Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Prophets - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Prophets - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses
Message Icon Topic: FLOOD OF NOAH DIDNT COVER WORLD IN KORAN(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 3 Next >>
Author Message
Abdu-Rahman,Kai
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 25 August 2005
Location: Finland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18
bullet Topic: FLOOD OF NOAH DIDNT COVER WORLD IN KORAN
    Posted: 25 August 2005 at 4:23am
A.S.A! I am interested about all science and bible (and history) oriented proofs on behalf of Islam, from all fields, and I think I have found some that maybe non-other has noticed before, so please help translating and spreading them, to increase faith of us all (it surely did it for me, very strong reasons why I accepted Islam, I put many links if some will not open in one hour due to high traffic) :

This all is from my book in:

http://www.geocities.com/sciencekoran/cover1.gif

YOU CAN READ IT ALL AS ONE WHOLE WRITING:

http://www.geocities.com/sciencekoran/index.html

OR THEN AS EACH AREA ON DIFFERENT SECTIONS ON THESE LINKS:

http://www.geocities.com/sciencekoran/Islam.html
http://www.geocities.com/sciencekoran/islam.html
http://www.geocities.com/sciencekoran/muslims.html
http://www.geocities.com/sciencekoran/muslim.html

FLOOD OF NOAH: According to Koran flood of Noah only involved people of (prophet) Noah, whole world is not said to have sunk (as in the Bible). Strongest candidate for "people of Noah" might be developed nation found from bottom of Black Sea, which people did not have time to escape when masses of water from Mediterrean Sea flow into it after straits of Bosbor (in place of modern Istanbul) collapsed thousands of years ago. Another good candidate is "lost Atlantis", that has been with high probability (descriptions of "Atlantis" match) located from southern Spain, as it sunk into sea on the coast:
         &nbs p;          
    3:33 mentions Noah as important messenger among others like in 4:163 and in 6:84. 7:64 (and 21:77+25:37+37:82+53:52) mentions that (only) those who rejected message of Noah (people he was sent to) were drowned, no other except Noah is mentioned to have had "sign" then. Inheritors of Noah in 7:69 (and in 37:77 "offspring") are only part of people on earth, ancestors of people of Israel. 10:73 people from ark who "inherit the earth" (37:79 "salutation to Noah among the nations") really got it as religions of Aabraham (relative of Noah) cover over 50% of worlds population. 11:40 (and in 23:27 "valley overflows"+54:12) "water came forth from the valley" (Shakir translation) could describe how Bosbor-straits broke, also some heavy rain (54:11) and fountains (Yusufali translation) from ground might have gushed forth at same time, "(take) of each kind two, male and female" does not really mention all species of animals or plants in world, it does not mention animals/plants at all, only humans (his family and those who followed Noah), 26:119 mentions only filled ark ("with all creatures" is interpretation of Yusufali), can be it with humans and food and some animals. 11:43 Noahs son mentioned going to mountains, but he never got that far as waves "came between them", no mention of flood covering mountains. 11:44 earth "swallowing" water and sky "withdrawing" can not be very much water in any sense. 11:48 confirmed that "there will be" (= they will be introduced to) other people that were not in Ark. 17:2-3 comfirmed that descedants of Ark are people of Israel, from son of Aabraham.In 29:14 "(Noah) tarried among them a thousand years less fifty" can mean that Noah was with his people for 950 years, or that he was with them last 50 years from millennium, or even that he was with them for time of "thousand years" in ours account, so according to Koran (22:47) one "day" in Allahs sight (as Noah was prophet and belongs with Allah), it can be only reason why this "less fifty" is said and not 950 years mentioned straight, so almost one day (if 50 means years, 95% from day, if "fifty" means 50% then half day) trying to preach them (as according to Koran there is only few descriptions about his sayings, 29:18 "duty of the messenger is only to preach publicly", maybe after that day he began to build ark). In 69:11 interpretiating "you" into mankind is only from Yusufali translation, it could be Noah, or morelikely his offspring and so "you" could be addressed to prophet Muhammed who was also offspring of Aabraham (so "you" in 69:12 is also maybe addressed to prophet Muhammed only). In 71:25 Allah spoke about certain people of Noah mentioned in ayas 1, 7 and in 23 with their gods. Notice, in 11:46 Allah told for His prophet that he is "acting like ingorant" despite counceling of Him, so was prophet Noah sinless? In 71:26 Noah requested that no single one of unbelievers would be left on earth, but Allah gave no answer to that.
 
