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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2012 at 12:25pm
Hi Kish,

As a Christian I can give you what the New Testament teaches, however, if you, --- like many others, believe that the NT has been changed, then you disbelieve in the revelations that Gabriel gave to Muhammad in 3:
3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

--- The 27 Books of the NT were 'confirmed' previous to 400 AD and were translated into many languages including Arabic, before 600 AD, --- so they, in Muhammad’s time had what we have.
--- How do you reason this out? --- If Gabriel revealed from God, to Muhammad, that the former Scriptures were true, --- can we be the judge and say, “I don’t know if I can trust what Gabriel said”?
--- How about 5:48 And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it.
--- Yusuf Ali: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.
--- If you don’t believe this revelation from God that He can ‘guard His Word’ --- then there is no use giving you guidance from the NT, is there?

However, --- it gives us clear instructions so I will share some directives for Christians:
--- John 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.”
--- John 5:23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
--- John 5:36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. --- (Compare Surah 3:48-51.)
--- John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
--- John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

--- Ephesians 5:17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,
19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
21 submitting to one another in the fear (reverence) of God.

--- 1 Thessalonians 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all.
15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all.
16 Rejoice always,
17 pray without ceasing,
18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not despise prophecies.
21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
22 Abstain from every form of evil.


Placid

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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2012 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by Placid

(Many who hide the truth of the Scripture, --- though they understand it, have not changed it. --- And if they repent and tell the truth, they will be forgiven.
But those who are disbelieving, or who don’t reveal the truth that they know, --- really condemn themselves, do they not?)


Very well said and welcome Placid. Like you I believe in the Old and New Testament, you cannot believe in one without believing in the other. In fact Moses, Isaiah and other Prophets spoke about the coming of Jesus and Jesus spoke of Moses and the Prophets of old, never condemning them OR their writings.

However, Muslims say they believe in the Gospel given to Jesus but not the Gospel written by Jesus disciples. Where they received that information from no one knows but earlier Muslims disagree. 

In fact the Dead Sea Scroll confirms the "Good News" or Gospel as being written from Jesus disciples in its entirety not that the Gospel was given to Jesus as they like to believe.

What proof does Islam have that Jesus wrote or was giving the Gospel? They don't even believe that it was Jesus who was crucified they think it was Judas. So, it's apparent that the information they have on the Gospel is totally inaccurate.
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 05 December 2012 at 8:21am
Hi Kish,

Thanks. --- God has given instructions to people in various ways, --- The Ten Commandments are a “Code of Ethics” for all people.
And as this says, He gave this first instruction to the Jewish people in Deuteronomy 6:
4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.
7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.

--- And further explanation of how to live out the ten laws, plus others, like verse 18, are given in Leviticus 19:
18 “You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.”
--- Notice that in the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20, ---the first four deal with loving and worshiping God. --- And the last six deal with relationship to others, (love your neighbor as yourself).

Jesus answered a lawyer this way in Matthew 22:
35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
--- This says that if we fulfill these two commandments, in relationship to God and others, we have “fulfilled” the Old Testament laws, and the teaching and instructions of the Prophets, --- because their prophesies are “fulfilled” in our Faith in, --- and obedience to God”

However, in daily life we have many decisions to make, --- but if we first pray, --- this allows God to guide us in both small and large decisions.

I want to give you an interesting example of a student’s dilemma, some years ago.
--- He was choosing what University to go to, so the thing to do was to apply to more than one, because some might reject his application.
So he applied to five, and since his academics were good, --- he would have been accepted by all five.
--- As a Christian, he asked, how can I determine God’s will for where I will continue my education? --- Simply, how can I know God’s will, in this choice of five?

--- An unbeliever might look at the favorable living conditions, the cost, the close facilities for sports and entertainment, --- and make his choice that way.

--- Some Christians who are really close to the Lord and have a ‘Talent of Discernment’ through the Holy Spirit, may simply number each of the five and ask God to indicate which one. --- Or he might hold up his five fingers and ask the Lord to ‘indicate’ which one, as he touches the end of each finger. --- The Lord can give a ‘sensation’ in one finger. --- (I know, this may sound strange, but in the OT it was called ‘laying out a fleece,’ and leaving the choice to God, --- and God still guides people this way. --- He can do ‘exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think’ --- we just have to trust Him)

However, with the student, this is how the process could have gone. --- First, --- go over each one specifically and ask the Lord to indicate the advantages or disadvantages of each one. --- In doing that, two may be eliminated. --- Then you ask the Lord again, “Which one?” --- (Since we are not robots) He may leave the choice to you, --- but you say again, “I want You to guide me,” --- So there may be an indication that another one may be eliminated. --- So the choice is now between two that are both good. --- Again, the question, “Which one?” --- And after seeing your desire for God’s choice, He may indicate it without further delay.

