IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Tanakh vs. NT

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Bowman

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Posted: 31 December 2011 at 9:21pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Bowman

Genesis chapters 18 – 19 comprise the longest Trinitarian proof text in the entire Holy Bible...

· Yahweh appears as ‘three men’ to Abraham (Gen 18.1 – 2)

· Abraham addresses the ‘three men’ as ‘my Lords’ (adonai - plural)

· Abrahams responds… “If I have found favor in your (singular) sight (singular)…” (Gen 18.3)

· “They answered Abraham” indicating that each of the ‘three men’ were Lord (Gen 18.5) (Effectively eliminating the three angels or God and two angels argument)

· Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the third person (Gen 18.14, 19)

· God the Father remained to talk with Abraham, then returned to Heaven without going to Sodom (Gen 18.33)

· According to the text, there are at least two Yahwehs in Genesis 18 – 19. One Yahweh stated that he would go down to Sodom – and then two of the ‘three men’ went to Sodom (Gen 18.2, 22; 19.12). Abraham remained talking with another Yahweh (Gen 18.21 – 22). Later, Yahweh is described as being in Heaven while Yahweh is mentioned as being in Sodom (Gen 19.24)

· Gen 18 -19 shows us that there was never such a thing as the ‘Majestic Plural’

Your appeal to these verses is refuted by two important verses that you have overlooked from one of the same chapter, namely Genesis 19:1-2, which state:

"¹ The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. ² “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning”" (Gen. 19:1-2).

Notice how Lot (pbuh) treats these angels (and they are angels as verse 1 states clearly) the same way that Abraham (pbuh), even calling them "lords" and referring to himself as their "servant". Therefore, in light of Genesis 19:1-2, it is clear that at least two of the men were angels and not "God the son" and "God the Holy Spirit". Hence, there is no reference to the trinity in these verses.

The Hebrew term is Malek, which means messenger.

Lot bows down in worship ('na') to them...of which, only God receives worship.

This merely amplifies what we already have shown you.

Orthodox Trinitarian Christian

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Trajik

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Posted: 31 December 2011 at 9:28pm

Asalamu Alaykum Wa Ramatulah wa barakatu Isalmispeace,

This was a very good response brother. I was going to reply but you already addressed the question.

Asalamu Alaykum Bowman,

You seem like a good seeker of truth. Insha'allah you find it. I will keep you in my dua's.

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islamispeace
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Posted: 01 January 2012 at 11:23am

Originally posted by Bowman

The Hebrew term is Malek, which means messenger.

Yes and it refers to angels. The point is that they were not "God". What is your point?

Originally posted by Bowman

Lot bows down in worship ('na') to them...of which, only God receives worship.

If that's the case, then why does your Bible say that David bowed down to Saul?

⁸ Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, “My lord the king!” When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. ⁹ He said to Saul, “Why do you listen when men say, ‘David is bent on harming you’? (1 Samuel 24:8-9)

Concerning Lot's act of bowing in Genesis 19, the word used can refer to prostrating both to God and to royalty, as stated by Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

"A primitive root; to depress, i.e. Prostrate (especially reflexive, in homage to royalty or God) -- bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship" [1].

Originally posted by Bowman

This merely amplifies what we already have shown you.

No, it actually shows that you are deliberately misreading the verse to point to a concept that is not there. Why does your Bible refer to the two men as angels yet you insist they were God? Can't you see that by doing so, you are committing a heinous sin? They were angels, not God. To call them God, when even your own Bible says they were merely servants of God is to violate the 1st commandment.

Edited by islamispeace - 01 January 2012 at 11:33am

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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islamispeace
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Posted: 01 January 2012 at 11:24am

Originally posted by Trajik

Asalamu Alaykum Wa Ramatulah wa barakatu Isalmispeace,

This was a very good response brother. I was going to reply but you already addressed the question.

Asalamu Alaykum Bowman,

You seem like a good seeker of truth. Insha'allah you find it. I will keep you in my dua's.

Walaikum as-salaam brother. Thanks for the kind words. May Allah (swt) guide us all on the straight path.

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Bowman

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Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:21pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Bowman

The Hebrew term is Malek, which means messenger.

Yes and it refers to angels. The point is that they were not "God". What is your point?

They were worshiped and prayed to as God.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Bowman

Lot bows down in worship ('na') to them...of which, only God receives worship.

Not even the same Hebrew word as used in the Genesis 19 example.

Try again...

Originally posted by islamispeace

Concerning Lot's act of bowing in Genesis 19, the word used can refer to prostrating both to God and to royalty, as stated by Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

"A primitive root; to depress, i.e. Prostrate (especially reflexive, in homage to royalty or God) -- bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship" [1].

