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Interfaith Dialogue
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 07 December 2012 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


The Koran and the earliest Muslims did not believe the Bible was corrupted. Muslims may be surprised to learn that, contrary to popular belief, the Koran actually says nothing about the corruption of the Bible. It may also surprise Muslims that historically, the first Muslim to trash the Bible was Ibn-Khazem, in 1064 AD.http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-koran-bible.htm(Aug. 11, 2012, notes)




Caringheart,
you are barking up the wrong tree.
The fact is that the Qur'an teaches and Muslims believe that the Bible is corrupted, changed, altered, added to, subtracted and so on. This claim is backed by so much evidence recorded in history, by material facts as well as scholarship.
I, after reading the Bible myself have confirmed it's inconsistency proving that it is no more pure word of God.
As far as your assumption that the Quran did not believe the Bible to be corrupt, I will say this. The Quran is a divine revelation, it's teachings are very clear when it comes to things that are important to each believer.
Status of previous prophets and books is clearly written in it. I will post here the verses that will make it clear to you what it teaches about them. We have done this before, but you seem to have short memory or something else is on your mind. Sorry, but I am straight forward on this matter, it is such a matter.

3:187 (Y. Ali) And remember Allah took a covenant from the people of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made!
Al Maidah (5):12 God did aforetime take a Covenant from the Children of Israel......(13) their hearts grew hard. They changed the words from their places and forgot a good part of the messsage that was sent them...........
14 From those who call themselves Christians we did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them.........soon will God show them what it is they have done.
15. O people of the Book (Jews and Christians) there hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you that you used to hide in the book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary."
There hath come to you from God a new light and a perspicuous Book.
16 Wherewith God guides all who seek His good pleasure, to ways of peace and safety, and leads them out of darkness by His will, Unto the light-guide them to a path that is straight.

So, I am not sure from where you get your information, and we need not anyone's testimony when it is all present in the Quran openly and clearly. What I presented to you is the facts, and I am a Muslim, rest is up to you.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 07 December 2012 at 4:07pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 11 December 2012 at 10:40am
Originally posted by honeto

The fact is that the Qur'an teaches and Muslims believe that the Bible is corrupted, changed, altered, added to, subtracted and so on.
But yet you piggy-back-off the Bible to make a point. Which means you do believe, it's ONLY what YOU think you should believe and what you think you should not believe, how convenient athough unconvincing in your argument.
 

So by using the Quran to prove the Bible is corrupt by use of the Quran, is using circular reasoning (the reasoner begins with what he or she is trying to end up with) but you're insinuating how weak and indecisive God is to preserve his book when he said he would preserve it. 

Simply using the Quran does not prove the Bible wrong just because the Quran says so, it would say the Bible is corrupted in order to promote it's Quranic's belief, dahhh. That is just what Ibn Khazim did.
 
Originally posted by honeto

So, I am not sure from where you get your information, and we need not anyone's testimony when it is all present in the Quran openly and clearly. What I presented to you is the facts, and I am a Muslim, rest is up to you.
 
Wrong! Again, again and again the Quran and Muslims uses "the book" in order to confirm it's testimony without the book or Bible they would have NONE, ZERO!
 
On the other hand I AM GLAD TO SAY, the Holy Bible does not need the Quran OR any BOOK to confirm it's testimony!
 
At the end of the day that's ALL THAT MATTERS
 
The Bible stands on it's own merit unlike the Quran which needs the Bible to stay alive and to exist.
 
Kish
 
 
   


Edited by Kish - 11 December 2012 at 10:42am
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 1:15pm
Preface to the Revised Standard Version
(2nd ed., 1971)

The Revised Standard Version of the Bible is an authorized revision of the American Standard Version, published in 1901, which was a revision of the King James Version, published in 1611.


The King James Version has with good reason been termed “the noblest monument of English prose.” Its revisers in 1881 expressed admiration for “its simplicity, its dignity, its power, its happy turns of expression ... the music of it cadences, and the felicities of its rhythm.” It entered, as no other book has, into the making of the personal character and the public institutions of the English-speaking peoples. We owe to it an incalculable debt.

What a glowing tribute,but here is the shock!!!!!!

SIZE=6>Yet the King James Version has grave defects.Font Size 6
these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision

Because of unhappy experience with unauthorized publications in the two decades between 1881 and 1901, which tampered with the text of the English Revised Version in the supposed interest of the American public

Americans never seize to amaze me.

