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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
Message Icon Topic: My thoughts My view - part 2 Post Reply Post New Topic
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 19 September 2005 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Dayem

i dont think i hv read all u wrote very carefully, but only the verse of quran and footnotes u provided.

Then how can you help me ?  

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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ummziba
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Quote ummziba Replybullet Posted: 20 September 2005 at 12:11pm

Dear Angel,

O.K., here is one small part of your concerns.  You posted:

From: Sahih Bukhari:
Volume 3, Book 43, Number 622:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs; whoever brought his (Muslim) brother out of a discomfort, Allah will bring him out of the discomforts of the Day of Resurrection, and whoever screened a Muslim, Allah will screen him on the Day of Resurrection . "


I guess greatly why the muslim leaders in the Middle East hold onto their brothers and not hand them over to the opposition to be prosecuted or the leaders to prosecute and bring justice to them for wrong doing on both muslims and non muslims.

Now, I am not a scholar, nor do I even pretend to understand the complicated world of the science of ahadith.  But I think the two following Qur'an verses will help explain the Muslim stance on justice.  I believe the hadith quoted above does not instruct Muslims to obstruct justice or protect Muslims who have committed wrongs from justice.  I believe that the above hadith instructs Muslims to protect one another from oppressors.  There is a big difference from protecting someone from an oppressor and trying to obstruct justice.

Here are the two verses, and I hope this does help you see a bit more clearly on this issue at least:

"O ye who believe!  Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both.  Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily, Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do."  Qur'an an nisa 4:135

"O ye who believe!  Stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice.  Be just: that is next to Piety: and fear Allah.  For Allah is well acquainted with all that you do."  Qur'an al ma'idah 5:8

To protect someone from oppression is doing justice, to sheild someone from justice goes against Allah's words in the Qur'an.  Does this help?

Peace, ummziba.

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ummziba
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Quote ummziba Replybullet Posted: 20 September 2005 at 12:33pm

Dear Angel,

Again, I am not a scholar, nor even a very learned person, but, I do want to try to help you understand the things that are puzzling you.  So, I'll attempt my humble opinion on what you said here:

I'll ask again, why is there no action taken against the terrorists from muslims ?

I would have to ask you, what is it you feel we Muslims should be doing as action against the terrorists?  There is no world governing body for Muslims, the caliphate disappeared with Ottoman Turkey.  Now, we have many Muslim countries, but, as I am sure you know, they are not governed by Islamic law (with the possible exception of Iran, which has twisted Islamic law into a mess).

So, one can hardly expect the corrupt dictatorships, false kingdoms and puppet governments of the Muslim countries to do anything about this (certainly not in the name of Islam!).  Who would take action against the terrorists then?  Ordinary Muslims?  How?  The United Nations?  Don't hold your breath on that one!  A rogue army of fed up Muslims who want to put things right?  In your dreams .  Wouldn't such an army be considered mercenaries or terrorists by many anyway?  And who would lead them?  Pay for them?  Organize them?

Do you see where I am going with this?  The only thing the average Muslim can do is to continue to spread the word of Islam and show by our example how Muslims are supposed to act.  What else would you have us do?

Angel, there are many, many good Muslims in the world.  The sad part is, we seldom hear about them, the news sells a lot more advertising with sensational stories.  I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make and I hope I haven't come across as a smart aleck - I am only trying my best to help you with your concerns.

In my humble opinion,  when it comes to terrorists, many people worry too much about, think too much about, pay too much attention to, focus on them more than they are worth, and get way too out of kilter over them.  And that is exactly what the terrorists probably want us to do.  Life goes on.....

Peace, ummziba.

 

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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 20 September 2005 at 1:42pm

Hi Angel,

Don't you consider Leaders of Pakistan any Muslims? or don't you consider the present government of Afghanistan Muslim? On the same note, don't you know that its 90% of Iraqi Muslims who get killed in the bomb attacks either by the rebels or by the occupying forces?

I can only say that day to day observations are not substantiated by your assertions. Yes, terrorists do take the support of religion. But this is not unique to Muslims only. At this time the word 'terrorists' circulate around Muslims as 'Islamic terrorists', whereas in the past, it used to be called as "crusaders" etc.