NEW VERSION, AND LOT MORE NEW (IN LINKS AND MAIN PAGE):

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/index.blog?topic_id=102 1115

"KINGDOM OF GOD", ISLAM:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/islam
IP IP Logged
salman_s
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 24 May 2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1289
bullet Posted: 02 June 2006 at 11:56pm

I have the book Stories of the Prophets by Ibn Kathir

In that book, in the Story of Noah (pbuh), it has been stated that the whole earth was flooded.

IP IP Logged
Nazarene
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 September 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
bullet Posted: 18 September 2008 at 6:11pm
this is how i think it happened.
   13,000 years ago there was a huge ice sheet  2mi thick covered most of the northen hemisphere.  
   at this time the worlds oceans were an estemated 400 - 500 feet lower then now.(it was like that for 100,000 yrs.)
 also at this time the persin gulf was completely dried  up.(this was the valley that overflowed) .
  this ice sheet only took they say 150-200 yrs. to melt. a blink of an eye in time. as the oceans rose the water passed over the strates of hermoze(forgive spelling) thus flooding the valley( the garden of eden)
 
  a researcher has used satilites and found the two lost river beds( of the pishon and the gihon) that flowed from iran on one side of the gulf and the other flowed from arabia on the other side. and they would have met with euphrates and tigris rivers under what is now the gulf.
 
      also we are now finding that all around the world there are masive buildings and piramids that are so deep under water that they could have only been built when the oceans were at the low point mentioned above. ( this would be the race of man that was distroyed)
     thus cities didn't " sink ". the water rose. the russians say thay have found a huge undewater city complex in the atlantic but will not tell where it is.
 
        so how do you relate this happening to later people?? how could they understand what took place??
 
  well a few years ago archeologists found a tablet( dates 6000 bce)  by the old city of ure( spelling). on this tablet it told a story.
 
    a story of a buisness man who owned a bardge and carried goods up and down the river. well all at once a deludge came  flowing down the river flooding all the area. like a great sunami it wash all who along the river away devistating the land.
    well this man and his family gained safty from this on their bardge. surived the deludge got washed into the persan gulf where they drifted for seven days or so they landed on an isiand ( bahrane they think). he returned a hero for the feat but under sumarien law he was lible for the cargo left on shore that was lost.
    unable to pay he was benished for some time till he was able to return.
 
 the name of the man on the tablet was    NOAH.
 
 SO AS ADAMS ( GODS FIRST PROPHET) LIFE RETELLS THE CREATION  THAT HAPPEN BEFORE HIM SO WE CAN UNDERSTAND IT .
 
   SO THE STORY OF NOAH AND HIS EXPREAENCE IS USED TO RELATE THAT RISING OF THE OCEANS AND THE END OF THE EARLER RACE MAN .SO ALSO WE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT TOOK PLACE.
     
  AND ABOUT THE GARDEN OF EDEN .
 
IT'S BEEN WRITEN THAT THE TREE OF LIFE LIES IN THE  " ENDLESS  SEA".  AND  GROWS IN THE  "SEA OF ETERNITY" AND STANDS IN THE  MIDDLE OF THE    "ETERNAL SEA"
 
 


Edited by Nazarene - 20 September 2008 at 9:23pm
love for all conquers all
IP IP Logged
royrev
Male Other
Starter
Starter


Joined: 03 November 2010
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1
bullet Posted: 03 November 2010 at 9:18am
Sometimes I wonder if all the stories in the Bible are true
IP IP Logged
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 582
bullet Posted: 21 December 2012 at 8:15pm
If the flood was a local one, why would God according to the Quran order Noah to take aboard 2 of every species of animals?