Edited by iec786 - 15 December 2012 at 1:19pm
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 7:09pm
Kish,
you have a memory of a hundred year old, yet you whine like a baby.
How many times, I have mentioned it, repeated it, but seems like you do not read, or like I have said above, you just cannot remember, getting old?
Our use of reference from the Bible is just for those of you who claim that it is your trusted source. Our Muslim's) trusted source is the Final Testament, the Quran. May I suggest you make a plaque of this above statement and place it somewhere so you can see it often.
We the believers in One God do not need to use the Bible for references.
I wish I had not read the Bible because I had more respect for it then because I only knew that it was also from God. Now after knowing what it contains, I cannot give it the same respect even if I want. And we have seen it throughout our study, how much in contrast it is to the qualities of the All Knowing.
Still if you can feel comfort in it, that's your choice, there is no compulsion, you will pay for what you do as each one of us for our own deeds and choices.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 15 December 2012 at 7:14pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2012 at 4:45am

Originally posted by honeto

Our use of reference from the Bible is just for those of you who claim that it is your trusted source. 

 

 . . . and you continue to put both feet in your mouth so let me remind you “old man” Muslims belief is that Islam is built on the foundation of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, remember? The Qur'an Mohammed recited claimed to agree with the Bible as per Ibn Khazim, remember. Muslims believe Allah revealed the Law to Moses, Psalms to David, messages too many other prophets, the Gospel to Jesus, remember? Are you new to Islam?

 

Oh yea, where did the Quran get beliefs such as a single Deity, creation events, prophets, sin, righteousness, Satan, Judgment Day, heaven and hell? Where did Muhammad get Biblical characters like Noah, Abraham, Moses, Solomon and Jesus from, remember?

 

Originally posted by honeto

Our use of reference from the Bible is just for those of you who claim that it is your trusted source. 

 

Obviously, it was everyone’s trusted source including Muhammad’s.

 

Quran 34:31 – Unbelievers (like yourself) REFUSED to believe it (The Bible)

 

Quran 4:162 – Those grounded in knowledge believe it (The Bible)

 . . . and my favorite of ALL Sura’s

Quran 40:70 – Judged for rejecting it (The Bible)

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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2012 at 7:30am
Originally posted by honeto

We the believers in One God do not need to use the Bible for references.
 
At least Muhammad did that as my quotes from the Quran shows. But many MODERN day Muslims on the otherhand, well, let me just say don't know what to believe when it comes to the Torah, Zabur and the Injil which is really sad. So let me just remind you all what YOUR Quran says . . . 
A1. Mary (Maryam) 19:12, Middle Meccan in -7 AH.

God says, "`Oh Yahya! (John the Baptist) take hold of the Book with might': and We gave him wisdom as a child."

A2. The Family of `Imran (Ali `Imran) 3:48, 2-3 AH.

The Angel Gabriel is speaking to Mary about Jesus before Jesus' birth and says: "And he (God) will teach him the book and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel"

A3. The Forbidding (Al-Tahrim) 66:12, 7 AH.

"and Mary (Jesus' mother)...believed in the words of her Lord and His Books"

A4. The Family of `Imran (Ali `Imran) 3:49-50, 2-3 AH.

Jesus says, "I have come to you...attesting to (the truth of) what is between my hands of the Torah, and to make lawful to you a part of that which is forbidden to you."

A5. The Battle Array (Al-Saff) 61:6, from 3 AH.

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: `Oh Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God to you, confirming that which IS between my hands from the Torah...'"

A6. The Table (Al-Ma'ida) 5:49, 10 AH.

"And in their footsteps (of Moses and the Jews) We sent Jesus the son of Mary, attesting to (the truth of) the Torah which was between his hands; and We gave him the Gospel - therein is guidance and light and attesting to (the truth of) the Torah which was between his hands: a guidance and an admonition to the righteous."

A7. 5:113.

"Then will God say, `O Jesus son of Mary! Recount my favor to you and to your mother when I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit, so that you spoke to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel...

We can only conclude from this that the True Unchanged Torah was present in the first century when Jesus lived.

Since the Sura of The Forbidding (Al-Tahrim) from 7 AH quoted above [A3] says that Mary believed in "His (God's) Books" (kutubihi), this must refer to the Books which the other Prophets brought to the Jews, as well as the Torah of Moses.

