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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Tanakh vs. NT - Confirmation or Contradiction? Post Reply Post New Topic
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2011 at 2:57pm
Salam,
what a great response, it shows you have certainly more patience than me not to mention more knowledge. May Alah bless you.
 
It is funny that those who claim to be Christians are made to believe that God completely forgot to mention that He is made up of a Trinity to all of the OT prophets, the very first, most important thing about Himself?  How someone can it to be right and live with that is beyond my understanding.
Jazakallah,
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2011 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by honeto

Salam,
what a great response, it shows you have certainly more patience than me not to mention more knowledge. May Alah bless you.
 
It is funny that those who claim to be Christians are made to believe that God completely forgot to mention that He is made up of a Trinity to all of the OT prophets, the very first, most important thing about Himself?  How someone can it to be right and live with that is beyond my understanding.
Jazakallah,
Hasan


Walaikum as-salaam.  Brother, you are much more patient than me, as can be seen in your dealings with Jack and Larry.  Those two make me laugh and cry (with their buffoonery LOL), yet you maintain your composure.  My demeanor depends on who I am dealing with.  As far as I can tell, Reepicheep is not like Jack and Larry, so I have no reason to be "fresh" with him.  I respect people like him but people like Jack and Larry I treat like they deserve to be treated.  But that's just me. 

Anyway, to Reepicheep, I am greatly interested in your view in light of my last post.  I look forward to having a nice discussion, inshaAllah.   
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2011 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

islamispeace wrote: What we know is that the Tanakh says that God is "One" and not "three in one".
 
I agree with you that the bible states that there is only one God.  But I've never come across a bible passage which states that God is not "three in one".  Can you provide us with an example?


As I said, if that is your only argument in support of the trinity concept, then you should equally be content if someone would say that God could be a flying spaghetti monster since the Tanakh does not explicitly deny that he is not.

I argued that whenever the Tanakh speaks about God, not once does it say or even hint that God exists as three persons but is still One.  I would think that the absence of this concept from every single Jewish source, scriptural or not, would serve as conclusive evidence that the trinity was a new concept developed by the early Church to explain the contradictory verses in the NT (Jesus being human at one point and then divine at another etc.). 

Also, you did not answer my question about the covenant.  Why does the NT insist that the covenant is no longer in effect ("fulfilled" as Jack puts it) yet Isaiah said that the covenant would last forever? 


Edited by islamispeace - 10 October 2011 at 7:33pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2011 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Dear IslamisPeace,
 
Christians do not believe that the OT covenant was abolished.  Jesus refers to it as being fulfilled.  Please do not missrepresent us in this way.
 
Jack Catholic


LOL Typical attempts at moving the goal post.  Whether its abolished or "fulfilled" (whatever that means), Christians insist they are no longer bound by the old covenant, which is why you don't practice circumcision or the dietary laws.  Yet Isaiah stated that the covenant would last forever.  He didn't say anything about it being "fulfilled" (again whatever that means).    
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2011 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by Jack

Remember, you are trying to prove (the Holy Qur’an claims this) that the Holy Bible was originally correct revelation, and that humans have tampered with it changing some of its contents (evolution) resulting in contradiction.


Actually, in this thread, we are trying to determine whether the Tanakh and the NT are in agreement (as Christians claim) or if that claim is complete nonsense.  We are NOT talking about the Holy Qur'an or whether the Bible has evolved, as those are different topics altogether.  Therefore, I will ignore the parts of your post which deviate from this topic.  What I am looking for is evidence of the trinity concept in the Tanakh.  I don't care about the Church's teachings or the intricacies and mental gymnastics with which it attempts to explain the concept.  So let's see what evidence you can present. 

