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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Tanakh vs. NT - Confirmation or Contradiction? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Reepicheep
 
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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2011 at 8:38am
Jack catholic wrote:  You have used dictionaries to claim...
 
You make an interesting observation.  I agree totally.
 
For words which appear in English language translations of the Bible, muslim posters within this forum claim the right to "pick and choose" definitions from the dictionary which support their claim, whether or not their interpretation makes sense or is supported by other evidence.  At the moment, I am involved in discussions here which hinge on what the words chosen, contradiction, gospel, and judgement mean. 
 
Well, let me try this technique using a verse from the Koran and see what I come up with:
 
Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).   Surah 2:7
 
The dictionary defines seal as "a marine carnivore of the suborder Pinnipedia".  So, using this definition, an alternate translation of Surah 2:7 is:
 
Allah hath set a marine carnivore on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur). Surah 2:7
 
Is my translation valid?  Probably not.  But it seems that muslims in this forum do the exact same thing every day in their postings.  Kind of hard to hold serious discussions with people like that.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2011 at 11:23am
Jack and Reepicheep,
care to address my post above, the real issue?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 03 November 2011 at 9:40pm

Dear Hasan,

 

I have posted plenty of Multi-source evidence that the Holy Spirit is truly the presence and power of Allah in a post that as of this writing has not cleared being posted on the forum.  Your reason for asserting that the Holy Spirit is not Allah is that it is under Allah’s command.  But you and I have already gone over this perspective.  Remember?  I might say that my thumb, tongue, foot, or even eye are mine, yet if I disconnect them from “me,” then they will cease to exist.  This means that in order for them to exist, they must be more than separate possessions.  They are, in fact, “me,” as long as they are connected.  And yet, they are also under my command.  My “presence” is, in fact, not a thing, but is “me.”  My presence cannot be any other thing accept “me” in a particular place.  Yet my presence is also under my command.  It is a part of me, while simultaneously under my command.  Therefore, since Judaism recognizes the Holy Spirit as the “presence of God,” they must also admit that the Holy Spirit is Allah in a particular time and place while being simultaneously under Allah’s command.  The Jews of Jesus’ time did not claim that the Holy Spirit was a separate being, since it was not a question for them.  But when Jesus’s Apostles pointed out what Jesus said that it truly was, the Jews realized that they had better do something to end the flow of Jewish believers into Christianity.  That is why there is some discussion in the Talmud about the Holy Spirit being a created being. That issue is only a discussion recorded in the Talmud, but is not a proclamation. Yet there is a great deal more evidence in both the Tanakh and in the Talmud that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than the Presence and Power of Allah. 

As far as 1 Sam 10:6 is concerned, the verse simply gives credence to Christian teaching about the Holy Spirit.  One of the things the Holy Spirit does is change those whose life it enters.  This means the Holy Spirit, the presence of Allah, changes lives.  This is what Jesus taught.

 

As far as 1 Sam 11:6 is concerned, there is something called righteous anger, not the evil kind based in selfishness, which give a man the energy and focus to do something out of the ordinary with the goal of correcting a wrong.  In this case, God’s Holy Spirit came upon Saul, who responded to the situation in a God inspired way.  The issue was that Israel was disconnected.  So if one of the tribes was in trouble, the others might not come to its aid.  Saul cut up his oxen and sent one piece to each of the tribes to show them what would happen to Israel if they did not stand together.  They would be divided to death, just as his oxen had been.  Israel responded.  This was according to the will of God.  The  Holy Spirit filled Saul with the desire to correct a wrong according to the will of God.  This is not evidence of a separate and inferior being, but of Allah coming over a man and conforming the man to His very will.  This does not disprove the Holy Trinity.  Sorry.

I see you have posted a verse, 1 Sam 19:9, which has caused me to question all that I’ve always known about Allah and what he does and why.  Allah sends his Holy Spirit  to change people’s lives.  I never thought that Allah would send an evil spirit.  Yet there it is.  I’ve had to search out what the Church says about this.  I certainly have no response on my own.

You posted 1 Sam 19:9

But an evil spirit from the LORD came on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the lyre,

But let us look at other verses regarding Saul and spirits sent by Allah.

