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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Larry: "Were there more than one version of Quran" Post Reply Post New Topic
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2011 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by Jack

I challanged you to, "Provide a Surah from each of the four Qur'ans that Uthman burned," the same Surah that you claim to be simply a different reading in each, to prove that they said the same things.


Yes, and I threw back your "challange" (sic) because of its ridiculous foundation.  I still have no idea which "four Qur'ans" you are talking about, since there is only one Qur'an and always has been, even in the different mushafs of the Companions.  If you are referring to the different mushafs, then you need to say so.  By saying "four Qur'ans" you are exposing the bias and ignorance in your reasoning as there are no such "four Qur'ans".  So, if you are indeed asking about the different mushafs (of which there were many, not just four as you so ignorantly claimed Wink), then I can say that your pathetic "challange" (sic) has already been answered several times!  I have even provided an example of the differences.  I mentioned to Larry that Von Denffer said that the mushaf of Ibn Mas'ud contained, for example, 101 differences, which were all due to spelling or grammar changes.  As an example, Ibn Mas'ud spelled "Al-Baqara" (which is the standard) as "Al-Baqira".  This would be like spelling "donut" as "doughnut" in English (both of which are acceptable) or in your case, spelling "challenge" as "challange" (the latter of which is incorrect LOL).

As an added example, take the manuscript DAM 01.27.1, which as I pointed out in the other thread, contained as the "scriptio inferior" the mushaf of a Companion of the Prophet and as the "scriptio superior" as the Uthmanic standard.  According to Sadeghi and Bergmann:

"...textual criticism suggests that the standard version [of Uthman ] is the most faithful representation, among the known codices, of the Qurʾān as recited by the Prophet. [...] The remarkably few and minor skeletal-morphemic differences among the codices ʿUtm̠ ān sent to the cities is another indication of the care that was put into the process of standardization" ("The Codex of a Companion of the Prophet and the Quran of the Prophet", Arabica, p. 414).  

They also provide examples of the differences between the scriptio inferior and the scriptio superior (all of which are due either to spelling or grammar), such as:

2:217 -

Scriptio superior - qitālin fīhi

“They ask you about the holy month—fighting in it.”


Scriptio inferior - (wa)-ʿan qitālin fīhi

“They ask you about the holy month and about fighting in it.”
(Ibid., p. 361).

As you can, the difference is negligible. 

Originally posted by Jack

Neither you, nor your so-called Scholars who have studied up on the issue, can prove it because Uthman destroyed the evidence.


LOL More nonsense as I have already pointed out numerous times that the contents of those personal codices have been preserved in the writings of the scholars of Islam.  The above examples serve as direct proof of the absurdity of your claim.  What else can one expect from the blind? 

Your pathetic conspiracy theory is what is unprovable and neither you nor your pseudoscholars have been able to provide any support for your hearsay claims.  Therefore, your "critique" (ha ha, hee hee) of myself and the scholars that I have quoted is laughable.  Pardon me while I laugh...LOL...there, that was nice.

And once again I ask: why did you not question the credentials of the "Harvard House" guy but you did for Dr. Al-Imam?  Why the double standards?  What "credentials" (if any) does HH have that made you blindly accept everything he claimed?  And most importantly, which side do you think carries more weight?  This is not a trick question! Big%20smile

Originally posted by Jack

And your disrespect is clearly a way of trying to scare Larry and I into running away rather than pressing on with what common sence tells us is the truth.  Sorry, IslamisPeace, but you are loosing this little argument very badly.  You have no actual evidence.  All you have is what others have said who also have no evidence.  All you and the scholars you quote have is assumption, which we all know is a fancy word for guesswork.  You are not convincing anyone, IslamisPeace, and your rudeness is proof that you know you that you are failing to convince anyone.


LOL If you say so, papa bear.  Actually, the only ones I am not "convincing" are people like you and Larry, the biased boneheads who feign objectivity but who lack it completely.  But this was expected.  I did not expect the two of you to accept the strong evidence from the beginning because I know you two all too well.  As it happens, I sent my article to two friends of mine, one a Catholic convert to Islam and the other an Evangelical Christian.  I asked both for their opinions.  Both felt that I supported my arguments well using authentic sources.  So, you see, I am indeed convincing some people!  Praise be to Allah!

Of course, as I have said many times already, I could care less if I can't convince your kind.  That is not my goal in life nor does my "failure" to convince you keep me up at night, so don't flatter yourself!  Wink

Originally posted by Jack

Your ranting and raving about "pseudo-scholars" at Harvard House ignores the fact that what is in the article is also included in many other sources, such as a book I have at home, and in many other articles on the internet, as well as many encyclopedias.  You speak about my "st**idity and ignorance," then you turn around and ask what 4 Qur'ans Larry and I are talking about.  All you have to do is read the posts we wrote that inspired you to begin this string of posts, and there we name the 4 Qur'ans by their authors, and you even discuss them.  Now here your question, "What "four Qur'ans" are you talking about?" truly shows your (what words did you use) "st**idity and ignorance."


What is in the article from HH was refuted using the same sources he selectively used.  And he did not provide any scholarly references, only his own claims and conspiracy theories.  Your argument that "what is in the article is also included in many other sources, such as a book I have at home, and in many other articles on the internet, as well as many encyclopedias" is a childish one.  First of all, you once again resort to vague references.  Which book are you talking about?  What encyclopedias?  Care to give any references?  Second, are these "sources" written by scholars in their fields or self-professed scholars such as our anonymous friend HH? 

