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Message Icon Topic: Tanakh vs. NT - Confirmation or Contradiction? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Jack Catholic
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2011 at 9:44pm
Dear Hasan,
 
I'm not kidding.  If you'd have asked me a year ago where in the OT one might find the evidense of the Holy Trinity, I would have drawn a blank, then answered, "I honestly don't know, but Jesus spoke of God's three persons and I trust him." This much I knew.
 
But in my discussions with you, I've looked and seen that even before the time of the Maccabees in Jewish history, the presence of the Holy Spirit was there in the lives of Israel.  The Catholic Church has always known it, the Talmud reflects it.  The OT is very clear about the "Presence of God," even giving it a name different from "Yahweh," the tetragram of Allah's very name.  And that wierd first chapter of John's Gospel is actually pointing to the presence of Jesus even before the beginnings of the earth and everything in it.  Jesus has always been, as has been the Holy Spirit, in the OT and throughout time.  I am over 40 years old, and I couldn't see it for all my life, but now I can.  Hey, if I couldn't see it for this long in my life, I couldn't expect you to see it in a discussion where your full attention is focused on trying to prove that the Holy Bible has been tampered with and is now so badly altered that it doesn't resemble it's orriginal writting even closely. 
 
And no, I don't consider your last post to be rude.  I do see your exasperation, though.  You have carefully worded your questions to emit an answer from me that you believe to be telling to what you believe is true, and that answer you are not getting from me.  You might have gotten it a year ago.  But not know.  Thanks to your challanges, I see, my brother.  I finally see with both eyes open what Jesus knew and taught, but what Muhammad didn't/couldn't believe about Allah.  Allah defys human imagination and logic.  Yet everything about Allah speaks of love, about how much Allah loves us and longs for us to be with him always.  I understand now (not just know and believe in faith) how Allah doesn't wait till we die to take us to Him, but he actually is intimately with us, inside us, by His Holy Spirit night and day working to transform our lives and hearts to turn towards him.  Allah sent his words to take on human flesh and be called Jesus, a name which means "God with us," and in so doing touch our minds and hearts such that our lives would be changed.  God wants more than slave-like obedience from his believers, the obedience that Muhammad commands his followers to give Allah.  Allah truly wants our hearts to be so in love with him that his is at every moment of every 24 hour day in every act we make and every breath we take.  He wants us to give our lives to him, not just in name, or as a martyr in death, but to die to our selfishness and live every moment as an act, and expression of total love, generosity, and devotion to Him.  It is so very clear when we see Allah as a Holy Trinity that Allah loves each and every one of us with all His might.
 
No, Hasan, I can't give you the answer you are trying to get me to give you, because the answer would not be accurate, and the conclusion would be even more inacurate.  I must out of love for Allah who gave the life of His very son for me speak the truth.   The truth is that if you are looking for a simple verse that says, "Allah is three in one," you will not find it, though you look with a nit pick.  Indeed Allah is said to be One God and not many, and so He is.  And yes, Allah does not want us to make any statues of what we believe is God and worship it as if it itself were God.  Yet it would be foolish to deny what Jesus and indeed all Judaism since the time of the the Diaspora came to realize, and that was that Allah dearly loves his believers/followers and would be present with them no matter what, that his word in actions was and expression of love for them and his presence was as well.
 
Allah's blessings,
 
jack Catholic
 


Edited by Jack Catholic - 30 October 2011 at 6:46am
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2011 at 11:24pm
Dear Kish,
 
Awesome response!  Did you check out IslamisnotPeace's non-answer?  Get a load of this one:
 
What a pathetic response Kish!  This one takes the cake!  You are even worse than Jack.  At least he tried to stay on topic.  No where did you attempt to answer the question. LOL
 