1 Sam 16:14

14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evild]'>[d] spirit from the LORD tormented him.

 

I’ll explain this now in light of all three verses.  I’m sure that you already know what my response will be.  But since you asked me, I’ll go ahead and answer.  Allah was with King Saul, and Allah’s presence gave him strength and courage to function as a king should.  But eventually Saul chose to disobey Allah, and in so doing, Saul rejected Allah.  Allah, in turn, rejected Saul and sent Samuel to anoint another person to be the future king of Israel.   That is where 1 Sam 16:14 comes in.  It tells us that the Spirit of the Lord (the presence of Allah) left Saul, and an evil spirit came to fill in the empty place where the “Spirit of the Lord” once resided.  Allah created this spirit that was evil, as Allah created all things.  The Holy Bible tells us that Allah did not create spirits to be evil, but that some spirits chose to reject Allah and so became evil.  The spirit that came to Saul after the Holy Spirit left him took on the roll of being a tormentor to Saul.  This was Saul’s punishment for rejecting Allah.  That the spirit tormented Saul, Saul and others saw it to be evil, as Allah’s Holy Spirit never tormented Saul.  Now, I’d like to point out one more thing from 1 Sam 16:14:  the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of the Lord, and the evil spirit is called a spirit from the Lord.  The significance of the term “Spirit of the Lord” means that the Spirit is the Lord’s very spirit, or “presence,” whereas the spirit “from means that the spirit simply comes from the Lord in some way, most likely in that Allah created it, though it has since become evil.  The following verse, 1 Sam 18:12, verifies that the Spirit of the Lord is actually the presence of the Lord:

1 Sam 18:12

12 Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with David but had departed from Saul.  

Notice that verse14 of 1 Sam 16 says:  “...the Spirit of the Lord had departed...” and 1 Sam 18:12 says, “...the Lord...had departed from Saul.”  The wording and language is identical between the two verses, and indicates that the Spirit of the Lord (Allah) is identical to “the Lord (Allah).”  You see, the verse you shared actually verifies what Christians and Jews believe. 

Now let’s look at the verses from the Holy Qur’an which you have posted.  If you replace the words, “holy spirit” with the words, “Presence of Allah,” those verses will still mean the same thing.  The meaning about God’s participation as those verses relate will not be changed.  If Muhammad truly understood the teachings of Jesus, He would have responded to the call of Allah by becoming Christian, not by starting a new religion that would eventually come to persecute Christians and Jews. 

Saying that the Holy Spirit is Allah is not saying that there are more than one Allah, just that Allah has manifested himself in more than one person.  No matter how many persons He has manifested himself as, He is the same Allah that is only one Allah.

Allah’s blessings,

 

Jack Catholic

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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 03 November 2011 at 9:51pm
Dear Reepicheep,
 
Well said.  So you have noticed the same thing, too, huh?
 
Patience, my friend.  You seem to have a lot of it.  We'll use patience with some of these shinanegans (excuse my Irish idioms).  I'm sure Isla will come around as soon as he has exausted all of his creativity with language.
 
By the way, have you noticed he has about used up his creative terminology that tries to put his opposition down to a subservient class of poster in relation to himself?  I'm starting to see him repeat his verbage, and it no longer shocks me.  It's getting as old as dust.
 
Keep up your intelligent observations.  Great work!
 
May God bless you always,
 
Jack Catholic
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2011 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by Jack

Here's what you've been waiting for.  I've had to cut out your "entertainment fluff and summarized your few week points below in bold type.  There were a few lines of yours that I posted to show how week your "intelligent posts" really are.  They have doctors who can treat people with your kind of logic.  Well, here is my long awaited response.  Have fun with it.LOL


Well, if your continued poor spelling (weak vs. week Wink) is any indication, then I am going to have lots of fun!  Big%20smile

Originally posted by Jack

(IslamisPeace, it is so not necessary for the Tanakh to explain the Holy Trinity for the Holy Trinity to be present in the Tanakh.  This sudden requirement of yours is a pathetically irrelevant attempt to make me look like the buffoon that you keep proving yourself to be.LOL


