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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: God’s written instructions for life. Post Reply Post New Topic
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2012 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by Kish


Originally posted by Abu Loren

I'm sorry but which Bible is that? The one that's corrupted or the
original one given to Prophet Musa (pbuh) which noboby knows where it
is?
Simply the same Bible that Muhammad had in his possession. Was the Bible (Holy Scriptures) Muhammad had corrupted? Remember, he TOLD you it was God's revelation (S 5:68) Where you will find Guidance and light (S 3:3, 5:46)Meccans refused to believe in it (S34:31)Those grounded in knowledge believe it (S4:162)Any of this ring a bell? Remember, you were TOLD God's promises are in it. (S9:111)Oh!!!!! I love this one Muslims should believe itAre you saying Muhammad TOLD you to believe in a corrupted Bible he himself had in his possession?Was it Muhammad who said "We are judged by it"? (S 5:47)Was Muhammad being judged by God by using a corrupted Bible and by telling his followers to refer to a corrupted Bible when in doubt, does that really makes since my brotha? (S 10:94)Are you reading the Quran?Will be waiting for your answers . . .


Kish and Caringheart,
its funny that you both live of off flash excitements.
I hope you both try to read the whole verses before getting too much excited.
Of course we believe the OT and Nt books were from God, when have anyone of us argued that?
And of course in God's revelation God sent guidance, so those two points you are trying to make is like the remarks many Christians (pastors) make about Muslims, without knowledge that Muslims don't know Christ!

And as we see that the full verse does not help your point as Br Abu Loren said.

And Kish you seems to be on something, really high because I do not see reasons for your excitement when I read the same verse in context! what's you are on bro?
[4:156] (They are condemned) for disbelieving and uttering about Mary a gross lie.

Crucifying "the Body" of Jesus*
[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him—they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.

Footnote

[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

[4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.

[4:160] Due to their transgressions, we prohibited for the Jews good foods that used to be lawful for them; also for consistently repelling from the path of GOD.

[4:161] And for practicing usury, which was forbidden, and for consuming the people's money illicitly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them painful retribution.

[4:162] As for those among them who are well founded in knowledge, and the believers, they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you. They are observers of the Contact Prayers (Salat), and givers of the obligatory charity (Zakat); they are believers in GOD and the Last Day. We grant these a great recompense.

Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2012 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart

"So if you[prophet] are in doubt about what We have revealed to you, ask those who have been reading the scriptures before you"  surah 10:94Wow, Kish, I am reading the Qur'an but had not come across that yet.  I just looked it up.


Don't get that warm self-satisfying feeling just yet. You have to red the preceding verse to get the context. I'll copy and paste here for you so can read them in full.

Sahih International
And We had certainty settled the Children of Israel in an agreeable settlement and provided them with good things. And they did not differ until [after] knowledge had come to them. Indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ
So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters. 10:93-94

Now does it make sense?


Thank you Abu Loren,

I did read it in context.  In fact I read the entire surah.
I'm sorry you read into my response.  I was only expressing my surprise.  It changes nothing for me one way or the other.

Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 01 October 2012 at 3:07pm
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2012 at 3:02pm
Caringheart,
did you read the last sentence?
"The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters."

Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2012 at 2:49am
I'm sorry to say it looks like the heart of Caringheart is closed and s/he will not see anything except what s/he wants to see.
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2012 at 7:48pm
Abu, if you are unable to see that you have been fooled into believing that Allah's word is corrupt despite what the Quran says then so be it.
The proof is in the verses that you just quoted. Are Allah's revelations corrupted? Are you saying that he failed to keep his promise?

15:9     We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
      Inna nahnu nazzalna alththikrawa-inna lahu lahafithoona

Believe what you may but be careful what you say, the Holy Scriptures is the WORD OF GODlike it or not!

If YOU do not want to accept the 'book' fine but at least accept what Allah told you about it, read S 5:68 again and stop adding your two cents
in what it should say, example . . .


Originally posted by Abu Loren

tell the Jews and Christians to really follow the Torah and the Injil and not the corrupted version that you have. . . Indeed the
Torah and the injil was guidance and light for the people until it was corrupted by human hands. So therefore, it is no longer the
Words of God nor are they still guidance and light.


You stand on very, very dangerous grounds by those unfounded remarks as if Allah is weak and unable to protect his word when he said he would.

We can easily put this to rest, where is this so called 'uncorrupted' version of the Torah and Gospel that Islam speaks of although the early Muslims
did not believe that!

Tell us when this so called corruption took place and by who? Or is it because the Torah and the Gospel is not a book for Muslims and therefore
disagrees with most of it's teachings?

S 4:162 But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was
revealed before thee:

But here again you put your own two cents in by corrupting the Quran by saying . . .

Originally posted by Abu Loren

those grounded in knowledge believe in what was revealed to Muhammed (pbuh) and I acknowledge that there will be Jews and Christians who will
be rewarded, no doubt about that.


But who or what was revealed Before Muhammad? You know the answer, the Holy Scriptures. It was completed 500 years before the Quran was reveled
to Muhammad. But, you rather believe Ibn Khazem because because of his issues and belief. Now where is your "SUBMISSION" ONLY IN NAME?