Also, according to Ibn Abbas' tafsir of 37:77, humans are all descended from Noah's sons.



bn Abbas

(And made his seed the survivors) until the Day of Judgement. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Yapheth. Shem is the father of the Arabs and those people surrounding them; Ham is the father the Abyssinians, Berbers and inhabitants of Sind; and Yapheth is the father of the rest of people,

Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs -



If I am not mistaken, Ibn Abbas knew both Muhammad and his companions personally. Ibn Jalalayn and Ibn Kathir confirm people are all descended from Noah in their tafsirs.
IP IP Logged
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 582
bullet Posted: 22 December 2012 at 5:23am
Originally posted by Nazarene

this is how i think it happened.
   13,000 years ago there was a huge ice sheet  2mi thick covered most of the northen hemisphere.  
   at this time the worlds oceans were an estemated 400 - 500 feet lower then now.(it was like that for 100,000 yrs.)
 also at this time the persin gulf was completely dried  up.(this was the valley that overflowed) .
  this ice sheet only took they say 150-200 yrs. to melt. a blink of an eye in time. as the oceans rose the water passed over the strates of hermoze(forgive spelling) thus flooding the valley( the garden of eden)
 
  a researcher has used satilites and found the two lost river beds( of the pishon and the gihon) that flowed from iran on one side of the gulf and the other flowed from arabia on the other side. and they would have met with euphrates and tigris rivers under what is now the gulf.
 
      also we are now finding that all around the world there are masive buildings and piramids that are so deep under water that they could have only been built when the oceans were at the low point mentioned above. ( this would be the race of man that was distroyed)
     thus cities didn't " sink ". the water rose. the russians say thay have found a huge undewater city complex in the atlantic but will not tell where it is.
 
        so how do you relate this happening to later people?? how could they understand what took place??
 
  well a few years ago archeologists found a tablet( dates 6000 bce)  by the old city of ure( spelling). on this tablet it told a story.
 
    a story of a buisness man who owned a bardge and carried goods up and down the river. well all at once a deludge came  flowing down the river flooding all the area. like a great sunami it wash all who along the river away devistating the land.
    well this man and his family gained safty from this on their bardge. surived the deludge got washed into the persan gulf where they drifted for seven days or so they landed on an isiand ( bahrane they think). he returned a hero for the feat but under sumarien law he was lible for the cargo left on shore that was lost.
    unable to pay he was benished for some time till he was able to return.
 
 the name of the man on the tablet was    NOAH.
 
 SO AS ADAMS ( GODS FIRST PROPHET) LIFE RETELLS THE CREATION  THAT HAPPEN BEFORE HIM SO WE CAN UNDERSTAND IT .
 
   SO THE STORY OF NOAH AND HIS EXPREAENCE IS USED TO RELATE THAT RISING OF THE OCEANS AND THE END OF THE EARLER RACE MAN .SO ALSO WE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT TOOK PLACE.
     
  AND ABOUT THE GARDEN OF EDEN .
 
IT'S BEEN WRITEN THAT THE TREE OF LIFE LIES IN THE  " ENDLESS  SEA".  AND  GROWS IN THE  "SEA OF ETERNITY" AND STANDS IN THE  MIDDLE OF THE    "ETERNAL SEA"
 
 


Salaam Alaikum, Nazarene. This is really fascinating stuff. Do you have any sources you can provide us for the following claims:


also we are now finding that all around the world there are masive buildings and piramids that are so deep under water that they could have only been built when the oceans were at the low point mentioned above. ( this would be the race of man that was distroyed)

     thus cities didn't " sink ". the water rose. the russians say thay have found a huge undewater city complex in the atlantic but will not tell where it is.



IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1639
bullet Posted: 23 December 2012 at 1:30pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

If the flood was a local one, why would God according to the Quran order Noah to take aboard 2 of every species of animals?

Also, according to Ibn Abbas' tafsir of 37:77, humans are all descended from Noah's sons.



bn Abbas

(And made his seed the survivors) until the Day of Judgement. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Yapheth. Shem is the father of the Arabs and those people surrounding them; Ham is the father the Abyssinians, Berbers and inhabitants of Sind; and Yapheth is the father of the rest of people,

Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs -



If I am not mistaken, Ibn Abbas knew both Muhammad and his companions personally. Ibn Jalalayn and Ibn Kathir confirm people are all descended from Noah in their tafsirs.