 
But Kish, you certainly did.  The title is the NT vs. Tanakh (or vise versa), and you simply showed that the Holy Bible (OT and NT) was accepted as authentic by Muslims from as far back as the first century or so after Muhammad.  You certainly did answer the question, and you showed that it was a man many hundreds of years later who bothered to read the Holy Bible who noticed the discrepencies that Jews and Christians of Muhammad's time noticed right away about Muhammad's claims.  Yup!  You just hit the nail on the head!LOL  Throughout history, very few people have chosen to be Muslim, but have had it forced on them because anyone who knows the Jewish and Christian scriptures well knows that Muhammad got much of it wrong, and one must question the truth of his claims that an angel of God really spoke to him with God's own words.Big%20smile  That is why there is this desperate bias on these boards to try to trip up Christians and Jews on their knowledge and claims about the teachings of the Holy Bible.  It's all about making people believe that the Holy Bible is corrupted, which it is not.  People like us drive IslamisnotPeace up the wall, because we don't let up, and we keep giving solid unarguable answers.  He just can't quite seem to get a grip on the issue enough to trip us up.  That's also why he gave you a non-answer rather than address the things you said...Big%20smile
 
Nice going, Kish.  Keep up the great work!  IslamisnotPeace,  eat your heart out!!!WinkBig%20smileLOL
 
Blessings on you both,
 
Jack Catholic
 
 


Edited by Jack Catholic - 29 October 2011 at 11:46pm
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2011 at 7:46am
Dear IslamisPeace,
 
Here's what you've been waiting for.  I've had to cut out your "entertainment fluff and summarized your few week points below in bold type.  There were a few lines of yours that I posted to show how week your "intelligent posts" really are.  They have doctors who can treat people with your kind of logic.  Well, here is my long awaited response.  Have fun with it.LOL
 
You claimed:
 
1.  The Talmud identifies the Holy Spirit using words that show it to be synonymous with wind, then you say that it claims that like the wind, the Holy Spirit was created.
 
2.  The elements of the Holy Trinity are unclear, unexplained, and confusing.  Catholic interpretation garbles and manipulates the Tanakh to say there is a Holy Trinity where there isn’t.
 
3.  You challenged my explanation on the term Shekinah by telling me that my sources of information are not authoritative and yours are:  the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud.  Then you made the following claim (in your own words):  “The "Holy Spirit" in Hebrew is "Rua ha-odesh".  See the Jewish Encyclopedia for reference.  The word "Shekinah" is associated with the Holy Spirit but it is not the word for "Holy Spirit".”
 

Here, IslamisPeace, is a summary of the ridiculously pointless arguments you are making to what I am saying.

Jack:  The elements of the Holy Trinity are present in the Tanakh:

Isla:  You didn’t you prove that these "elements" point to a triune God. 

Jack:  I said that the Holy Trinity is a term designed to summarize what is already in both the Tanakh and the NT.

Isla:  Yet it is never explained in the Tanakh and not even in the NT!  (IslamisPeace, it is so not necessary for the Tanakh to explain the Holy Trinity for the Holy Trinity to be present in the Tanakh.  This sudden requirement of yours is a pathetically irrelevant attempt to make me look like the buffoon that you keep proving yourself to be.LOL  For next I will quote you giving the exact question of our discussion which is on topic...)   The question was whether the trinity is present in the Tanakh. (see?)  You have not provided that proof as of yet, only the Church's interpretation of those verses.  (I have, but you refuse to acknowledge it, as your words that follow clearly show)  I have ignored your pathetic attempts... to answer the question.  (And this, my open-eyed, intelligent discussion buddy, is how you deal with evidence you don’t want to hear.)

Jack:  I researched out Jewish beliefs about the Holy Spirit and found that Jews call the Holy Spirit "Shekhinah," which means "a manifestation of the divine presence."  I don't see anything in this definition that even resembles a created Spirit.