Somebody said, “God chooses the best for those who leave the choices to Him.”
Life is full of choices which become ‘tests’ of our faithfulness to God. --- If we choose selfishly, there may be consequences. --- If we let Him guide by His Spirit, He knows the way ahead, so can guide us His way.

Notice that it says in the Quran, --- that we have two angels in attendance to monitor us, whether we do good or evil, in Surah 50:
16-29 --- Since He knows everything we do, --- we do the best to have Him guide us, do we not?


Placid

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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2012 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by Kish

Originally posted by Placid

(Many who hide the truth of the Scripture, --- though they understand
it, have not changed it. --- And if they repent and tell the truth, they
will be forgiven.
But those who are disbelieving, or who don’t reveal the truth that they know, --- really condemn themselves, do they not?)
Very well said and welcome Placid. Like you I believe in the Old and New Testament, you cannot believe in one without believing in the other. In fact Moses, Isaiah and other Prophets spoke about the coming of Jesus and Jesus spoke of Moses and the Prophets of old, never condemning them OR their writings.However, Muslims say they believe in the Gospel given to Jesus but not the Gospel written by Jesus disciples. Where they received that information from no one knows but earlier Muslims disagree.  In fact the Dead Sea Scroll confirms the "Good News" or Gospel as being written from Jesus disciples in its entirety not that the Gospel was given to Jesus as they like to believe. What proof does Islam have that Jesus wrote or was giving the Gospel? They don't even believe that it was Jesus who was crucified they think it was Judas. So, it's apparent that the information they have on the Gospel is totally inaccurate.


Kish,
keep your eyes closed, if you think by doing so you can avert and hide from the cat eating you, we just have to see.
After learning so much on this forum, you go back to your old ways of brushing aside all the hard work replacing them with same old fantasies.
Jesus preached Gospel, according to your own Bible, may I ask, did he preach Gospel according to John, or Matthew, or Luke, or Mark, or Barnabbas , or Thomas, or Peter, or Judas. The historical record tells us that most of those were written way after Jesus.
The problem arise when we find verses in the Bible that talk about Jesus preaching Gospel.
Matthew 4:23
"And Jesus went about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the kingdom,..."
Can you without sidetracking answer that, so I can bring back to your memory all of what you have forgotten after learning.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 06 December 2012 at 3:19pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2012 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Kish,

As a Christian I can give you what the New Testament teaches, however, if you, --- like many others, believe that the NT has been changed, then you disbelieve in the revelations that Gabriel gave to Muhammad in 3:
3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

--- The 27 Books of the NT were 'confirmed' previous to 400 AD and were translated into many languages including Arabic, before 600 AD, --- so they, in Muhammad’s time had what we have.
--- How do you reason this out? --- If Gabriel revealed from God, to Muhammad, that the former Scriptures were true, --- can we be the judge and say, “I don’t know if I can trust what Gabriel said”?
--- How about 5:48 And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it.
--- Yusuf Ali: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.
--- If you don’t believe this revelation from God that He can ‘guard His Word’ --- then there is no use giving you guidance from the NT, is there?

However, --- it gives us clear instructions so I will share some directives for Christians:
--- John 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.”
--- John 5:23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
--- John 5:36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. --- (Compare Surah 3:48-51.)
--- John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
--- John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

--- Ephesians 5:17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,
19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
21 submitting to one another in the fear (reverence) of God.

--- 1 Thessalonians 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all.
15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all.
16 Rejoice always,
17 pray without ceasing,
18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not despise prophecies.
21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
22 Abstain from every form of evil.


Placid



Placid,
I know you are new to this forum, but his topic is not. The Quran confirms that previous prophets and the books given to them like Torah and Gospel were indeed were sent by God.
The Quran also tells us that for each time (determined by God) there was a prophet and a revelation.
The Quran also confirms that in case of OT and NT, people who were given the job to guard it, distorted it, changed it words from place to place, hiding what they did not like and passed along the one that favor their agenda.
O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary. There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-
3:187 (Y. Ali) And remember Allah took a covenant from the people of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made!

I will be back with more as I have to leave for home now!
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2012 at 8:05pm
The Koran and the earliest Muslims did not believe the Bible was corrupted. Muslims may be surprised to learn that, contrary to popular belief, the Koran actually says nothing about the corruption of the Bible. It may also surprise Muslims that historically, the first Muslim to trash the Bible was Ibn-Khazem, in 1064 AD.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-koran-bible.htm

(Aug. 11, 2012, notes)


Edited by Caringheart - 06 December 2012 at 8:05pm
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 07 December 2012 at 10:44am

Originally posted by Placid

-- The 27 Books of the NT were 'confirmed' previous to 400 AD and were translated into many languages including Arabic, before 600 AD, --- so they, in Muhammad’s time had what we have.
--- How do you reason this out? --- If Gabriel revealed from God, to Muhammad, that the former Scriptures were true, --- can we be the judge and say, “I don’t know if I can trust what Gabriel said”?