NOW LET ME SHOW YOU VERSES THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WERE LIVING DURING THE PERIOD BETWEEN JESUS AND MUHAMMAD

B1. The Table (Al-Ma'ida) 5:113-114, 10 AH.

"Then will God say, `O Jesus son of Mary! Recount my favor to you... Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel...

"And behold! I inspired the disciples (al-hawariyun) to have faith in Me and My apostle (Jesus). They said (to Jesus), `We have faith and (you must) bear witness that we are Muslims (submitted ones)."

B2. The Family of `Imran (Ali `Imran) 3:52-53, 2-3 AH.

"When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said, `Who will be my helpers to (the work of) God?' The disciples said, `We are God's helpers. We believe in God and (you must) bear witness that we are Muslims (submitted ones). "`Our Lord we believe in what You have revealed and we follow the apostle (Jesus).'"

B3. The Battle Array (Al-Saff) 61:14, 3 AH.

"O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of God: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the disciples, `Who will be my helpers for God?' The Disciples said, `We are God's helpers!' Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: but We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed."

VERSES SHOWING THAT THE TORAH AND THE GOSPEL WERE TRUE AND UNCHANGED AT THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD.

C1. The City of Saba (Saba) 34:31, Early Meccan.

"And the unbelievers say, `We will not believe in this Qur'an, nor in that which IS between his (its) hands (the Torah and the Gospel)'..."

Note: The CAPITAL LETTERS show verbs which are in the present tense for Muhammad and his people. Italics have been used for phrases speaking of groups of Jews or Christians at the time of Muhammad spoken of as believers or unbelievers in order to emphasize that there were always some true believers who would not have changed their own scriptures.

C2. The Originator of Creation (Fatir) 35:31, Early Meccan.

"That which we have revealed to you of the Book is the truth, attesting to (the truth of) that which IS between his (its) hands (the Torah and Gospel)..."

C3. Jonah (Yunus) 10:37, Late Meccan.

"This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than God; but it is a verification of that (the Torah and Gospel) which IS between his (its) hands, and the explanation of the book, wherein there IS no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds."

C4. Joseph (Yusuf) 12:111, Late Meccan.

"...It (the Qur'an) is not a fabricated story, but a verification of that (the Torah and Gospel) which IS between his (its) hands, a detailed explanation, a guide and a mercy to the people who believe."

C5. The Cattle (Al-An`am) 6:154-157, Late Meccan.

"Then We gave Moses the Book complete as to whatever is excellent, and explaining all things in detail, and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. And this (the Qur'an) is a Book which We have revealed, blessed: so follow it and be righteous, that you may receive mercy: lest you should say, `The Book was sent down to two peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study;' or lest you should say: `If the Book (Torah and Gospel) had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they.'"

C6. The Believer (Al-Mu'min) 40:69-70, Late Meccan.

"Do you (Muhammad) not see those who dispute concerning the signs of God? How are they turned away? Those who REJECT the Book, and that (book) with which We sent our apostles, they shall know when the collars shall be around their necks, and the chains, they shall be dragged along."

C7. Winding Sand Tracts (Al-Ahqaf) 46:12, Late Meccan.

"And before this was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: and this Book is a verification (of it) in the Arabic tongue to warn those who transgress and as glad tidings to the righteous."

C8. 46:29-30.

"Behold, We turned towards you a company of Jinns listening to the Qur'an...When the (reading) was finished they returned to their people as warners. They said, `O our people! we have heard a Book revealed after Moses attesting to (the truth of) that which IS between his (its) hands (the Torah) - guiding to the truth and to a straight path.'"

C9. The Heifer (Al-Baqara) 2:91, 2 AH.

"When it is said to them, `Believe in what God has sent down,' they say, `We believe in what was sent down to us (the Torah)': yet they reject all besides, even if it be truth attesting to (the truth of) what IS WITH THEM (the Torah)..."

C10. Family of `Imran (Ali `Imran) 3:3, 2-3 AH.

"It is He (God) who sent down to thee the Book in truth, attesting to (the truth of) what IS between its (his) hands (the Bible), and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel before this as a guide to mankind."

C11. The Women (Al-Nisa') 4:162-163, 5-6 AH.