Oh how convenient!  It is "not necessary for the Tanakh to explain the [trinity]..."  Blah, blah, blah.  Who says it is "not necessary"?  This sounds like Christian special pleading again.  You realize that since the trinity is not thoroughly explained in the Tanakh, it strengthens the argument that the trinity is a new concept.  To try to weasel your way out of this difficultly, you make the pathetic excuse that "it is not necessary for the Tanakh to explain the [trinity]".  Again, who says?  You and the Church?  Clap

Originally posted by Jack

I have ignored your pathetic attempts... to answer the question.  (And this, my open-eyed, intelligent discussion buddy, is how you deal with evidence you don’t want to hear.)


Well done, Jack.  You can't even quote me correctly so that you can try to make a straw man argument.  If you will closely read what I actually wrote, I said "I have ignored your pathetic attempts to use mostly the NT in an effort to answer the question because it is irrelevant."  The topic is whether the Tanakh agrees with the NT.  In order to prove that both are in agreement regarding the trinity, you would have to show verses from the Tanakh (not the NT) which point conclusively to a triune God.  Thus far, you have failed to that. 

Originally posted by Jack

Jack:  I researched out Jewish beliefs about the Holy Spirit and found that Jews call the Holy Spirit "Shekhinah," which means "a manifestation of the divine presence."  I don't see anything in this definition that even resembles a created Spirit.


LOL Oh please.  The only "research" you did was to to find a "Yahoo! Answers" page in which a Christian tried to play Rabbi (not exactly a Jewish source) and selectively quoted from the Talmud (as Christians typically do). 

Your ignorance on the subject is shocking.  The Jews do not call the Holy Spirit "Shekinah".  That just is not true.  Even though I have already provided the evidence from authentic Jewish sources, here is some more evidence for your reading pleasure.

According to the Jewish website "Turn to Torah":

"There are two different “spirits” referred to in the scriptures that you list. The first is the Ruach Elohim (רוח אלוהים) or Ruach HaKodesh (רוח הקודש). The second is the Shekinah" [1].

Here, we see that there is a clear distinction between the two.  The first "spirit" is "Ruach HaKodesh" which is literally translated as the "Holy Spirit".  The second is the "Shekinah".  Continuing with its discussion of the two "spirits", "Turn to Torah" observes:

"Ruach (רוּחַ) can mean wind, spirit, breath, or mind. The point that you are missing here is that the Ruach Elohim (רוח אלוהים) or Ruach HaKodesh (רוח הקודש) is a creation. Since the three gods of the trinity are supposedly co-eternal, then the Ruach Elohim or Ruach HaKodesh cannot be part of the trinity. The Ruach Elohim or Ruach HaKodesh is a wind" [Ibid].

Here, we learn from a Jewish source that the "Ruach HaKodesh" was created.  As such, it cannot be the same "Holy Spirit" mentioned in the NT.  Interestingly enough, the early Church father Origen also believed that the "Holy Spirit" was created.  Origen wrote in his "Commentary on John":

"We therefore, as the more pious and the truer course, admit that all things were made by the Logos, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was made by the Father through Christ" ("The Ante-Nicene Fathers", Richardson & Pick, p. 328).

So, it appears that some early Christians did not believe that the Holy Spirit was uncreated.  Yet, they still tried to justify the trinitarian view!  Shocked

Anyway, I digress.  Let's get back to "Turn to Torah" and its explanation of the Holy Spirit and the Shekinah.  It states:

"It [Ruach HaKodesh] is often manifested through noise and light.
Ezekiel 3:12: And a wind (רוּחַ) lifted me up, and I heard behind me the sound of a great uproar: "Blessed is the glory of the Lord from His place."

The Ruach Elohim or Ruach HaKodesh is a means of Hashem interacting with humanity.

Job 33:4: The spirit of God (רֽוּחַ־אֵל) made me, and the breath of the Almighty keeps me alive.

This is a reference back to Genesis 2:7: And the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul.

Are missionaries saying that the Christian holy spirit is now the creator and not God the father?

The Ruach Elohim or Ruach HaKodesh is not part of a trinity" [Ibid].   