I agree that’s what I have been saying all along. But is that what modern Muslims believe, that the Gospel Muhammad had is the same one today, not at all. They say that it has been changed AND corrupted.

Originally posted by honeto

Jesus preached Gospel, according to your own Bible,

As Placid, I and many ancient Muslims believe the Gospel we have is the same Gospel Muhammad had.

So I’ll ask this question again, can anyone on this forum show us a Gospel according to something else other than the Gospel we have now? Of course not they would have to out date the Dead Sea Scroll and other archeological AND historical evidence.

So instead some Muslims say “Jesus preached Gospel, according to your own Bible” Muslims want so bad the Gospel say and confirm the Quran. But the Quran disagrees with why Jesus was born of a virgin, his ministry, him being the son of God that salvation is only through Jesus, his death on a torture stake by his enemies and his resurrection into heaven and being Kings of Kings.

Although Jesus and his followers preached this same message Muhammad and his Quran disagrees on just these basic items.

Originally posted by honeto

may I ask, did he preach Gospel according to John, or Matthew, or Luke, or Mark, or Barnabbas , or Thomas, or Peter, or Judas.

As I’ve been saying all along on this forum Jesus and all his Apostles taught the same Gospel and preached the same message all throughout the New Testament, the same Gospel that Muhammad had in his possession and the same one we have today.

Originally posted by honeto

The problem arise when we find verses in the Bible that talk about Jesus preaching Gospel.
Matthew 4:23
"And Jesus went about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the kingdom,..."
Can you without sidetracking answer that, so I can bring back to your memory all of what you have forgotten after learning.  

The first problem is that you never read THE Gospel with any understanding. Because if you have you would actually know what the Gospel or the kingdom is and why Jesus and all his followers preached and taught it.

If you read the Gospel with understanding you would know why Jesus had to die on a stake and die a sacrificial death.

Hasan, you quoted Matt 4:23, what is the Gospel and who is King of God’s kingdom?

Originally posted by honeto

people who were given the job to guard it, distorted it, changed it words from place to place, hiding what they did not like and passed along the one that favor their agenda.

First Hasan, even your Quran says that the Gospel would be preserved although the Holy Bible said it thousands of years before the Quran. So, now you present a problem with the Quran since it is you who say it was not preserved.

Secondly, who and when was it changed since the one Muhammad had in his possession was accurate?

Third, show the forum from what was the Gospel changed from in order for your statement to be believable, can you or anyone on this forum do that? What is the Gospel supposed to say other than what we have now, can you do that for us, anybody?

Nope! Because I and many others have asked these same questions over a thousand times and no one, I mean no one comes up with any documentation to support their claim just assumptions.    

Originally posted by Caringheart

It may also surprise Muslims that historically, the first Muslim to trash the Bible was Ibn-Khazem, in 1064 AD.

YOU are Exactly Right! ! ! The sad thing about it, they rather believe this guy Ibn then their own messenger, sad, where is the loyalty.

Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians after the time of Muhammad.

Now, here is the funny thing about this statement, your guy Ibn-Khazem believes it was corrupted after Muhammad received it although many Muslims believe it was falsified before Muhammad received it, but by whom and when since many of the Bibles where already in circulation even in the Middle East, what they recalled each Bible and not one got away or lost?

Here is just ANOTHER BIG FALSE Accusation from Islam gone wrong with no proof to back it up.

But I would love to hear what their answers are.

Kish

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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 07 December 2012 at 11:57am
Hi Honeto,

Quote: The Quran also tells us that for each time (determined by God) there was a prophet and a revelation.
The Quran also confirms that in case of OT and NT, people who were given the job to guard it, distorted it, changed it words from place to place, hiding what they did not like and passed along the one that favor their agenda.
O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary. There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-

Response: --- Yes, in studying the Quran I find that the Jews who first invited Muhammad to Yathrib (Madinah), --- became offended with his message, and then tried to discredit him in various ways.

However, it says that God guarded His Word in safety in Surah 5:
48 "To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed."
--- You see, they had the true word of God on hand, so they didn't have to listen to what the Jews wanted them to believe, but rather, --- expose them.

--- Also, I have looked at the messages that Muhammad gave in the Quran. As in Surah 2:
177 "It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness - to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Apostles; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him (God), for your kin, for orphans, for (others,) the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing."

Surah 2 was written in years 1-2 of the Hijrah, --- and he said about the same some 8 years later in year 9, in his last teaching message in Surah 9:
18 "The mosques of God shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in God and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except God. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance."

--- (These are called “the people of truth” and are comparable to the truths that Christians believe and teach, so should we not believe them?)

I realize there may be important parts of the revelations to Muhammad that I haven’t dwelt on, or understood, --- so could you list some of the new laws and regulations in the Quran, that are not written in the former Scriptures, that we should study?


Placid

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