H4994

נא

nâ'

naw

A primitive particle of incitement and entreaty, which may usually be rendered I pray, now or then; added mostly to verbs (in the imperative or future), or to interjections, occasionally to an adverb or conjugation: - I beseech (pray) thee (you), go to, now, oh.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Bowman

This merely amplifies what we already have shown you.

No.

What you have witnessed is the Uniplural creator God of the Holy Bible.

Btw...this concept was copied into the Koran, as well...

Edited by Bowman - 01 January 2012 at 4:23pm

Orthodox Trinitarian Christian

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islamispeace
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Posted: 02 January 2012 at 8:23pm

Originally posted by Bowman

They were worshiped and prayed to as God.

This is irrelevant. We already know that the angels worship God. You still have yet to provide conclusive evidence that the two men were not angels but God Himself. On the other hand, I have shown that the Bible itself identifies these men as angels. The angels are messengers of God. Therefore, they cannot be God.

Originally posted by Bowman

Not even the same Hebrew word as used in the Genesis 19 example.

Try again...

Again, irrelevant. The point is that in both instances, a man prostrated or bowed to another individual. Furthermore, I showed that the word used in Genesis 19 can refer to homage being paid to both royalty and God. Therefore, its usage is not limited to prostrating to God.

If you want an example of the same word being used, I can certainly provide it:

"⁷ Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land, the Hittites" (Genesis 23:7).

The same word is used in Genesis 19 and Genesis 23 [1]. So, there you go.

In summary:

1. The two men are clearly identified as angels.

2. The word used in Genesis 19 is used in other places and involves one person bowing to another person or people.

Originally posted by Bowman

H4994

נא

nâ'

naw

First of all, I provided supporting evidence from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance which shows that the word used in Genesis 19 is not always used to imply worship of God...unless you believe that Abraham was worshiping the Hittites in Genesis 23! Shocked

Second, the word "naw" does not even appear in Genesis 19:1! The word used for Lot's act of bowing is "way·yiš·ta·ḥū" which means "and bowed" [1]. I don't know where you got the idea that the word "naw" is used in Genesis 19:1. It appears in Genesis 12:13 (among other places), which states:

"¹³ Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you”" (Genesis 12:13).

It also appears in Genesis 19:2 but it is the word used for "please":

² “My lords,” he said, “please (naw) turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”

“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”

In addition, you have completely misunderstood the meaning of the word "naw". It does not imply worship. The short definition of the word actually means "please". The phrase "I pray" is in the context of "I pray thee/you". It does not mean praying to God. It's a figure of speech which implies requesting something of someone, kind of like asking for a favor.

Originally posted by Bowman

No.

What you have witnessed is the Uniplural creator God of the Holy Bible.

Btw...this concept was copied into the Koran, as well...

Just saying "no" does not refute anything. On the contrary, what I have "witnessed" is just another attempt by a Christian to misrepresent the Tanakh as a result of poor research and ignorance of both the Bible and the Hebrew language.

Also, as I said before, the topic of this thread is not the Holy Quran. So please stop diverting to unrelated topics. If you want to discuss that issue, open a new thread.

Edited by islamispeace - 02 January 2012 at 8:24pm

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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truthnowcome

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Posted: 02 January 2012 at 11:35pm

As-Salaam- mu-Alikum Islamforpeace!

I did a brush true this discussion and what I have found let me put is this way in short. The NT. It self contradict their doctrine.

You established a verse that read as follows: “The evil spirit of God”.

Does that mean the evil spirit is a part of God?

There is also in the writings that mentioned: “the angel of God”. Is the Angel a part of God?

There is also mentioned in the writings: “the son or sons of God”. Is he or they are a part of God?

The answer to all is no! They are all God’s creation.

So the Holy Spirit is no exception! The holy spirit of God is the creation of God, which you have proven in your post (wind, breath, spirit, ruah).

JESUS (s) WAS A FAITHFUL WITNESS AND NOT GOD ALMIGHTY.

It mentioned in Rev.1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Ø John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from “him” which is, and which was, and which is to come; “and” from the seven Spirits which are BEFORE HIS THRONE; V.5 “And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness… Rev.1: 4-5

As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty, and then the seven Spirits which is BEFORE THE THRONE and Verse 5 says, “and” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness…” If the seven Spirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty.

TNC

LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!

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islamispeace
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Posted: 07 January 2012 at 3:50pm

Anything to add, Bowman?