All of this confirms what I claimed before, which is that the Holy Spirit is synonymous with "wind".  And since Amos 4:13 stated that God "bore the wind", it can be deduced that the wind/spirit was created.  Moving on to the "Shekinah", "Turn to Torah" states:

"Now let’s look at the second spirit – the Shekinah (שכינה).

Numbers 11:26: Now two men remained in the camp; the name of one was Eldad and the name of the second was Medad, and the spirit (הָרוּחַ) rested upon them. They were among those written, but they did not go out to the tent, but prophesied in the camp.

Judges 3:10: And the spirit of the Lord (רֽוּחַ־יהוה) came upon him, and he judged Israel; and he went out to war, and the Lord delivered into his hands Cushan-rishathaim the king of Aram; and his hand prevailed upon Cushan-rishathaim.

I Samuel 10:6: And the spirit of the Lord (רוּחַ יהוה) will pass over you, and you will prophesy with them, and you will be turned into another man.

The Shekinah (שכינה) is one aspect of Hashem but is NOT a separate god or person. The Shekinah (שכינה) is another Name for Hashem. This Name refers to a presence of Hashem and the spirit that gives prophecy. The Shekinah is not a third part of a trinity" [Ibid.].

So, the Shekinah refers to the "presence" of God.  It is an "attribute" and not a separate person (as in the trinity).  To further confirm this definition, let us look at what the Encyclopedia Judaica states.  Under the heading of "Shekinah", it states:

"SHEKHINAH (Heb. שְׁכִינָה; lit. "dwelling," "resting"), or Divine Presence, refers most often in rabbinic literature to the numinous immanence of God in the world. The Shekhinah is God viewed in spatio-temporal terms as a presence, particularly in a this-worldly context: when He sanctifies a place, an object, an individual, or a whole people – a revelation of the holy in the midst of the profane. Sometimes, however, it is used simply as an alternative way of referring to God himself...The term, though seemingly hypostatized in certain passages, must be viewed purely figuratively and not as representing a separable aspect of God or as being in any sense a part of the Godhead. The latter notion is totally alien to the strict monotheism of rabbinic Judaism for which the unity of the divine Essence is a basic premise. The references to Shekhinah which are open to misinterpretation, e.g., those which talk of God placing His Shekhinah in the midst of Israel (cf. Sif. Num. 94), or where the Shekhinah is pictured as talking to God (Mid. Prov. to 22:28), are the product of homiletic license" [3].

We can see here that the apparent similarities between the two are not always clear.  What is more interesting is that some Jewish sages believed that the Shekinah was a created light (as opposed to the Holy Spirit which was synonymous with wind)!  Mentioning the great medieval Jewish scholar, Maimonides, the Encyclopedia Judaica states:

"Maimonides accepts Saadiah's view that the Shekhinah is a created light, identified with glory. He too associates the Shekhinah with prophecy, explaining that it is the Shekhinah which appears to the prophet in his vision (Guide of the Perplexed, 1:21)" [Ibid.]    

Also, the Encyclopedia Judaica expounds on the difference between "Holy Spirit" and "Shekinah".  Under the heading of "Holy Spirit", it states:

"There are a number of texts in which the two terms Ru'aḥ ha-Kodesh and *Shekhinah are found interchanged in different versions (cf. Pes. 117b; Shab. 30b; and TJ, Suk. 5:1, 55a; see also Tosef. , Sot. 13:3f.; Sot. 48b; Sanh. 11a). This interchange may be due to the fact that though Ru'aḥ ha-Kodesh and Shekhinah are conceptually distinct, they are identical over a certain range and are both sometimes used as straight synonyms for God. G.F. Moore, however, considers the exchange of terms to be mainly the result of copyists' errors (Judaism, 1 (1927), 437)" [4].

All of this serves as conclusive evidence of the created nature of the Holy Spirit and its distinctness from the Shekinah.  The similarities between the two may be due to "copyist errors" (op. cit. Encyclopedia Judiaca), whereas the differences prove that they are actually separate concepts.    