The tafsirs do not say that "all" people were descended from the sons of Noah (pbuh), but only the people in a certain geographical locality:

"(And made his seed the survivors) until the Day of Judgement. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Yapheth. Shem is the father of the Arabs and those people surrounding them; Ham is the father the Abyssinians, Berbers and inhabitants of Sind; and Yapheth is the father of the rest of people," (Tafsir of Ibn Abbas)

"and made his descendants the survivors, thus all human beings are descended from him, peace be upon him. He had three sons: Shem (Sām), the ancestor of the Arabs, the Persians and the Byzantines; Ham (Hām), the ancestor of the Negroes; and Japheth (Yāfith), the ancestor of the Turks, the Khazar and [the peoples of] Gog and Magog and [the inhabitants of] such regions." (Tafsir Al-Jalalayn)

"(Sam was the father of the Arabs, Ham was the father of the Ethiopians and Yafith was the father of the Romans.)'' This was also recorded by At-Tirmidhi. What is meant here by Romans is the original Romans, i.e., the Greeks who claimed descent from Ruma (Roma) the son of Liti, the son of Yunan, the son of Yafith, the son of Nuh, peace be upon him." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)


As you can see, none of the tafsirs mentions other civilizations like those inhabiting North and South America, China, Japan etc.  They only refer to the people in some parts of Asia, Africa and Europe.  Therefore, it cannot be concluded based on the tafsirs whether the flood was regional or global.  It could have been either.  It is a matter of faith either way because we are talking about events which occurred thousands of years ago.  I tend to lean towards the flood being regional.  If it was global, then it means that other arks could also have been made because Allah (swt) would have warned all people in the world, not just the people of Noah (pbuh), but his story was told because it is the most well-known.    
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
TG12345
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 582
bullet Posted: 23 December 2012 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

If the flood was a local one, why would God according to the Quran order Noah to take aboard 2 of every species of animals?

Also, according to Ibn Abbas' tafsir of 37:77, humans are all descended from Noah's sons.



bn Abbas

(And made his seed the survivors) until the Day of Judgement. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Yapheth. Shem is the father of the Arabs and those people surrounding them; Ham is the father the Abyssinians, Berbers and inhabitants of Sind; and Yapheth is the father of the rest of people,

Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs -



If I am not mistaken, Ibn Abbas knew both Muhammad and his companions personally. Ibn Jalalayn and Ibn Kathir confirm people are all descended from Noah in their tafsirs.


The tafsirs do not say that "all" people were descended from the sons of Noah (pbuh), but only the people in a certain geographical locality:

"(And made his seed the survivors) until the Day of Judgement. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Yapheth. Shem is the father of the Arabs and those people surrounding them; Ham is the father the Abyssinians, Berbers and inhabitants of Sind; and Yapheth is the father of the rest of people," (Tafsir of Ibn Abbas)

"and made his descendants the survivors, thus all human beings are descended from him, peace be upon him. He had three sons: Shem (Sām), the ancestor of the Arabs, the Persians and the Byzantines; Ham (Hām), the ancestor of the Negroes; and Japheth (Yāfith), the ancestor of the Turks, the Khazar and [the peoples of] Gog and Magog and [the inhabitants of] such regions." (Tafsir Al-Jalalayn)

"(Sam was the father of the Arabs, Ham was the father of the Ethiopians and Yafith was the father of the Romans.)'' This was also recorded by At-Tirmidhi. What is meant here by Romans is the original Romans, i.e., the Greeks who claimed descent from Ruma (Roma) the son of Liti, the son of Yunan, the son of Yafith, the son of Nuh, peace be upon him." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)


As you can see, none of the tafsirs mentions other civilizations like those inhabiting North and South America, China, Japan etc.  They only refer to the people in some parts of Asia, Africa and Europe.  Therefore, it cannot be concluded based on the tafsirs whether the flood was regional or global.  It could have been either.  It is a matter of faith either way because we are talking about events which occurred thousands of years ago.  I tend to lean towards the flood being regional.  If it was global, then it means that other arks could also have been made because Allah (swt) would have warned all people in the world, not just the people of Noah (pbuh), but his story was told because it is the most well-known.    