Originally posted by kish

Oh!!!!! I love this one Muslims should believe it. Are you saying Muhammad TOLD you to believe in a corrupted Bible he himself had
in his possession?


Originally posted by abu loren

Without getting emotional I wish you could have quoted the verse, so I can give you the answer. Again Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) never told me to
believe in any Bible.


Must I show you everything?
3:84     Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in
(the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord . .

S4:136   4:136     O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent
to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

But of course you still do not believe and for that I feel sorry for.

Originally posted by abu loren

If he did then there was no point in a new revelation.


Exactly Now, we are getting somewhere!

Galatians 1:8 However, even if we or an angel (Gabriel) out of heaven were to declare to ​YOU​ as good news (or Revelation) something beyond what we declared to
YOU as good news (or Revelation) let him be accursed.


Islam says the Quran makes no distinction between God's revelation S 2:136 but you do by making these false charges. Until then Islam will never
have peace much like Israel, for murdering Jesus on Nissan 13, 33 C. E.

Kish

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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2012 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Kish

Abu, if you are unable to see that you have been fooled into believing that Allah's word is corrupt despite what the Quran says then so be it. The proof is in the verses that you just quoted. Are Allah's revelations corrupted? Are you saying that he failed to keep his promise?15:9     We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).      Inna nahnu nazzalna alththikrawa-inna lahu lahafithoona Believe what you may but be careful what you say, the Holy Scriptures is the WORD OF GODlike it or not!If YOU do not want to accept the 'book' fine but at least accept what Allah told you about it, read S 5:68 again and stop adding your two cents in what it should say, example . . .
Originally posted by Abu Loren

tell the Jews and Christians to really follow the Torah and the Injil and not the corrupted version that you have. . . Indeed the Torah and the injil was guidance and light for the people until it was corrupted by human hands. So therefore, it is no longer the Words of God nor are they still guidance and light.
You stand on very, very dangerous grounds by those unfounded remarks as if Allah is weak and unable to protect his word when he said he would.We can easily put this to rest, where is this so called 'uncorrupted' version of the Torah and Gospel that Islam speaks of although the early Muslims did not believe that! Tell us when this so called corruption took place and by who? Or is it because the Torah and the Gospel is not a book for Muslims and thereforedisagrees with most of it's teachings?S 4:162 But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee:But here again you put your own two cents in by corrupting the Quran by saying . . .
Originally posted by Abu Loren

those grounded in knowledge believe in what was revealed to Muhammed (pbuh) and I acknowledge that there will be Jews and Christians who will be rewarded, no doubt about that.
But who or what was revealed Before Muhammad? You know the answer, the Holy Scriptures. It was completed 500 years before the Quran was reveled to Muhammad. But, you rather believe Ibn Khazem because because of his issues and belief. Now where is your "SUBMISSION" ONLY IN NAME?
Originally posted by kish

Oh!!!!! I love this one Muslims should believe it. Are you saying Muhammad TOLD you to believe in a corrupted Bible he himself had in his possession?
Originally posted by abu loren

Without getting emotional I wish you could have quoted the verse, so I can give you the answer. Again Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) never told me to believe in any Bible.
Must I show you everything? 3:84     Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord . .S4:136   4:136     O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.But of course you still do not believe and for that I feel sorry for.
Originally posted by abu loren

If he did then there was no point in a new revelation.
Exactly Now, we are getting somewhere!Galatians 1:8 However, even if we or an angel (Gabriel) out of heaven were to declare to ​YOU​ as good news (or Revelation) something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news (or Revelation) let him be accursed.Islam says the Quran makes no distinction between God's revelation S 2:136 but you do by making these false charges. Until then Islam will neverhave peace much like Israel, for murdering Jesus on Nissan 13, 33 C. E. Kish



Mr. Kish it seems you don't read any of my replies, so I will go through again what you have written. I will do it so hopefully you will understand it as a pupil learns from a teacher (no offence intended).

Abu, if you are unable to see that you have been fooled into believing that Allah's word is corrupt despite what the Quran says then so be it.Are you saying that he failed to keep his promise?

I don't understand this part. If you are saying that the Holy Qur'an is stating the scriptures, the Torah and the Injil are incorruptible then you are wrong. The Torah and the Injil ARE CORRUPT because there are man made additions and omissions. What Allah Subhana Wa T'ala has stated is that He will protect the Holy Qur'an the final revelation to mankind. God never said that He will protect the Torah and the Injil. I think this is where you are getting confused.

Believe what you may but be careful what you say, the Holy Scriptures is the WORD OF GODlike it or not!

If you mean the Torah and the Injil then you are wrong. It was the WORD OF GOD when it was revealed, but as it was corrupted by men it longer is the WORD OF GOD.

If YOU do not want to accept the 'book' fine but at least accept what Allah told you about it, read S 5:68 again and stop adding your two cents in what it should say, example . . .

If by the 'book' you mean the Bible then no I will not accept it because my God has told me that is corrupted. I'm not adding my two cents but giving you evidence from the Holy Qur'an. My opinion does not matter here or there. Regarding verse 5:68 again you do not understand it. Let me copy and paste it here and explain to you the meaning.