Originally posted by Jack

(Did I say that the Jewish Encyclopedia was not a “Jewish” source?Confused  Grabbing at smoke again, are we, IslamisnotPeace?Big%20smile)

You asked the question "[w]here did you say you got you rediculous (sic) data again?" while claiming that your information was straight from Jewish sources (rabbinical literature and the Talmud) when it was actually based on a "Yahoo! Answers" page in which a Christian attempted to prove the samething you are trying to prove.  On the other hand, I utilized an actual Jewish source (which also quotes from the Talmud) which states the exact opposite of what you are claiming. 

Originally posted by Jack

So, IslmisPeace, you are saying that the Holy Spirit is synonymous with the wind per the first chapters of Genesis and throughout the Tanakh.
 

I am not saying that.  Jewish sources say that, as I showed.  Big%20smile

Originally posted by Jack

The early scribes (later called rabbis) added Shekinah in biblical verses where the verb shakhan is used in relation to God. Shakhan literally means "to dwell" or "to live with", or even "to pitch one's tent." The word Shekinah means the God-Who-Dwells-Within.

Not quite.  The word "Shekinah" actually just means "dwelling" or "resting" [Encyclopedia Judaica].  It does not mean "the God who dwells within".   

But I just noticed something, Jack.  The above statement is clearly not your own words.  They are just too sophisticated for you.  So I did a Google search and found that your "research" is actually just shamefully copied from a random website with Christian undertones.  The very fact that you simply refuse to use Jewish sources to gain an understanding of this subject belies your bias.  Your statement "[t]he early scribes (later called rabbis)..." is directly copied from the internet, probably from one of the following websites:

http://shekinah.elysiumgates.com/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060622173735AA0XJ7X

Am I right?  Come clean, Jack!  LOL

Now don't think that I am not going to respond to this plagiarized material.  I just wanted to embarrass you and expose you as the biased, shabby researcher that you are.  Anyway, let's continue...

Originally posted by Jack

The Shekinah eventually became an interchangeable term with the Holy Spirit in Judaism, which was eventually carried into Christianity through Jesus to his Apostles.

You (and your copied source) have yet to prove this.  On the other hand, I have shown above that the two concepts are not interchangeable.  So far, you have made only baseless, unproven statements.  Well done! 

The Shekinah is often pictured as a bird or dove.

Wrong!  According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud actually equates the Shekinah with light (see the Encyclopedia Judaica reference as well) while the Holy Spirit was sometimes equated with a dove:

"...the Shekinah appeared as physical light; so that Targ. to Num. vi. 2 says, "Yhwh shall cause His Shekinah to shine for thee."  A Gentile asked the patriarch Gamaliel (c. 100): "Thou sayest that wherever ten are gathered together the Shekinah appears; how many are there?" Gamaliel answered: "As the sun, which is but one of the countless servants of God, giveth light to all the world, so in a much greater degree doth the Shekinah" (Sanh. 39a). [...]

The Shekinah tinkled like a bell (Soṭah 9b), while the Holy Spirit also manifested itself to human senses in light and sound. The Holy Spirit had the form of a dove, and the Shekinah had wings" [5].

Once again, Jewish sources contradict your claim.

There is an even more direct connection to the Hebrew tradition of the Shekinah as St.Paul. the former Pharisee, stresses the indwelling nature of the Holy Spirit throughout his famous passage in Romans 8:8:  “But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you.”  There goes your Muslim accusation from another string that St. Paul hijacked the Christian faith.  You see, St. Paul was simply referencing what was already a present understanding of God in Judaism which had been realized by the Jewish believers more than 500 years before.

First of all, the verse is Romans 8:9, not verse 8.  Second of all, Paul contradicts the Jewish sources which show that the Shekinah is not the same as the Holy Spirit, since the latter was created.  And as "Turn to Torah" observed, each represents a different "spirit".  In fact, there are multiple "spirits" mentioned in the Tanakh.  According to the Jewish website "What Jews Believe":

"There are more than just three manifestations of God in the Hebrew Scriptures. There is of course, the Spirit of God, as we read in Genesis 1:2:

And The Spirit Of God (Ruach Elohm) moved over the face of the waters

But there is also an Evil Spirit of God, as we read in I Samuel 16:23:

And it came to pass, when The Evil Spirit Of God (Ruach Elohm Raah) was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

There is also a Lying Spirit Of God in I Kings 22:23:

Now therefore, behold, the Eternal hath put a lying spirit (Ruach Sheker) in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Eternal hath spoken evil concerning thee.