 
Isla:  I provided a reference from a Jewish source that states clearly that the Holy Spirit was created.  Are you telling me that the "Jewish Encyclopedia" is not a "Jewish" source?  Come on, Jack.  Seriously? (Did I say that the Jewish Encyclopedia was not a “Jewish” source?Confused  Grabbing at smoke again, are we, IslamisnotPeace?Big%20smile)

Now, IslamisPeace, I am going to give you a thorough response.  I’ll use the Tanakh and the NT to show that the two are not in conflict as the title of this string of posts suggests:  Tanakh vs. NT.  I’ll also bring in quotes from your precious Talmud, which you are so quick to make appear to contradict me – it does not, as I have so clearly shown from its own pages before.

Your first assertion: 

The Talmud identifies the Holy Spirit using words that show it to be synonymous with wind.  This means that, like the wind, the Holy Spirit was created.

So, IslmisPeace, you are saying that the Holy Spirit is synonymous with the wind per the first chapters of Genesis and throughout the Tanakh.  And since the wind is created, so also is the Holy Spirit.  Next, you say my assertion of Shekinah being the Holy Spirit in Judaism is therefore false.  You suggest that most of my evidence comes from the Catholic Church and the NT and is therefore inadmissible evidence in this discussion.  (even though the discussion is about comparing the NT to the OT [Tanakh])  Let’s look a little more closely at the Tanakh to see if you are so correct as you imagine yourself to be.  You will see that what I am saying about the Holy Spirit, and indeed about the Holy Trinity, is not my own interpretation.  You will find that Jewish and Christian beliefs fit “hand in glove” – it is you and your Muslim beliefs that just...don’t fit.

The early scribes (later called rabbis) added Shekinah in biblical verses where the verb shakhan is used in relation to God. Shakhan literally means "to dwell" or "to live with", or even "to pitch one's tent." The word Shekinah means the God-Who-Dwells-Within.   The Israelites began to realize this quality of God primarily after the destruction of the Temple of Solomon in 587 BC, especially as it proffered hope to a people lost in bitter exile. To console an Israel in Diaspora, the comforting, forgiving and loyal presence of the Shekinah emerged in their awareness. The Talmud, which is the Jewish Authority you claim contradicts my assertions, IslamisnotPeace, says: "They were exiled to Babylon, the Shekinah with them. They were exiled to Egypt, the Shekinah with them." The Tanakh says in Lamentations 1, 5, "Her children are gone into captivity," and immediately after (1,6), "From Zion her splendor is departed." The use of "splendor" is also one of the ways to describe the Shekinah. Other terms referring to the Shekinah are "the glory" and "radiance". The shekinah was present in the cloud by day and pillar of fire by night that led the Israelites through the Sinai wilderness.

The Shekinah eventually became an interchangeable term with the Holy Spirit in Judaism, which was eventually carried into Christianity through Jesus to his Apostles.  The Shekinah is often pictured as a bird or dove.  In Chrisianity the Holy Spirit is seen as the Advocate, Guide and Comforter (John 14:16-26, and Acts 9:31). This is a logical extension of the similar rolls played by the Shekinah in the Babylonian Captivity and the Slavery in Egypt.  There is an even more direct connection to the Hebrew tradition of the Shekinah as St.Paul. the former Pharisee, stresses the indwelling nature of the Holy Spirit throughout his famous passage in Romans 8:8:  “But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you.”  There goes your Muslim accusation from another string that St. Paul hijacked the Christian faith.  You see, St. Paul was simply referencing what was already a present understanding of God in Judaism which had been realized by the Jewish believers more than 500 years before. 

The wind you referenced from the first chapters of Genesis was not the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was definitely present in that wind.  This is why one can say that the Holy Spirit was over the waters during that day of creation and be right on about it.  About the wind not being the Holy Spirit, 1 Kings 19:11 reveals to us that though synonymous at times, yet the wind and the Holy Spirit are not the same things:  1 Kings 19:11 11 The LORD said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by.” Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.”  From this passage we see that the wind, though not being the Holy Spirit, can contain the presence of the Holy Spirit, or Shekinah.