The verses from the quran are simply presented out of context and hence misinterpreted.  Yes, Quran does guide us to fight, but to fight against the agressor. Similarly, when in the strategem of war, Muslims should steadfast and not turn away; and similarly many more guiding principles. Of course, fighting had been in the past, fighting is in the present and fighting shall remain in the future as well with the history of man kind. So, how can Muslims be negelected for this important part of human life. But again, its only against the agressors.

I hope I have clearified some of your misconceptions about guidance of war with regard to Quran. If not, feel free to ask more. Till then, take care.

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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2005 at 9:37am
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

The verses from the quran are simply presented out of context and hence misinterpreted. 

how, where, show me, give examples, put the correct meaning where it is wrong (if wrong)

Do actually know everything properly in all I have presented in my thoughts my view ?

If things are wrong, then correct it, telling me that verses are misinterpreted and/or out of context, doesn't show me anything or teaches me what is the correct meaning.

I hope I have clearified some of your misconceptions about guidance of war with regard to Quran. If not, feel free to ask more. Till then, take care.

Actually you really haven't cleared up anything  

And by the way, ALL my questions and queries are in the post, the post is one big query  

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2005 at 9:57am
Originally posted by ummziba

Do you see where I am going with this?  The only thing the average Muslim can do is to continue to spread the word of Islam and show by our example how Muslims are supposed to act.  What else would you have us do?

I understand your point, So does this render the points and views in my posts all wrong ? Are all the points from quran and hadith wrong? Do all need extensive explanation and none not taken literally ?

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2005 at 10:02am
Originally posted by ummziba

"O ye who believe!  Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both.  Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily, Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do."  Qur'an an nisa 4:135

"O ye who believe!  Stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice.  Be just: that is next to Piety: and fear Allah.  For Allah is well acquainted with all that you do."  Qur'an al ma'idah 5:8

To protect someone from oppression is doing justice, to sheild someone from justice goes against Allah's words in the Qur'an.  Does this help?

Peace, ummziba.

yeah a bit

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2005 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

The verses from the quran are simply presented out of context and hence misinterpreted. 

how, where, show me, give examples, put the correct meaning where it is wrong (if wrong)

Do actually know everything properly in all I have presented in my thoughts my view ?

If things are wrong, then correct it, telling me that verses are misinterpreted and/or out of context, doesn't show me anything or teaches me what is the correct meaning.

First of all one must try to understand the difference between the Quranic verses and the Ahadith. Without realizing this difference, one is bound to understand things contrary to the actual. For example, here is the mistake, when you say

" ...

How can God advocate the killing of a people ? such as the Jews and as the quran verse seems to mention: "

and then you put forward this

"From: Sahih Bukhari:
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

"

It must be realized that not everything in Arabic is Quran. Here is another similar mistake once your say

"How is that teaching tolerance ?
Also this verse below from: http://www.al-bukhari.org/Chapter4.html

10. Inna allatheena kafaroo lan tughniya AAanhum amwaluhum wala awladuhum mina Allahi shayan waolaika hum waqoodu alnnari
Those people who have adopted the path of infidelity (Kufr), neither their wealth nor their offspring will benefit them against Allh. They will become fuels of the Hell.

11. Kadabi ali firAAawna waallatheena min qablihim kaththaboo biayatina faakhathahumu Allahu bithunoobihim waAllahu shadeedu alAAiqabi
Their end will be like, as it has been of the companions of Fir'aun and of the disobedients before them that they denied the revelation (Ayt) of Allh -- the consequence was that Allh caught them for their sins and that Allh is Severe in punishment.

"

It is this misunderstanding of Quran, that probably led you make a false opinion about Islam. If you simply correct this problem, that is, to seperate Quranic verses from others, it would be rather easier for me to explain the verses of Quran that you think are not tolerent from human perspective.

I hope I have clearified some of your misconceptions about guidance of war with regard to Quran. If not, feel free to ask more. Till then, take care.

Actually you really haven't cleared up anything  

And by the way, ALL my questions and queries are in the post, the post is one big query  

As you amalgamated everything on Islam, suffice was for me to show there are many within the Islam fighting against the evil of extremism. If your questions get specific, so shall my response be.



Edited by AhmadJoyia
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