In Exodus 12:23, we are told that God will smite the Egyptians. But later in the same verse, we see that it is the Destroyer who smites the Egyptians.

For the Eternal will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Eternal will pass over the door, and will not suffer the Destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

One could then say that the Destroyer should be seen as a Person in God, just as the Spirit Of God is seen as a Person in God. To this we could add that the Lying Spirit Of God should be seen as a Person in God, and the Evil Spirit Of God should be seen as a Person in God. This would mean that instead of the Trinity in the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit, one should have the Father, the son, the Holy Spirit, the Lying Spirit, and the Evil Spirit, as well as the Destroyer. Should we add to this the Burning Bush?" [6].  

Again, we see how the NT contradicts the Tanakh.  Clearly, Paul was not representing actual Jewish teachings.  

Originally posted by Jack

The wind you referenced from the first chapters of Genesis was not the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was definitely present in that wind.  This is why one can say that the Holy Spirit was over the waters during that day of creation and be right on about it.  About the wind not being the Holy Spirit, 1 Kings 19:11 reveals to us that though synonymous at times, yet the wind and the Holy Spirit are not the same things:  1 Kings 19:11 11 The LORD said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by.” Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.”  From this passage we see that the wind, though not being the Holy Spirit, can contain the presence of the Holy Spirit, or Shekinah.

This is a non-sequitur for several reasons.  First of all, 1 Kings 19:11 mentions an earthquake (as you showed) as well as a fire following the wind.  Therefore, this "wind" is not the same as the "wind/spirit of God" mentioned in Genesis 1.  1 Kings 19:11 simply speaks of a different kind of wind.  Remember what the Jewish Encyclopedia stated:

"Though the nature of the Holy Spirit is really nowhere described, the name indicates that it was conceived as a kind of wind that became manifest through noise and light" [Ibid.].

The "wind" mentioned in 1 Kings 19:11 shows no such characteristics (noise and light).  Just as the Tanakh mentions different types of "spirits of God", it also mentions different types of "wind". 

Originally posted by Jack

Though not the same thing (wind and Holy Spirit) yet the fact that they are synonymous is recognized by Jesus when he uses wind to refer to a quality of God’s Holy Spirit (indwelling presence) in John 3:8 where he is speaking to Nicodemus, “The wind (referencing the Holy Spirit) blows where it chooses...”  The meaning implied by this statement is that the Holy Spirit will serve all peoples, not just Christians or Jews.
  

The reason for this is that linguistically, the Greek word for "spirit" is the same as the Greek word for "wind", as it is with Hebrew.  According to the NIV:

"The Greek for Spirit is the same as that for wind" [7, fn. d].

The difference is that both the Tanakh (Amos 4:13) and the Talmud (Hag. 12a, b) say that the wind, no matter what type, is created.  This includes the "wind/spirit of God" mentioned in Genesis 1.  Therefore, the Tanakh contradicts the NT.

Originally posted by Jack

St. Paul and Jesus were right in sync when St. Paul spoke of the same thing using different verbiage in Galatians 3;28, “There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave and free, there is no longer male and female;  for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.”  This has always meant, as context will tell you, that as we all have the Shakinah in us through Jesus, we are all as one as the Shakinah (Holy Spirit) which unites us is one.
  

Again, the Shekinah is not the same as the Holy Spirit.  Your continued use of non-sequiturs does nothing to change the facts.  Moreover, Galatians 3 makes no mention of the Shekinah, only of the "Spirit", which is of course associated with the "Holy Spirit" which Jewish belief stated was created.

Originally posted by Jack

In conclusion on this point, I’ll present a little summary of all the appearances of the Holy Spirit (Shekinah) in the Tanakh.
 

You can repeat your false claim that they are one and the same, but the above sources I quoted show clearly that they are not the same. 