 

Though not the same thing (wind and Holy Spirit) yet the fact that they are synonymous is recognized by Jesus when he uses wind to refer to a quality of God’s Holy Spirit (indwelling presence) in John 3:8 where he is speaking to Nicodemus, “The wind (referencing the Holy Spirit) blows where it chooses...”  The meaning implied by this statement is that the Holy Spirit will serve all peoples, not just Christians or Jews.  St. Paul and Jesus were right in sync when St. Paul spoke of the same thing using different verbiage in Galatians 3;28, “There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave and free, there is no longer male and female;  for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.”  This has always meant, as context will tell you, that as we all have the Shakinah in us through Jesus, we are all as one as the Shakinah (Holy Spirit) which unites us is one.

In reference to the Holy Trinity, it is well established that both Paul and John frequently equated Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit as seen in the Romans 8 passages and in the Paraclete passages of John (chapters 14-16).

In conclusion on this point, I’ll present a little summary of all the appearances of the Holy Spirit (Shekinah) in the Tanakh.  The Shekinah (Holy Spirit) was present in the burning bush with Moses, in the pillar of fire by night and the pillar of smoke by day that protected the Israelites from Pharoh, then guided them through the desert.  The Shekinah (Holy Spirit) was present in the cloud that rested on the summit of Mt.Sinai when the Ten Commandments were given to Moses, and the Shekinah was present in the cloud that occupied the Holy of Holies in the Meeting tent built by the Israelites under Moses to house the Ark of the Covenant.  The Talmud teaches that the Shekinah is everywhere.  Observing Jews have a saying that the Shekinah (Holy Spirit) descends on each Friday at sunset to transform each Jewish home during the Sabbath.

Your second point:

The elements of the Holy Trinity are unclear, unexplained, and confusing.  Catholic interpretation garbles and manipulates the Tanakh to say there is a Holy Spirit where there isn’t.

I have just shown the contrary using your precious Talmud and the Tanakh.  And I have shown how what was present in the Tanakh is exactly what Jesus Christ, St. Paul, and St. John were talking about in the NT.  Doesn’t leave much wiggle room for you, now, does it, IslamisnotPeace?

 

Your third point:

3.  You challenged my explanation on the term Shekinah by telling me that my sources of information are not authoritative and yours are:  the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud.  Then you made the following claim (in your own words):  “The "Holy Spirit" in Hebrew is "Rua ha-odesh".  See the Jewish Encyclopedia for reference.  The word "Shekinah" is associated with the Holy Spirit but it is not the word for "Holy Spirit".”

Your whole assertion that my sources are poor sources and your sources are better because they are Jewish is a pathetic joke and shows how you derive your logic, IslamisPeace. LOL For my sources quoted the same Talmud as you did.   Then, when I looked into the Talmud, what did I see?  That the article I accessed quoted properly and did not interpret and assume as you did when you quoted it.  You have been known to deceive, Islamisnotpeace.  You have posted data even from the Tanakh to me on another string and left important parts out, then come back later to say that the part I posted (Gen 9:3) was known to you and that you were just waiting to see if I would find it.  In that string, Gen 9:3 revealed word for word how wrong you truly were.  You are as wrong in this string.  I might also add that your “sources” are not the authorities you claim them to be, as there are two Talmuds, not one, the lesser used one being older, and being from the same faith community as Jesus, and also being not in full agreement with the teachings of the Talmud which you claim is the authority in Judaism.  There are also 4 major sects of Judaism, only one holding to your version of the Talmud as a religious authority.  So much for your disqualifying me for speaking about Jewish belief because I am Catholic.  You, brother, are Muslim, not Jewish, and so you are about as qualified as I to speak about Judaism, if not less so.  You have shown your bias (in your comments), which is to discredit both the Torah and the Holy Bible so as to claim that the only real truth is the “pure and unaltered” Qur'an.  I, on the other hand, simply intend to show that indeed the Jews and the Tanakh are both correct and that Jesus, also a Jew, simply shed some light onto what the Jews already knew so that they and all of humanity would know the full truth about Allah.  So don’t point your crooked finger at me and call me biased and unqualified.  You are the verbalist who keeps getting things wrong due to random interpretation and unsupported surmizings.  You have about as much of an imagination as, say, Muhammad. 

