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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Larry: "Were there more than one version of Quran" Post Reply Post New Topic
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2011 at 1:30pm
Jack,
we have with us the book of Allah, the Quran revealed through angel Gabriel to beloved, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). If this was not the case you would have found in it some discrepancies.
It (the Quran) says one thing, and you do not find a conflict about that in it.
For example, it say: God is One, there is not conflict in it throughout. It says Mohammed, Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Noah (pbut) are Allah's messengers. There is nothing that contradict that. It says, everything that is created serves Allah. There is nothing in it that is not inconsistent with that claim. It says that Salvation is for those who believe in Allah, work righteousness, and seek Allah's forgiveness. There is nothing that contradict that claim.
I believe if there was any human hand in it's contents, it would in some way be inconsistent with those claims like some other books do the Bible to name one that I know of.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 21 November 2011 at 1:32pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Jack Catholic
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 26 November 2011 at 6:13am
So, IslamisPeace, Hasan,
 
Just produce the 4 "personal coppies" (1)Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud, (2)Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, (3)Ubayy B. Ka'ab and (4)Muadh bin Jabal for all to see for themselves.This will clear it all up...
 
Blessings,
 
Jack Catholic
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 30 November 2011 at 3:32pm
Jack,
I think you have realized that in the times we live it is not possible so thus you ask for it. I think I have offered a much more realistic and true way to sort things out. Since we both live in times more than 1400+ year after Allah revealed the Final Testament to the Porphet (pbuh), it seems insincere to be asking for things you have been asking in order to really know the truth while we have only one thing that can prove or disprove your objection to it, the Quran itself.
Remember, being honest I offered the same criteria for figuring the Bible alterations by examining the book itself, its contents.
So here is a good chance for you to take this opportunity in order to really know the truth of the matter rather than just for the matter of keep argument going.
The Quran, as we have it today is the holy word of God, if it's not we can easily figure that out, as with other books.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 30 November 2011 at 3:35pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2012 at 1:00am
Hasan,

   Jack asked you to produce the 4 "personal copies." 1. Abdullah Ibn Masud, 2. Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudaifah, 3. Ubayy b. Ka'ab, 4. Muadh bin Jabal."

    You replied, "Jack, I think you have realized that in the times we live it is not possible so thus you ask for it.

   1. What did you mean by "...in the times we live in it is not possible..."?

   2. You said that "the Prophet allowed several Companions to have their own manuscripts (collection of fragments.)" Are you saying that the Companions manuscripts were simply incomplete fragments of the Qur'an? Why would the Prophet allow this?

   3. The "Kufan Codex" of Abdullah Ibn Masud, Muhammad's personal servant, differed in the order of the Surahs and did not have Chapters 1, 113, and 114 of the "official" copy of the Qur'an.

   4. You said earlier that "Ibn Masud was well within his right to compile his personal copy any way he wanted. It was for his PERSONAL (emphasis yours) use."

   Are you saying that Ibn Masud simply compiled his version of the Qur'an in a haphazard way, leaving out Chapters 1, 113, 114, simply because because it was his "personal" copy and not meant to be read by anyone else?

   5. Ubayy b Ka'ab, Muhammad's secretary after Muhammad came to Medina, had a version that differed from the "official" Qur'an of Uthman because it had two additional chapters; Surat Al-Khal and Surat Al-Afd. Ubayy died during the reign of Umar, so he was not alive when Uthman burned his version of the Qur'an.

   I haven't really seen anyone explain these two variant writings, or omissions, and why they are not in the "official" Qur'an. These are contents of the various texts, not mere changes in pronunciation and recitation or dialects.

   6. You also earlier said that the Qur'an has no discrepancies, yet the Qur'an varies widely in it's pronouncements about the role and status of the "Peoples of the Book" and how they are to be seen and treated by Muslims. Why the remarkably striking differences?

Larry

Edited by Larry - 07 February 2012 at 1:24am
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Kish
 
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 26 January 2012 at 5:42am
Larry and Jack I love these questions that have been presented. They are precise and to the point, if they would answer them that would clear up many things

Also, how do Muslims reconcile their position with Allah’s claim in the Quran that “there is no changing the words of God”?

Why did Ibn Ma'sud refuse to hand over his copy for destruction?

How do we know that 'Uthman's copy was better than any of the others? There is even evidence that changes to the Qur'an continued after the time of 'Uthman.

Both the Qur'an and the Sunna give evidence that some of the Qur'an was lost, forgotten, or abrogated.
Some Muslims are even of the conviction spurious verses have been added.

There are Hadiths which refer to suras which are not in the modern Qur'an. Surely this indicates that the Qur'an has changed since the time of these Hadiths.

By simply comparing existing manuscripts, it can be shown that not all Qur'an manuscripts are the same.

Why are some of the oldest manuscripts not photographically reproduced and made available to the public and the scholars. Why not start with the Topkapi manuscript in Istanbul, the Taschkent manuscript, and the two old manuscripts in Cairo and Damascus. They are not Uthmanic manuscripts as some believe, but they are quite old. And then, publish them together in a format that makes it easy to compare them, or even better, listing all the differences between the texts, like it is done for the critical editions of the Bible text.

An Extensive Textual Comparison of the Quran

Therefore, the Qur'an has not been perfectly preserved as Muslims love to claim.


Edited by Kish - 27 January 2012 at 6:15am
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iec786
 
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2012 at 10:39pm
Dear Isla, and an other Muslims reading this string,

For the benefit of all non-Muslims reading this string, produce the texts of the four Qur'ans ("personal copies"[IMG]http://www.islamicity. (1)Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud, (2)Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, (3)Ubayy B. Ka'ab and (4)Muadh bin Jabal.
Show that they ideed are basically the same as the Holy Qur'an that is considered THE Holy Qur'an sent by Allah through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad.  This would solve a lot of confusion, now, wouldn't it?
Jack Catholic[

I think you are mistaken when you say that the MUSLIMS have four Quraans.

could you tell us when were they reveald and were they revealed?and who revealed this Quraans?

What you are telling us that the King James is one book the Rheims Bible is another the new international version is another etc.   

Edited by iec786 - 06 February 2012 at 10:45pm
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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 07 February 2012 at 1:10am
Hasan,

   Haven't heard from you in a while. I was wondering why you haven't responded to the six questions I asked in my Jan 23 posting above? The questions are specific and direct, but it seems that there is a reluctance to respond to them.
   If you find the time I would very much like to hear from you in regard to the six questions I asked you.
   You stated earlier (above) that, "Short, factual, simple and to the point that's what my posts are all about."
   Glad to hear that, looking forward to your response. Hope all is well for you.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 07 February 2012 at 1:22am
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2012 at 11:39am
how do Muslims reconcile their position with Allah’s claim in the Quran that “there is no changing the words of God”?


Where is the change???
You know the English language better then i do so if i write,the man slept on the bd.You as an English expert should know that bd stands for bed.my word was a shortened version of the word you should have known that or you just playing st**id.The word tomato, potato are all examples of different people writing and spelling in different ways,and likewise pronounce them differently.even in some of you states in America .Now to bounce that off as different Quraans that is called hogwash like what you Americans think of Sadams wmd total bull biscuits.
please if you do not understand Arabic ask and we can get someone to give you lessons.but to come with half truths leaves a lot to be desired.

If you really want to argue then we can look at the different Bibles,The Jehovahs witnesses claim that their are 50 000 errors in the Bible.could we discuss them.?     
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