Originally posted by Jack

My answer:  "Neither the OT nor the NT uses the term "Holy Trinity" to describe Allah, and that is why you do not see it in either.  You are looking for the wrong thing.  The word Holy Trinity was used by the early Church to refer to what the Holy Bible does say about Allah.  You know, Hasan, I really do thank you.  Until discussing the Holy Trinity with you, I just accepted it, knowing the first century Church taught it, and Jesus taught the leaders of the first century Church.  But you have challenged me to look deeply into the issue for the first time.  Now I think my understanding of the Holy Trinity is so solid that I will never doubt it.  I thank Allah for this and for using you to help me learn so solidly the truth about Him.


I agree with you here.  But, this is nothing new.  Everyone knows that the word "trinity" is never actually used in either the Tanakh or the NT!  However, this fact actually argues against the authenticity of the concept itself  since it was first mentioned in the writings of men.  The words of men were the first to mention this concept, and not the words of God.  That is saying a lot. 

So far, you have presented no evidence in the form of verses from the Tanakh which mention or even hint at the trinity. 

Originally posted by Jack

OT spirit of God (from Carelinks Ministries on the internet)

 

 David asked God to continue to uphold him with his spirit, i.e. to preserve his life (Ps. 51:12).
 
We have “the breath of the spirit of life” within us (Gen. 7:22 A.V. mg.) given to us by God at birth (Ps. 104:30; Gen. 2:7). This makes Him “the God of the spirits of all flesh” (Num. 27:16 cf. Heb. 12:9). Because God is the life force which sustains all creation, His spirit is present everywhere. David recognised that through His spirit God was constantly present with him wherever he went, and through that spirit/power He was able to know every corner of David’s mind and thinking. Thus God’s spirit is the means by which He is present everywhere, although He personally is located in heaven.


OK, but how does this support the concept of the trinity?  This is not a tough question. 

Originally posted by Jack

The expression “Holy Spirit” is present in the Old Testament:

Psalm 51:13 “Cast me not out from your presence, and your holy spirit take not from me,” Isaiah 63: 10,and 11 “But they rebelled, and grieved his holy spirit; Where is he who put his holy spirit in their midst?”  “I will pour out my spirit upon your offspring, and my blessing upon your descendants” (Isaiah 44:3; see also Isaiah 44:5-6).



Yes it is mentioned, but how does this support the concept of the trinity? Angry  You have yet to answer this question!  Also, according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Jewish sources state that the "Holy Spirit" was created:

"Although the Holy Spirit is often named instead of God (e.g., in Sifre, Deut. 31 [ed. Friedmann, p. 72]), yet it was conceived as being something distinct. The Spirit was among the ten things that were created on the first day (Ḥag. 12a, b). Though the nature of the Holy Spirit is really nowhere described, the name indicates that it was conceived as a kind of wind that became manifest through noise and light." [1]

Yet, Christians insist that all three persons of the trinity are not created!  Why?   

Originally posted by Jack

There is a Catholic website that goes into the presence of the Holy Spirit in the OT in great detail:   http://198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/jub/JUBpizz.html, discussing over 20 references and its connection to Christianity.


Don't be lazy Jack.  You know I feel about being given links to read.  If you have something to present, present it here.  Don't give me links.  Even so, I looked at your link and it does not answer the question.  Where in the Tanakh is the concept of the trinity mentioned or even hinted at?  Furthermore, the link actually strengthens my argument since it admits that the references to the trinity concept were "obscure" in the Tanakh (but of course providing a pathetic excuse for this):

"The Old Testament proclaimed the Father quite clearly, the Son more obscurely. The New Testament revealed the Son, and gave glimpses of the divinity of the Spirit. Now the Spirit has made claim to citizenship in our midst, and grants us a very clear vision of itself. In fact, it was not prudent, when the divinity of the Father was still not declared, to quite frankly proclaim the Son, and when the divinity of the Son was still not acknowledged, to add the Holy Spirit as a additional package ... to use an expression which is a bit dry ... solely as a way to advance and develop: “from glory to glory, the light of the Trinity shining in most brilliant clarity” (Orationes Theologicae, 5:26).

