. basicly each letter of the alphabet has a numerical value the number 786 is the sum of the letters for bismillah ir rahmanir raheem or the fatiha i cant remeber which.
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote Dayem Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 1:16am

786 is a shorthand for bismillah hir rahmaneer rahim.Muslim here (in INDIA) use it on varius places, like in notebook, cars, or any place where there is a danger of getting ,u know, kinda disgrace.So 786 saves the trouble.

It is said that it was invented by a Hindu Raja,mind you.Each no. is supposed to have some value and when a word is added it forms a number.An intresting thing to note is that when numerical value of 'Hare Krishna'(name of a hindu god) is added, it also gives 786 as result.

Ulema here r undecided whether to use 786 or not, with some calling it as 'biddah' or innovation.

There are signs within you, why dont you reflect?
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2005 at 10:32am
Originally posted by Dayem

Ulema here r undecided whether to use 786 or not, with some calling it as 'biddah' or innovation.

One thing that is quite certain: It has no Islamic origin. Neither Quran nor Sunnah of Prophet. Secondly, we use "Bismillah" to humble our self to Allah. I think, this can be done by recitation, especially once the chances are that the written words would not get respected. Indeed Allah knows our intentions.

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Quote queenie Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2005 at 8:55am

interesting and different answers here.

Do any of you know this ahadith that rami has mentioned?

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Quote Abeer23 Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2005 at 10:55am

Hmm, I have heard of this science.  It's a bit dangerous if you ask me.  I've known some muslims that have gone astray getting too in to it.  But that's just my opinion.

Salaam

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Dayem
 
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Quote Dayem Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2005 at 12:23am

Originally posted by abeer

I have heard of this science
Science?What science?I dont think it has got any science in it.I know a bit how it works.Here is what I found frm Google:http://www.submission.org/miracle/786.html

Q 2. I never quite understood the idea behind the number "786". Is it possible for you to explain its significance at your earliest convenience? (Asim)

A 2. "786" is the total value of the letters of "Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim". In Arabic there are two methods of arranging letters. One method is the most common method known as the alphabetical method. Here we begin with Alif, ba, ta, tha etc. The other method is known as the Abjad method or ordinal method. In this method each letter has an arithmetic value assigned to it from one to one thousand. The letters are arranged in the following order: Abjad, Hawwaz, Hutti, Kalaman, Sa'fas, Qarshat, Sakhaz, Zazagh. This arrangement was done, most probably in the 3rd century of Hijrah during the 'Abbasid period, following other Semitic languages such as Phoenician, Aramaic, Hebrew, Syriac, Chaldean etc.

If you take the numeric values of all the letters of the Basmalah, according to the Abjad order, the total will be 786. In the Indian subcontinent the Abjad numerals became quite popular. Some people, mostly in India and Pakistan, use 786 as a substitute for Bismillah. They write this number to avoid writing the name of Allah or the Qur'anic ayah on ordinary papers. This tradition is not from the time of the Prophet -peace be upon him- or his Sahabah. It developed much later, perhaps during the later 'Abbasid period. We do not know of any reputable Imams or Jurists who used this number instead of the Bismillah.

Editor's note:

Earlier Muslim scholar Fakhreddin Ar-Razi, in his famous book et-Tafsir-ul Kabir, links the 19 letters of Basmalah with 19 guardians of Hell. Other scholars did not question the number of letters in Basmalah until after the discovery of the the mathematical miracle of the Quran.

To read about the history of the gematrical value of letters, Please  see our page at :

http://www.submission.org/miracle/gematrical.html

Here is a table explaining the above answer

Table 5. The 19 Arabic letters of the Basmalah and their
corresponding gematrical values. They all add to 786
.

Letter No. Arabic  English   Gematrical Value
1 Baa'   B 2
2 Siin  S 60
3 Miim M 40
4 'Alif A 1
5 Laam   L 30
6 Laam  L  30
7     Haa' H  5
8 'Alif   A  1
9 Laam L 30
10 Raa' R 200
11      H!aa' H 8
12 Miim   M     40
13 Nuun N 50
14 'Alif A   1
15 Laam  L 30
16 Raa' R 200
17      H!aa' H 8
18 Yaa' Y 10
19 Miim M   40
Total   786

See also Ahmad Deedat 's book (below) where he showed the 19 letters of Basmallah

For more about the mathematical Miracle of verse 1, sura 1, (Basmallah) check our file at; http://www.submission.org/beyond.html

For greater detail about the mathematical miracle, check our page at; http://www.submission.org/miracle/

There are signs within you, why dont you reflect?
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2005 at 6:23am
Bi imillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

I think what the indian scholars are talking about is whether using the number 786 for bismillah all the time is bidah not whether the science itself is bidah. This science predates Islam as i understand.

there is a specific incident which i have personaly read where the jews came upto rasul allah and said  your religion will not last more than so and so years he asked them why they said becouse of so and so letters at the begining of a particular surah they mentioned, which add up to i think it was 24 years . rasul allah said we also have this letter which added about 100 years according to there system, then he again said we also have this letter which added another few hundred years according to there system. the letters he was using were those at the begining of certain surah's like Alif Lam Ra.

i read this a long time ago and dont remember the exact details, sorry.

Submission.org is the site of a sect known as submitters there leader rashid khalifah claims to be "the messenger of the covenant" read the material writen under the section with this title.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2005 at 10:16am

Though I don't disagree with this part of the website that you quoted brother Dayem : "This tradition is not from the time of the Prophet -peace be upon him- or his Sahabah. It developed much later, perhaps during the later 'Abbasid period. We do not know of any reputable Imams or Jurists who used this number instead of the Bismillah. ", but kindly note that as bro rami has also pointed out, the site is not a reliable source especially once he forces his claim to justify the significance of number 19 in Quran and end up saying that it has some extra verses. Its just a word of caution to be carefull while consulting this source.

For bro rami,

Brother, how did you verify this numerical juglary (the one referenced by bro Dayem) is the same as the one you heard in the hadith?

Secondly, there are people who even claim "magic" to be some sort of science, would it justify its legitimacy from within Islam? I don't think so.

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