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Topic: Tanakh vs. NT - Confirmation or Contradiction?
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Author	Message
Bowman Newbie Joined: 22 December 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 20	Posted: 31 December 2011 at 9:21pm
	*Originally posted by islamispeace* *Originally posted by Bowman* Genesis chapters 18 – 19 comprise the longest Trinitarian proof text in the entire Holy Bible... · Yahweh appears as ‘three men’ to Abraham (Gen 18.1 – 2) · Abraham addresses the ‘three men’ as ‘my Lords’ (adonai - plural) · Abrahams responds… “If I have found favor in your (singular) sight (singular)…” (Gen 18.3) · *“They* answered Abraham” indicating that each of the ‘three men’ were Lord (Gen 18.5) (Effectively eliminating the three angels or God and two angels argument) · Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the third person (Gen 18.14, 19) · God the Father remained to talk with Abraham, then returned to Heaven without going to Sodom (Gen 18.33) · According to the text, there are at least two Yahwehs in Genesis 18 – 19. One Yahweh stated that he would go down to Sodom – and then two of the ‘three men’ went to Sodom (Gen 18.2, 22; 19.12). Abraham remained talking with another Yahweh (Gen 18.21 – 22). Later, Yahweh is described as being in Heaven while Yahweh is mentioned as being in Sodom (Gen 19.24) · Gen 18 -19 shows us that there was never such a thing as the ‘Majestic Plural’ Your appeal to these verses is refuted by two important verses that you have overlooked from one of the same chapter, namely Genesis 19:1-2, which state: "¹ The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.** ² “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning”" (Gen. 19:1-2). Notice how Lot (pbuh) treats these angels (and they are angels as verse 1 states clearly) the same way that Abraham (pbuh), even calling them "lords" and referring to himself as their "servant". Therefore, in light of Genesis 19:1-2, it is clear that at least two of the men were angels and not "God the son" and "God the Holy Spirit". Hence, there is no reference to the trinity in these verses. The Hebrew term is Malek, which means messenger. Lot bows down in worship ('na') to them...of which, only God receives worship. This merely amplifies what we already have shown you.
	Orthodox Trinitarian Christian
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Trajik Newbie Joined: 29 October 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 17	Posted: 31 December 2011 at 9:28pm
	Asalamu Alaykum Wa Ramatulah wa barakatu Isalmispeace, This was a very good response brother. I was going to reply but you already addressed the question. Asalamu Alaykum Bowman, You seem like a good seeker of truth. Insha'allah you find it. I will keep you in my dua's.
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 01 January 2012 at 11:23am
	*Originally posted by Bowman* The Hebrew term is Malek, which means messenger. Yes and it refers to angels. The point is that they were not "God". What is your point? *Originally posted by Bowman* Lot bows down in worship ('na') to them...of which, only God receives worship. If that's the case, then why does your Bible say that David bowed down to Saul? ⁸ Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, “My lord the king!” When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. ⁹ He said to Saul, “Why do you listen when men say, ‘David is bent on harming you’? (1 Samuel 24:8-9) Concerning Lot's act of bowing in Genesis 19, the word used can refer to prostrating both to God and to royalty, as stated by Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: "A primitive root; to depress, i.e. Prostrate (especially reflexive, in homage to royalty or God) -- bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship" [1]. *Originally posted by Bowman* This merely amplifies what we already have shown you. No, it actually shows that you are deliberately misreading the verse to point to a concept that is not there. Why does your Bible refer to the two men as angels yet you insist they were God? Can't you see that by doing so, you are committing a heinous sin? They were angels, not God. To call them God, when even your own Bible says they were merely servants of God is to violate the 1st commandment. Edited by islamispeace - 01 January 2012 at 11:33am
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 01 January 2012 at 11:24am
	*Originally posted by Trajik* Asalamu Alaykum Wa Ramatulah wa barakatu Isalmispeace, This was a very good response brother. I was going to reply but you already addressed the question. Asalamu Alaykum Bowman, You seem like a good seeker of truth. Insha'allah you find it. I will keep you in my dua's. Walaikum as-salaam brother. Thanks for the kind words. May Allah (swt) guide us all on the straight path.
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Bowman Newbie Joined: 22 December 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 20	Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:21pm
	*Originally posted by islamispeace* *Originally posted by Bowman* The Hebrew term is Malek, which means messenger. Yes and it refers to angels. The point is that they were not "God". What is your point? They were worshiped and prayed to as God. *Originally posted by islamispeace* *Originally posted by Bowman* Lot bows down in worship ('na') to them...of which, only God receives worship. If that's the case, then why does your Bible say that David bowed down to Saul? ⁸ Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, “My lord the king!” When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. ⁹ He said to Saul, “Why do you listen when men say, ‘David is bent on harming you’? (1 Samuel 24:8-9) Not even the same Hebrew word as used in the Genesis 19 example. Try again... *Originally posted by islamispeace* Concerning Lot's act of bowing in Genesis 19, the word used can refer to prostrating both to God and to royalty, as stated by Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: "A primitive root; to depress, i.e. Prostrate (especially reflexive, in homage to royalty or God) -- bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship" [1]. H4994 