To repeat my last concluding discourse (your pathetic and revealing response will follow), “Now, I'm sorry if this is not the answer you are looking for.  Even kindergarteners know that you get what you get and you don't through a fit.  If you claim that this is not the answer to your question, then... too bad...  get over it.” LOL

 

IslamisPeace responded:  “It isn't (the answer I was looking for) because you are using Church tradition and teachings (aw, too bad old friendLOL) to garble the passages from the Tanakh.... Christians rely on blind faith and deliberate manipulations!  I am not responsible for your own ignorance and shabby research.” 

Isla. continued:  “I have used authentic Jewish sources to prove my case.  

 
IslamisPeace, this response just takes the cake – my emotion faces inserted at appropriate places: 
 
“(Your assertions are) clearly false in light of my (IslamisnotPeace’s) evidence, my friend.  Will you admit that you were in error?  I am giving you another chance to show that you are capable of objectivity.  If you do, I promise I will show you more respect. LOL One of my pet peeves is with people who refuse to look at the evidence and instead pretend that nothing has been proven even though the evidence is solid. ConfusedLOL That is what irritates me most about youCry which is why I don't take you seriously when debating with you. Cry But, I am willing to let bygones be bygones. Tongue However, it all depends on how you respond to the above evidence.WinkLOLLOLLOL
 

Then you reassert your imagined solid points:

“The Holy Spirit was created, according to the Jews and all Jewish sources.”
 

My response:  All Jewish sources?  Yeah, and all posters on Islamicity Forums think you are just the coolest, most intelligent, and fascinating poster on the boards.LOL

 

Allah’s Blessings, Isla,

 

Jack Catholic



Edited by Jack Catholic - 31 October 2011 at 10:59am
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2011 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep

islamispeace wrote:  move on to listing more evidence of how the NT contradicts the Tanakh.
 
Just to clarify your english: you still haven't provided us with an example of a contradiction, so it is obviously incorrect of you to claim that you will provide us with "more" examples.


Well, if you haven't been paying attention to this thread, then I can understand your comment.  However, if you are paying attention, then you will that I have shown a few contradictions already regarding the covenant and the status of the Holy Spirit.  Regarding the latter, Christians insist that the Holy Spirit is uncreated.  But, the Tanakh and Jewish tradition maintain that the Holy Spirit was actually created on the first day.  See my rebuttal to Jack above for the evidence. 

Regarding the trinity, I have already pointed out to you that to say that since the Tanakh never explicitly denies that God is a trinity then it would not be a contradiction to say that He is, is logically absurd.   
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2011 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Dear IslamisPeace,
 
Oh, are you waiting?  I'm soooo sorry.CryLOL Don't get too irritated...Wink
 
Blessings,
 
Jack CatholicWink


Actually, I am quite exhilarated at your silence!  It shows me that you have been stupefied and vexed by the evidence.  But, instead of admitting your error and trying to learn the truth, you let your arrogance get the best of you.  It seems that I have brought out the real Jack, as can be seen by your recent posts.  You have resorted to clownish behavior instead of actual discussion.  I love it! 

Your silence on the issue of the Holy Spirit being created is made even more noticeable by your attempt to bring Kish's (who is taking an intellectual beating on another thread already) red herring post back into the mix.  There was no point of responding to that post because it was completely unrelated to the thread (plus it was plagiarized as per Kish's usual tactic).  But the fact that he tried shows that this thread is causing much discomfort for the Christians on this forum.  None of you can seem to respond to the evidence.  I think Kish actually feels that the issue of the trinity is at least plausible since he considers it to be a foreign concept which was not taught by Jesus or the disciples.  But of course, the rest of the topic (the Tanakh contradicting the NT) is uncomfortable for him as a Christian. 