Originally posted by Jack

The Shekinah (Holy Spirit) was present in the burning bush with Moses, in the pillar of fire by night and the pillar of smoke by day that protected the Israelites from Pharoh, then guided them through the desert.  The Shekinah (Holy Spirit) was present in the cloud that rested on the summit of Mt.Sinai when the Ten Commandments were given to Moses, and the Shekinah was present in the cloud that occupied the Holy of Holies in the Meeting tent built by the Israelites under Moses to house the Ark of the Covenant.  The Talmud teaches that the Shekinah is everywhere.
  

Yes, and it is not the same as the Holy Spirit.  The Talmud does say that the Shekinah is everywhere [Baba Bathra 25a], that it was present in the Burning Bush etc.  It does not, however, say that it is the same as the Holy Spirit. 

Originally posted by Jack

Observing Jews have a saying that the Shekinah (Holy Spirit) descends on each Friday at sunset to transform each Jewish home during the Sabbath.
  

Observant Jews do not believe they are the same thing, as I showed above.    

Originally posted by Jack

I have just shown the contrary using your precious Talmud and the Tanakh.  And I have shown how what was present in the Tanakh is exactly what Jesus Christ, St. Paul, and St. John were talking about in the NT.  Doesn’t leave much wiggle room for you, now, does it, IslamisnotPeace?

LOL Yeah, sure.  I have refuted all of your claims.

Originally posted by Jack

Your whole assertion that my sources are poor sources and your sources are better because they are Jewish is a pathetic joke and shows how you derive your logic, IslamisPeace. LOL For my sources quoted the same Talmud as you did.
   

Except that your "sources" used selective quotations to come to a baseless conclusion.  Every Jewish source contradicts that conclusion.  My sources, such as the Jewish Encyclopedia, refer to the Talmud to prove that Jews believed the Holy Spirit to be created.  How then, can it be the same as the Shekinah, which is just a fancy word for "God's presence"?

Now, since you like "Yahoo! Answers" so much, I thought I would give you a dose of your own medicine.  In response to the question "In Judaism is the Shekinah the Holy Spirit?", a Jewish poster refuted the claim of a Christian poster by stating:

"No- it refers to when G-d chooses to make [a] portion of himself moe (sic) easily discenable (sic) in a place and thus people say "here is G-d". This is easily seen in the Hebbrew (sic) as shekhina is a compond (sic) word made up of "SheKhan Yiheh" "that here he is" It is not a separate bing (sic) or part of G-d; just G-d letting himself be felt in a place" [8].

So here, a Jew directly refutes the Christian lies about the Holy Spirit and Shekinah being one and the same.   

Originally posted by Jack

I might also add that your “sources” are not the authorities you claim them to be, as there are two Talmuds, not one, the lesser used one being older, and being from the same faith community as Jesus, and also being not in full agreement with the teachings of the Talmud which you claim is the authority in Judaism.

LOL Now I have heard everything!  You quote from the same Talmud, but when faced with other passages from that Talmud, you try to use special pleading once again by saying that it is not as authoritative.  You quoted from the same Talmud, you dunce!  How dense can you be?  By the way, what does the "older" Talmud say that contradicts the Babylonian Talmud? Do tell.

Originally posted by Jack

You, brother, are Muslim, not Jewish, and so you are about as qualified as I to speak about Judaism, if not less so.
 

When did I say I am "qualified" speak about Judaism?  I have only stated the facts as Jewish sources mention them.  You, on the other hand, have repeatedly used Christian sources to "verify" your biased views.  You have been the one to repeatedly make unproven assertions using websites maintained by non-Jews, whereas I have made assertions based on material taken directly from Jewish sources. 

Originally posted by Jack

To repeat my last concluding discourse (your pathetic and revealing response will follow), “Now, I'm sorry if this is not the answer you are looking for.  Even kindergarteners know that you get what you get and you don't through a fit.  If you claim that this is not the answer to your question, then... too bad...  get over it.” LOL

All reasonable people will see that you are a dunce who cannot use objective reasoning and research to ascertain the facts.  Your reference to kindergarteners is apt since you basically think like one!  Big%20smile

Originally posted by Jack

IslamisPeace responded:  “It isn't (the answer I was looking for) because you are using Church tradition and teachings (aw, too bad old friendLOL) to garble the passages from the Tanakh.... Christians rely on blind faith and deliberate manipulations!  I am not responsible for your own ignorance and shabby research.” 