"But those of them (the Jews) that are grounded in knowledge, and the believers, BELIEVE in that which has been revealed to you (Muhammad) and in that which has been revealed before you... We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the prophets after him, and We sent inspiration to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, and to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David we gave the Psalms."

C12. Repentance (Al-Tauba) 9:111, 9 AH.

"God has bought from the believers their selves and their wealth, and for them is the garden (of Paradise) if they fight in the ways of God: and whether they kill or are killed, the promise of God IS true in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an, and who is more faithful to his promise than God?"

C13. The Table (Al-Ma'ida) 5:51, 10 AH.

"To you (Muhammad) We revealed the book in truth, attesting to (the truth of) that which IS between his (its) hands from the scripture (the Torah and Gospel), and guarding it (wa muhaiminan `alaihi)..."

We find in these verses a strong testimony to the Torah and the Gospel as being true and present at the time of Muhammad.

In the Sura of Repentance, one of the last revelations given, it says, "The promise of God IS true in the Torah, the Gospel, and the Qur'an" [C12].

NOW THIS MIGHT SURPRISE YOU ALL -- HERE ARE VERSES WHERE MUHAMMAD ACTUALLY QUOTES OR APPEALS TO THE TORAH AND/OR THE GOSPEL.

D1. The Star (Najm) 53:33-38, Early Meccan.

"Do you (Muhammad) see the one who turns back? Gives a little, then hardens (his heart)? What has he knowledge of the unseen so that he can see? Nay, IS he not acquainted with what IS in the books of Moses and of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements? - namely that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another."

D2. The Poets (Al-Shu`ara') 26:192-197, Middle Meccan.

"Verily this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. The Spirit of faith came down upon your heart with it that you might be one of the warners in the plain Arabic tongue. And truly it IS in the Scriptures (Zubur) of the former people. IS it not a sign to them that the learned of the Children of Israel RECOGNIZE it."

D3. Ta-Ha 20:133, Middle Meccan from -7 AH.

"They (the Meccans) say, `Why does he not bring us a sign from his Lord?' What! Has not a clear sign come to them in what IS in the former pages (al-suhuf al-aulla )?"

According to Baidawi's commentary on this verse - The "former pages" refers to "the Torah and the Gospel and all the divine books."

D4. The Prophets (Al-Anbiya') 21:7, Middle Meccan.

"And before thee (Muhammad), We sent no one, except men, to whom We granted revelation. ASK (plural) the people of the Scripture message, if you don't know."

D5. The Prophets (Al-Anbiya') 21:105, Middle Meccan.

"Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): `My servants, the righteous, shall inherit the earth.'"

This is a direct quotation from Psalm 37:29 which reads, "The righteous shall inherit the earth and dwell therein forever." When considered with the preceding quotation from the same Sura (21:7), it is clear that, according to the Qur'an, God is quoting from the Psalms as still present and true at the time of Muhammad.

D6. Gold Adornments (Al-Zukhruf) 43:44-45, Late Meccan.

"The (Qur'an) is indeed a message for you (Muhammad) and your people, (all of) you shall be brought to account, and ASK those of our apostles whom we sent before thee, `Did We appoint any deities other than the Most Merciful whom they should worship?'"

According to Baidawi, Jelaleddin, and Yusuf Ali, "ask those of our apostles whom we sent before thee" means enquire of their people - those learned in their writings and doctrines. Therefore those writings and doctrines were clearly available in Muhammad's time.

D7. Jonah (Yunus) 10:94, Late Meccan.

"If you (Muhammad) are in doubt regarding that which We have revealed to thee, ASK those who READ the book from before you..."

D8. The Bee (Al-Nahl) 16:43-44, Late Meccan.

"And We have not sent before you (Muhammad) other than men to whom we granted revelation. And (all of you) ASK the people of the (Scripture) Message if you don't know."

D9. The Children of Israel (Bani Isra'il) 17:101, Late Meccan from -1 AH.

"To Moses We gave nine clear signs. ASK (O Muhammad) the Children of Israel..."

Both the Jews and Christians "READ the book" [D15], and "STUDY it earnestly" [D17].

There are some righteous Jews [D14] who GUIDE with truth and JUDGE by it [D13], and among the Jews and Christians is a people on the right course [D24].

Meccans are told, "ASK the People of the Scripture message if you don't know" [D4,D8], and "ASK those of our Apostles whom we sent" - that is ask their people who are learned in their writings and doctrines [D6].