Anyway, the Holy Spirit was created according to the Tanakh and Jewish tradition.  Therefore, this constitutes a contradiction between the Tanakh and the NT.        
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Reepicheep Replybullet Posted: 31 October 2011 at 8:28am
islamispeace wrote:  I have already pointed out to you that to say that since the Tanakh never explicitly denies that God is a trinity then it would not be a contradiction to say that He is, is logically absurd.
 
Why do you think this is a both a contradiction and logically absurd?  It is obviously neither.
 
Prove to me using symbolic logic that there is a falsehood here.  Show me, using the laws of logic, where the contradiction is.
 
 
 

 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 31 October 2011 at 11:17am
Jack,
thanks for your reply. Holy spirit, as mentioned in the Bible and Quran is not God. Has it been God, it would not be under God's commands, nor it would be evil at times as the Bible says which simply shows the tranformation of understanding the difference between angels and Satan, both beings spirits.
Anyone or anything that is under God's command or to His service is not God.
What is thought to be God the Holy Ghost/Spirit is in fact angels or spirits that God has created for different tasks. And we will see that throughout the Bible this Spirit beings has been sent down for different tasks.
For example:
1 Samuel 10:6
The Spirit of the LORD will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person.
Now in the following verse we see a very different role of "Spirit" it also proves that it is certainly not God the Holy Ghost, yet it clearly says, "Spirit from God" rather another spirit being, Satan, a Jinn:
1 Samuel 11:6
When Saul heard their words, the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he burned with anger.
 
We follow it up to the next one:
 
1 Samuel 19:9
But an evil spirit from the LORD came on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the lyre,
 
Jack you be the judge, with fairness and explain.
 
Now let us see how Quran clears up the confussion:
 
5:110  Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity.
 
For a Muslim there is no problem understanding this, when God says "He will strenthened....with holy spirit" it means what it means that God has power over holy spirit, and God will give that, because God can, thus holy spirit is under God's command and anyone under God's command is not God, simple as that.
 
 
16:102  Say, the holy spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
 
34:40 One Day He will gather them all together, and say to the angels, "Was it you that these men used to worship?"
41 They will say, "Glory to Thee! our (tie) is with Thee - as Protector - not with them. Nay, but they worshipped Jinn: most of them believed in them."
 
So, Jack it is our choice, but to worship that is subject to Allah or under His command that is not God, whether in OT, NT or Final Testament times. God is always One, none else equals Him, thus none else is worthy of worship, but Only Him.
 
Hasan
 


Edited by honeto - 31 October 2011 at 11:36am
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 31 October 2011 at 11:35am
Dear Isla,
 
Your two posts dated Oct. 30, one at 8:27 and one at 8:38, both show the quality of your posts.  They contain absolutely no evidence whatsoever, just like your assertions on this string.  Look at the two posting times for you last two posts:  8:27 and 8:38.  You just wrote stuff and took no time to use that marvelouse logic and intellect you claim to have.  No, both were thoughtless posts.  They are irritating as well.  I know that you can do better than this Isla (I'm cutting off the -m and the rest of your pen name "is Peace" because your posts are designed to inflame and irritate, not bring peace and understanding, and your rational is that you are "only treating others as they deserve."  You have said as much on multiple occasions.  If you want me to call you "IslamisPeace" in full, than you had better earn the reputation of bringing peace to those you address, and start behaving with the love that the God you claim to believe in and obey posesses.  Else, Isla is all you will get from me.
 
 
You said to Reepicheep, "Well, if you haven't been paying attention to this thread, then I can understand your comment." 
 