נא nâ' naw A primitive particle of incitement and entreaty, which may usually be rendered I pray, now or then; added mostly to verbs (in the imperative or future), or to interjections, occasionally to an adverb or conjugation: - I beseech (pray) thee (you), go to, now, oh. *Originally posted by islamispeace* *Originally posted by Bowman* This merely amplifies what we already have shown you. No, it actually shows that you are deliberately misreading the verse to point to a concept that is not there. Why does your Bible refer to the two men as angels yet you insist they were God? Can't you see that by doing so, you are committing a heinous sin? They were angels, not God. To call them God, when even your own Bible says they were merely servants of God is to violate the 1st commandment. No. What you have witnessed is the Uniplural creator God of the Holy Bible. Btw...this concept was copied into the Koran, as well... Edited by Bowman - 01 January 2012 at 4:23pm
	Orthodox Trinitarian Christian
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 02 January 2012 at 8:23pm
	*Originally posted by Bowman* They were worshiped and prayed to as God. This is irrelevant. We already know that the angels worship God. You still have yet to provide conclusive evidence that the two men were not angels but God Himself. On the other hand, I have shown that the Bible itself identifies these men as angels. The angels are messengers of God. Therefore, they cannot be God. *Originally posted by Bowman* Not even the same Hebrew word as used in the Genesis 19 example. Try again... Again, irrelevant. The point is that in both instances, a man prostrated or bowed to another individual. Furthermore, I showed that the word used in Genesis 19 can refer to homage being paid to both royalty and God. Therefore, its usage is not limited to prostrating to God. If you want an example of the same word being used, I can certainly provide it: "⁷ Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land, the Hittites" (Genesis 23:7). The same word is used in Genesis 19 and Genesis 23 [1]. So, there you go. In summary: 1. The two men are clearly identified as angels. 2. The word used in Genesis 19 is used in other places and involves one person bowing to another person or people. *Originally posted by Bowman* H4994 נא nâ' naw A primitive particle of incitement and entreaty, which may usually be rendered I pray, now or then; added mostly to verbs (in the imperative or future), or to interjections, occasionally to an adverb or conjugation: - I beseech (pray) thee (you), go to, now, oh. First of all, I provided supporting evidence from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance which shows that the word used in Genesis 19 is not always used to imply worship of God...unless you believe that Abraham was worshiping the Hittites in Genesis 23! Second, the word "naw" does not even appear in Genesis 19:1! The word used for Lot's act of bowing is "way·yiš·ta·ḥū" which means "and bowed" [1]. I don't know where you got the idea that the word "naw" is used in Genesis 19:1. It appears in Genesis 12:13 (among other places), which states: "¹³ Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you”" (Genesis 12:13). It also appears in Genesis 19:2 but it is the word used for "please": ² “My lords,” he said, “please (naw) turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.” “No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.” In addition, you have completely misunderstood the meaning of the word "naw". It does not imply worship. The short definition of the word actually means "please". The phrase "I pray" is in the context of "I pray thee/you". It does not mean praying to God. It's a figure of speech which implies requesting something of someone, kind of like asking for a favor. *Originally posted by Bowman* No. What you have witnessed is the Uniplural creator God of the Holy Bible. Btw...this concept was copied into the Koran, as well... Just saying "no" does not refute anything. On the contrary, what I have "witnessed" is just another attempt by a Christian to misrepresent the Tanakh as a result of poor research and ignorance of both the Bible and the Hebrew language. Also, as I said before, the topic of this thread is not the Holy Quran. So please stop diverting to unrelated topics. If you want to discuss that issue, open a new thread. Edited by islamispeace - 02 January 2012 at 8:24pm
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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truthnowcome Senior Member Joined: 05 April 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 683	Posted: 02 January 2012 at 11:35pm
	<> As-Salaam- mu-Alikum Islamforpeace! I did a brush true this discussion and what I have found let me put is this way in short. The NT. It self contradict their doctrine. You established a verse that read as follows: “The evil spirit of God”. Does that mean the evil spirit is a part of God? There is also in the writings that mentioned: “the angel of God”. Is the Angel a part of God? There is also mentioned in the writings: “the son or sons of God”. Is he or they are a part of God? The answer to all is no! They are all God’s creation. So the Holy Spirit is no exception! The holy spirit of God is the creation of God, which you have proven in your post (wind, breath, spirit, ruah). JESUS (s) WAS A FAITHFUL WITNESS AND NOT GOD ALMIGHTY. It mentioned in Rev.1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Ø John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from *“him”* which is, and which was, and which is to come; *“and”* *from the seven Spirits which are BEFORE HIS THRONE;* V.5 *“And”* from Jesus Christ, *who is the faithful witness… Rev.1: 4-5 As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty, and then the seven Spirits which is BEFORE THE THRONE and Verse 5 says, “and”* from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness…” If the seven Spirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty. TNC <>
	LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 07 January 2012 at 3:50pm
	Anything to add, Bowman?
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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