Muhammad is told, "ASK those who READ the Book from before you, if you are in doubt" [D7], and "ASK the Children of Israel" about the nine clear signs given to Moses [D9].

According to other passages God repeats commands from the Torah, warning the Jews to JUDGE by them [D22], and quotes from the Psalms of David [D5]. He appeals to worshiping as the likeness of Muslim believers which is to be found in the Torah, and alludes to growing seed in the Gospel of Jesus as the likeness of believers from the Gospel [D20].

Muhammad tells the Jews to bring the Torah that "it might JUDGE between them" [D16]. On another occasion he tells them, "BRING the Torah and READ it if you are men of truth" [D18].

God asks Muhammad why the Jews come to him for judgement when "they HAVE the Torah in which IS the command of God" [D21]; and the Christians are told to "JUDGE by what God has revealed in it (the Gospel)" [D23].

God speaks of "the Torah and the Gospel that IS WITH THEM" [D12]. And in the last Sura which came to Muhammad - the Sura of the Table (Al-Ma'ida) from 10 AH - both Jews and Christians are told "you are not (founded) on anything until you PERFORM the Torah and the Gospel, and what was revealed to you from your Lord" [D24].

One of the commentators, Ibn Ishaq, relates the following Hadith concerning this passage [D24]. He says:

"Rafi son of Haritha and Salam Ibn Mashkum and two others, came to Muhammad and said to him, `O Muhammad! do you not claim to be a follower of the religion of Abraham and of his faith, and do you not believe in that which we have of the Torah and do you not testify that it is truly from God.'

"He replied, `Yes, in truth, but you have invented new doctrines, and you deny that which is therein regarding which a covenant was taken from you; and you conceal what you have been commanded to show to mankind. Therefore, I separate myself from your new ideas.'

"They said, `And as for us, we hold by that which is in our hands, and we follow the truth and guidance; and we do not believe in you and we will not follow you.'

"Then the great and glorious God revealed, `Say, O People of the Book! You are not (founded) on anything until you perform the Torah and the Gospel and what was revealed to you from your Lord.'"

If this hadith is true then, by itself, it proves that Muhammad believed in the Torah available to the Jews in Medina in 10 AH. And, even if it is not a strong hadith, it is an important testimony to the fact that Muslims of the first and second century of the Hejira knew about a valid Torah and Gospel with them in Arabia.

With or without the above hadith, the 24 passages which we have looked at in this section and the 13 from the previous section, make a total of 37 quotations which testify to a true Torah and Gospel being available to the people of Mecca and Medina while Muhammad was alive.

Muslims may claim that the true Torah and true Gospel, which were present in Arabia, are different from those presently available. But where are they?!? Surely some Muslim would have preserved such important books in one of the many Muslim libraries found throughout the Islamic world, even if only to help the Jews and Christians obey the Quranic instruction to "perform the Torah and the Gospel". Moreover, we would then be able to compare them with the copies which have been preserved by the Jews and Christians.

In fact, this is not the case. No such ancient copies have been preserved by the Muslims. Over the whole world there is only one Torah, which IS WITH both Jews and Christians, and one book called the Gospel. which IS WITH the Christians.

BOTTOM LINE, you don't have to believe me but al leat submit to God as the SCRIPTURES tells you to do.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 30 December 2012 at 1:21pm
Kish,
You and Caringheat play this cat and mouse game. I first replied to Caringheart regarding his claims that Quran does not say anything about corruption of the Bible. We have posted several verses from the Quran that clearly show that they were from God, but those who were inhcarge of them "forgot", "changed", "hide" from it. Those are the words of the Quran that you and others like you deny. And you all have a history of denials. You don't even believe your own Bible that tells you Jesus have a God, when he said "..to my God and your God". So, if you will deny your own book, imagine anything else is just waste of time.
The reason I believe and you confirmed is that Islam is not derived from Judaism and Christianity as you are teaching yourself.
Islam is from God, and so is Judaism and Christianity. That is a more appropriate statement, each through a teacher for a specified time. Now we live in the times under the teachings of prophet Mohammed (pbuh). That simple truth cannot go through your twisted thought?

May God have mercy on you and on Caringheart,
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 30 December 2012 at 2:00pm
Do you ever stop to consider why you are against what Jesus taught of Himself?  That you are against Jesus and His message, even though you try to claim Him?
Just wondering.
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