So you admit it!  You cannot "prove" that the Tanakh and NT are in agreement without referring to Church propaganda, whereas I have used actual Jewish sources which show conclusively that the Church's understanding of the Tanakh is pathetically erroneous.  Hence, the conclusion is that the Tanakh contradicts the NT.  There, there Jack.  Don't weep for your refuted Church propaganda.  Cry

Originally posted by Jack

My response:  All Jewish sources?  Yeah, and all posters on Islamicity Forums think you are just the coolest, most intelligent, and fascinating poster on the boards.LOL

So far, all Jewish sources mentioned have confirmed that the Holy Spirit was created.  Let me list them for convenience:

1.  Jewish Encyclopedia

2.  Turn to Torah

3.  Babylonian Talmud

Now, if you could kindly list the Jewish sources which do not believe that the Holy Spirit was created, we can move on.  Which Jewish sources state that the Holy Spirit was not created? Wink

I also showed that some Jewish scholars (Saadiah, Maimonides etc.) even believed that the Shekinah was also created [Encyclopedia Judaica]! 

Oh where will you go from here Jack?  You are dead meat!  Dead 

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2011 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

Jack catholic wrote:  You have used dictionaries to claim...
 
You make an interesting observation.  I agree totally.
 
For words which appear in English language translations of the Bible, muslim posters within this forum claim the right to "pick and choose" definitions from the dictionary which support their claim, whether or not their interpretation makes sense or is supported by other evidence.  At the moment, I am involved in discussions here which hinge on what the words chosen, contradiction, gospel, and judgement mean. 
 
Well, let me try this technique using a verse from the Koran and see what I come up with:
 
Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).   Surah 2:7
 
The dictionary defines seal as "a marine carnivore of the suborder Pinnipedia".  So, using this definition, an alternate translation of Surah 2:7 is:
 
Allah hath set a marine carnivore on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur). Surah 2:7
 
Is my translation valid?  Probably not.  But it seems that muslims in this forum do the exact same thing every day in their postings.  Kind of hard to hold serious discussions with people like that.


Reepicheep, you have made a severely illogical statement here.  First of all, I have used one dictionary, Strong's Concordance (which is actually a Christian source).  Second of all, I used a dictionary because no one here is an expert on ancient Hebrew.  Third, the references from Strong's Concordance are supported by references from the Tanakh and the Talmud.  Neither you nor Jack every responded to those references.  That tells me a lot. 

Regarding your false analogy of translating the English word "seal" as "marine carnivore", how is this the same as what I have written?  I am quite perplexed by this example.  Perhaps you can clarify the point of this analogy.  The Arabic word used in Surah 2:7 is "khatama" which means "Has set a seal".  How is replacing "seal" with "marine carnivore" the same as showing that in Hebrew, "wind" and "spirit" are synonymous? 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2011 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Dear Reepicheep,
 
Well said.  So you have noticed the same thing, too, huh?
 
Patience, my friend.  You seem to have a lot of it.  We'll use patience with some of these shinanegans (excuse my Irish idioms).  I'm sure Isla will come around as soon as he has exausted all of his creativity with language.
 
By the way, have you noticed he has about used up his creative terminology that tries to put his opposition down to a subservient class of poster in relation to himself?  I'm starting to see him repeat his verbage, and it no longer shocks me.  It's getting as old as dust.
 
Keep up your intelligent observations.  Great work!
 
May God bless you always,
 
Jack Catholic


LOL I always love to see you try to support your fellow Christians, just like a true papa bear would!  It's actually quite adorable.  Your childish claims about me aside, I say let the facts speak for themselves.  Your Christian propaganda has already gotten very old and tiring.  Sleepy     
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2011 at 3:32pm
Dear Isla,
 
You wrote, "Your Christian propaganda has already gotten very old and tiring."
 
Oh, boo hoo CryLOLLOL 
 
Blessings,
 
Jack Catholic
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