Just because HH makes the same claims as other as of yet unnamed sources does not clear him/her of academic fraud.  I even gave examples of how he selectively used Al-Masahif and Al-Tamhid to try to prove his conspiracy theory.  This is what nutcases like him/her with no credentials do.  They cherry-pick from their sources, which is why their "articles" are not peer-reviews (because if they were, they would be rejected as inaccurate).









Edited by islamispeace - 08 October 2011 at 6:06pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2011 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by Larry

I was just pointing out how ludicrous your statement was.


Actually, by doing so, you only "pointed out" your own "ludicrousness" as you did not explain on what grounds you found my statement "ludicrous".  In a court of law, when a lawyer says "objection!", he/she has to explain the  grounds for the objection.  In the same way, when you said "LOL", you did not provide any evidence to back up your one word response.  As such, I rightfully ridiculed your post as indicative of your desperation.  Now, if you feel my ridicule was in haste, here is your chance to explain why using supporting evidence.  I said that the scholars of Islam and even non-Muslim scholars (like Burton and Sadeghi) are in agreement that the Qur'an has been preserved.  If you object counselor, the provide the grounds for your objection!  LOL

Originally posted by Larry

Pardon me if I pass on your invitation.


Of course, sir!  This is typical of you!  LOL

Do you honestly think that I am going to hold you after all we have been through?  I feel hurt, Larry! 

But seriously, do you really think that I care if you accept my "invitation" or not?  For God's sake man, it took forever just to get you to offer your "brilliant" (cough) insights on this topic (and that was only after a little gentle reminder from the moderator to stop interjecting different topics in the Gospel evolution thread)!  So, whether you accept the invitation or not, so be it.  I will just have to go on without the pleasure of your company.    Be strong, islamispeace, be strong...for Larry has left us!      Boo hoo...Cry
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2011 at 4:03am
islamispeace,

   Why did I say your post was ludicrous? Because you say, "The scholars of Islam are UNITED in their acceptance of the Qur'an and EVEN non-Muslim scholars feel the same way."

   How ELSE would a "scholar of Islam" view the Qur'an? And you neglected to say that SOME non-Muslim scholars feel the same way.

   There are many non-Muslim scholars who find a lot of faults and discrepancies in the Qur'an. Especially in the case of how the "People of the Book" are to be viewed and treated. The Qur'an is all over the map on that subject.

   You are a little too fast and easy with your so-called "facts."

   And your last statement shows just how thin your skin really is. If it didn't bother you I doubt you would go to such lengths to say why it doesn't.

   Do you think that you can give it a rest now?

Larry

Edited by Larry - 09 October 2011 at 4:35am
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2011 at 2:07pm
Dear IslamisPeace,
 
Larry and I both offered solid challanges and all you responded with was a little bit of rhetoric and a whole lot of bad manners and laughter.  Perhaps your inclindation to intertainment at the expence of others is the only reason why you are on the forum.  So go get your jollies elsewhere.  I do hope Larry walks off your lousy string and leaves you to post to your two most loyal audience members, you and yourself.
 
Amazing how you behave when someone asks you simple questions and you feel backed up against the wall with no way to provide a straightforward answer that is believable and contains common sense.
 
Allah bless you,
 
Jack Catholic
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2011 at 3:13pm
Jazakallah,
let us see if Jack and Larry come up with something real or just the same old....
Hasan 
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2011 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by Larry

Why did I say your post was ludicrous? Because you say, "The scholars of Islam are UNITED in their acceptance of the Qur'an and EVEN non-Muslim scholars feel the same way."

   How ELSE would a "scholar of Islam" view the Qur'an? And you neglected to say that SOME non-Muslim scholars feel the same way.


But Larry, you used "Harvard House's" article because of its references to Islamic sources like Al-Masahif, Al-Tamhid and Sahih Bukhari, correct?  Yet, the scholars of Islam, who have poured over the thousands of volumes of works like and including the three mentioned, came to a unanimous decision which differs from the ramblings of pseudoscholars like the "HH" guy. 

You say that some non-Muslims scholars agree with the Islamic scholars.  Well if this is true, wouldn't the very fact that even "some" non-Muslim scholars agree with the official Islamic position lend credence to that position?  Also, since you say that some non-Muslim scholars do not agree with the scholars of Islam, the logical question is can you name any such scholars and refer to their works?  What do they say?  

Originally posted by Larry

And your last statement shows just how thin your skin really is. If it didn't bother you I doubt you would go to such lengths to say why it doesn't.

   Do you think that you can give it a rest now?


Give it a rest?  Not on your life!  I am having way too much fun exposing the flaws in your arguments.  LOL
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2011 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Dear IslamisPeace,
 
Larry and I both offered solid challanges and all you responded with was a little bit of rhetoric and a whole lot of bad manners and laughter.  Perhaps your inclindation to intertainment at the expence of others is the only reason why you are on the forum.  So go get your jollies elsewhere.  I do hope Larry walks off your lousy string and leaves you to post to your two most loyal audience members, you and yourself.
 
Amazing how you behave when someone asks you simple questions and you feel backed up against the wall with no way to provide a straightforward answer that is believable and contains common sense.
 
Allah bless you,
 
Jack Catholic


LOL More papa bear lecturing and no rebuttal to the solid facts given in response to your so-called "solid challanges (sic)".  Didn't I provide two examples of the differences between the personal codices and the Uthamic standard?  Whose back is against the wall?  And common sense?  I didn't think you two had it?         
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2011 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by honeto

Jazakallah,
let us see if Jack and Larry come up with something real or just the same old....
Hasan 


Salam brother.  I guess the recent posts by "Ren and Stimpy" didn't disappoint!  What do you think?  LOL 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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