Originally posted by Jack

So, here we have it.  The Holy Trinity, named by the Catholic Church in the second century, is clearly described in the New Testament, and now I have shown that the elements of the Holy Trinity are clearly in the Old Testament.  Thus, if you know what you are looking for, it is not difficult to see plainly that the Holy Trinity is, throughout the history of Allah’s revelation to mankind, consistant.  There is nothing invented by creative scribes or any other human tampering in regards to the Holy Trinity.  Indeed, only revelations from Allah that do not agree with the truth are those contained in the Holy Qur’an, but perhaps this is just that Muhammad did not really know Allah as well as Christians and Jews did...
 

This is of course typical "Jackian" BS.  And by the way, the Jews never believed in the trinity.  There is no evidence of any such belief among the Jews before the rise of Christianity, and you know it. 

So, here we have it.  No actual evidence presented but a lot mental gymnastics and non sequiturs.  This has been yet another disappointing post by Jack.  You know what?  Since the Christians on this forum have yet to present an actual verse to try to prove the existence of the trinity concept in the Tanakh, I am going to play devil's advocate for a second.  I am going to present a verse from the Tanakh which Christians traditionally interpret as a reference to the trinity and I will leave it at that.  Let's see if this stimulates some discussion.  The verse states:

"Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”"(Genesis 1:26)   

Let's see what our Christian buddies can do with this verse.  Is this a cryptic reference to the trinity or is it something more simple? 


Edited by islamispeace - 10 October 2011 at 7:41pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2011 at 9:15pm

Dear Hasan,

 
Thank you.  I appreciate your appreciation.  Though I know we have sparred a bit, I do respect you for your self control.  Though we do not agree on everything, yet I also respect your intellect and knowledge.
 
May Allah always bless you now and forever,
 
Jack Catholic
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2011 at 10:10pm
Dear IslamisPeace,
 
Regardless of what you say, the elements of who Allah is in the three persons of the Holy Trinity are there in the OT in the verses I gave you.  You may say that because they are not clear, that they don't serve to be supports to the Holy Trinity.  The Catholic Church teaches and I, after 30 years of study and contemplation, agree with all my heart, that the evidence of the three Persons of the one God, Allah, are present there.  And the term Holy Trinity was devised to describe not what Muhammad claims Christians teach and believe about Allah, but what is in the OT about the Word and Spirit of Allah, and how Jesus explained what was there.  There is a difference between the two, IslamiPeace.  If I believed what Muhammad says I believe as a Christian regarding the Holy Trinity, then I would deserve to be stonned to death.  But the Christian Holy Trinity is not what Muhammad claims it is.
 
God Bless you, IslamisPeace,
 
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2011 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Dear IslamisPeace,
 
Regardless of what you say, the elements of who Allah is in the three persons of the Holy Trinity are there in the OT in the verses I gave you.  You may say that because they are not clear, that they don't serve to be supports to the Holy Trinity.  The Catholic Church teaches and I, after 30 years of study and contemplation, agree with all my heart, that the evidence of the three Persons of the one God, Allah, are present there.  And the term Holy Trinity was devised to describe not what Muhammad claims Christians teach and believe about Allah, but what is in the OT about the Word and Spirit of Allah, and how Jesus explained what was there.  There is a difference between the two, IslamiPeace.  If I believed what Muhammad says I believe as a Christian regarding the Holy Trinity, then I would deserve to be stonned to death.  But the Christian Holy Trinity is not what Muhammad claims it is.
 
God Bless you, IslamisPeace,
 
Jack Catholic


You didn't show anything.  All you did was copy a Catholic apologetic article and pasted it here.  The article failed to prove anything and even admitted itself that the concept is "obscure".  So don't give me your BS.  The trinity is not present in the Tanakh nor was it ever recognized by the Jews.  In order to disprove this, you would have to provide clear verses from the Tanakh which state that God is three in one.  You have failed to do that.        
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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