Sahih International

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

Ok when the Holy Qur'an begins a verse with 'say' it is telling Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) to tell whoever is doubting or enquired about a matter, so in this instance it is saying tell the people of the scripture ie. Jews and Christians that they must uphold the Mosaic Law. Then it says that what has been revealed to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) ie. The Holy Qur'an, the Jews and Christians will not accept nor believe in it.

You stand on very, very dangerous grounds by those unfounded remarks as if Allah is weak and unable to protect his word when he said he would.

The Holy Qur'an has been unchanged since it was revealed the first time and it is still in it's original language so it is not 'lost in translation'.

We can easily put this to rest, where is this so called 'uncorrupted' version of the Torah and Gospel that Islam speaks of although the early Muslims did not believe that!

The 'uncorrupted' version of the Torah does not exist anymore because it has been corrupted by men.

Tell us when this so called corruption took place and by who? Or is it because the Torah and the Gospel is not a book for Muslims and therefore disagrees with most of it's teachings?

This corruption took place over time as scribes and priests who used to copy then began to add their bits into the Holy Words of God, so the original message was mixed with these additions. It's not a question of the Torah and Injil are not books for Muslims rather Muslims believe that the Torah and the Injil were given to Prophet Musa (pbuh) and Prophet Jesus (pbuh) respectively but because of the corruption contained therein we cannot rely on them as the Words of God. With regard to verse 4:62 I have already explained to you that if you read the full verse it is saying that the Jewish scholars who know the Torah is from God also know that the Holy Qur'an is a revelation from God. Those who will follow Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and accept him as a messenger of God will be saved. The last sentence is not talking about Jews or Christians who follow the Torah or the Injil rather the followers of the new revelation.

But who or what was revealed Before Muhammad? You know the answer, the Holy Scriptures. It was completed 500 years before the Quran was reveled to Muhammad. But, you rather believe Ibn Khazem because because of his issues and belief. Now where is your "SUBMISSION" ONLY IN NAME?

The Torah, the Psalms, the Injil etc were revealed to God's holy prophets, nobody is denying this fact. By the way, those scriptures lost it's holiness when men began to add their own script thus making it corrupt. I don't understand by what you mean when you say they were completed 500 years before the Holy Qur'an was revealed. It's still corrupt isn't it?

Must I show you everything?

No, it's me who's showing you everything but you have a hard time grasping the simplicity of what I am telling you.

Verse 3:84 is confirming that those scriptures were indeed revealed to those holy prophets of God. Nobody is denying that fact. What I am saying is that over time they got corrupted.

MY FRIEND I WILL WRITE THE FOLLOWING IN CAPS BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE YOU WILL ONLY UNDERSTAND WHEN I SHOUT AT YOU!

ALL MUSLIMS BELIEVE THAT THE TORAH, PSALMS, INJIL ETC WERE REVEALED TO PROPHETS. BUT THESE ARE NOT IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORM AS THEY ARE NOW C O R R U P T E D!

I don't take any writing of Paul seriously because he was a liar and a fraud.

Islam says the Quran makes no distinction between God's revelation S 2:136 but you do by making these false charges. Until then Islam will never have peace much like Israel, for murdering Jesus on Nissan 13, 33 C. E.

Sahih International

And they did not appraise Allah with true appraisal when they said, " Allah did not reveal to a human being anything." Say, "Who revealed the Scripture that Moses brought as light and guidance to the people? You [Jews] make it into pages, disclosing [some of] it and concealing much. And you were taught that which you knew not - neither you nor your fathers." Say, " Allah [revealed it]." Then leave them in their [empty] discourse, amusing themselves.

Edited by Abu Loren - 05 October 2012 at 1:20pm
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2012 at 1:41pm
Kish writes:
"If YOU do not want to accept the 'book' fine but at least accept what Allah told you about it, read S 5:68 again and stop adding your two cents
in what it should say, example . . ."

Kish,
Allah has told us in the Quran what we have been showing to you. That it were people who changed the word of God sent previously.
Let me give you another example. Remember in the Quran it says to believers that food of the people of the book is good for them to eat. How come that can be so that now most of Christians if not all eat pork, why would Allah say to eat their food while He has made it forbidden for Muslims? The answer might help you to understand what you ask.
The answer might be that it shows that when Allah revealed the Quran, the people of the book were still following the dietary laws that were same as what God commanded them to follow in the OT. So what happened in course of time is that Christians changed that and made pork clean for themselves and thus eating something that was haram. That was a change we all can see very visible without any authority from God. That is a major alteration and change.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 05 October 2012 at 1:44pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 19 October 2012 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by Honeto

ALL MUSLIMS BELIEVE THAT THE TORAH, PSALMS, INJIL ETC WERE REVEALED TO PROPHETS. BUT THESE ARE NOT IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORM AS THEY ARE NOW C O R R U P T E D!


And I am HAPPY to say NO Muslim have been able to show and prove by providing an original form of the Torah and Injil other than what we already have today!

Until any Muslim can provide a so called uncorrupted version of the Torah and the Injil other than what we have you will never have peace.


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