You see there?  You are way out of line.  Because indeed he has been paying attention.  Don't think he is alone in noticing the quality of your "evidence."  You have used dictionaries to claim that words in the Tanakh don't count as evidence when the Talmud indeed says they do.  You have posted verses from the Tanakh and claimed they meant things they didn't say, while claiming other verses didn't really mean what they clearly did say.  He is right in that you have presented no evidence of contradiction.  I am not defending Reepicheep.  I am simply letting you know that he is not alone in what he see out of you.  Your are loosing this debate badly, Isla.
 
 
 
You (Isla) posted, "However, if you are paying attention, then you will that I have shown a few contradictions already regarding the covenant and the status of the Holy Spirit."  Yeah, rightLOL.
 
 
You (Isla) said, "Regarding the latter, Christians insist that the Holy Spirit is uncreated.  But, the Tanakh and Jewish tradition maintain that the Holy Spirit was actually created on the first day."  Yeah,right.LOL  Then you said, "See my rebuttal to Jack above for the evidence." Oh, help me...LOLLOLLOL You are funnier than Bozo! 

 
Then you posted (Isla), "Actually, I am quite exhilarated at your silence!"  It's the calm before the storm, my friend.
 
Then you typed, "It shows me that you have been stupefied and vexed by the evidence."  LOLLOLLOL  Somebody stop me from this.LOL I can't stop.  Oh Isla, you are sooooo funy!LOLLOLLOL 
 
Isla:  "But, instead of admitting your error and trying to learn the truth, you let your arrogance get the best of you."  What ever you sayBig%20smile.
 
Isla:  "You have resorted to clownish behavior instead of actual discussion.  I love it!"  Yup!  I took my ques from you!
 

Isla:  "Your silence on the issue of the Holy Spirit being created is made even more noticeable by your attempt to bring Kish's (who is taking an intellectual beating on another thread already) red herring post back into the mix."
 
Isla, what you consider silence because of being, what did you call it, "vexed" is actuall the sound of study and thinking, something you regularly fail to do.  Oh, and then you say that you are the logical one, which tells a lot about what you think is logic, too. Just look at how you fired off two posts in just 10 minutes on an issue where you consider logic and evidence to be so critical.  Nobody takes you seriously, Isla.  But you do ask questions that one doesn't encounter in normal daily life, and this has value for those of us who care to search out the truth.  I've learned a lot about Islam, Judaism, and Christianity by working through these questions.
 
 
Isla:  "There was no point of responding to that post because it was completely unrelated to the thread (plus it was plagiarized as per Kish's usual tactic)."
 
And this, Isla, is how you go about avioding posts that conain question or evidence that you are afraid to deal with.  Kish's post dealt with exactly what your post is supposed to be about.  His evidence cut through to the heart of the matter, which is that while you are trying to prove that the Holy Bible (Tanakh plus NT) is in contradition and therefore a badly altered text, those personal friends of Muhammad who knew of the Holy Bible  dissagree with you.  That alone should end this discussion.  You have brushed the issue aside because you know the posistion it puts you in and you are hoping that we will follow you away from this evidence.  No such luck, big boy.  I challange you to address Kish and his evidence with a real and researched response.  No more of this pamsy behavior of yours.  Cowboy up, big guy!
 
 
Dr. Isla the phsycologist speaks:  "But the fact that he tried shows that this thread is causing much discomfort for the Christians on this forum.  None of you can seem to respond to the evidence.  I think Kish actually feels that the issue of the trinity is at least plausible since he considers it to be a foreign concept which was not taught by Jesus or the disciples.  But of course, the rest of the topic (the Tanakh contradicting the NT) is uncomfortable for him as a Christian." Yeah, rightLOLLOLLOL.  More Isla hot airLOL.
 
Allah's blessings, Isla,
 
Jack Catholic 
 


 


Edited by Jack Catholic - 31 October 2011 at 11:41am
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