Sorry, but none of the tafsirs say people in a certain geographic locality were affected by the flood.

 Ibn Jalalayn specifically wrote that all human beings are descended from Noah.

"and made his descendants the survivors, thus all human beings are descended from him, peace be upon him. He had three sons: Shem (Sām), the ancestor of the Arabs, the Persians and the Byzantines; Ham (Hām), the ancestor of the Negroes; and Japheth (Yāfith), the ancestor of the Turks, the Khazar and [the peoples of] Gog and Magog and [the inhabitants of] such regions." (Tafsir Al-Jalalayn)

Unless you want to argue that people outside of certain parts of Europe, Africa and Asia are not human beings, it is made pretty clear that all humans descended from Noah's family.


Ibn Kathir in his tafsir makes it pretty clear the whole earth was flooded. I was going to save these points for our debate, but here we go anyways. Smile


Ibn Kathir in his tafsir made it pretty clear that God destroyed all on the face of the earth who were disbelievers, that there were no 'sons of Adam' (human beings) alive on the earth except those who boarded the boat, and that all people descended from the offspring of Noah.

Tafsir of 71:26

 

(And Nuh said: "My Lord! Leave not one of the disbelievers on the earth Dayyar!'') meaning, do not leave a single one of them on the face of the earth, not even a lone individual. This is a method of speaking that gives emphasis to the negation. Ad-Dahhak said, "Dayyar means one.'' As-Suddi said, "Dayyar is the one who stays in the home.'' So Allah answered his supplication and He destroyed all of those on the face of the earth who were disbelievers. He (Allah) even destroyed Nuh's (biological) son from his own loins, who separated himself from his father (Nuh). He (Nuh's son) said,

 

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1495&Itemid=127


Tafsir of 37:76,77

And indeed Nuh invoked Us, and We are the best of those who answer.)

﴿وَنَجَّيْنَـهُ وَأَهْلَهُ مِنَ الْكَرْبِ الْعَظِيمِ ﴾

(And We rescued him and his family from the great distress.) means, their disbelief and their insults.

﴿وَجَعَلْنَا ذُرِّيَّتَهُ هُمُ الْبَـقِينَ ﴾

(And, his progeny, them We made the survivors.) `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, "There was no one left apart from the offspring of Nuh, peace be upon him.'' Sa`id bin Abi `Arubah said, narrating from Qatadah concerning the Ayah,

﴿وَجَعَلْنَا ذُرِّيَّتَهُ هُمُ الْبَـقِينَ ﴾

(And, his progeny, them We made the survivors.) "All people descended from the offspring of Nuh, peace be upon him.''

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1933&Itemid=93


This is his tafsir of verse 25:40

 

And Nuh's people, when they denied the Messengers,) although Allah sent only Nuh to them, and he stayed among them for 950 years, calling them to Allah and warning them of His punishment,

﴿وَمَآ ءَامَنَ مَعَهُ إِلاَّ قَلِيلٌ﴾

(And none believed with him, except a few) (11:40). For this reason Allah drowned them all and left no one among the sons of Adam alive on earth apart from those who boarded the boat,

﴿وَجَعَلْنَـهُمْ لِلنَّاسِ ءَايَةً﴾

(and We made them a sign for mankind.) meaning a lesson to be learned. This is like the Ayah,

﴿إِنَّا لَمَّا طَغَا الْمَآءُ حَمَلْنَـكُمْ فِى الْجَارِيَةِ - لِنَجْعَلَهَا لَكُمْ تَذْكِرَةً وَتَعِيَهَآ أُذُنٌ وَعِيَةٌ ﴾

(Verily, when the water rose beyond its limits, We carried you in the boat. That We might make it a remembrance for you, and the keen ear may understand it) (69:11-12), which means: `We left for you ships that you ride upon to travel across the depths of the seas, so that you may remember the blessing of Allah towards you when He saved you from drowning, and made you the descendants of those who believed in Allah and followed His commandments.'

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2394&Itemid=80

Ibn Abbas divided the descendants of the sons of Noah into three groups, the Arabs and those sorrounding them, the Abyssinians, Berbers and people of Sind, and "the rest of the people".

"(And made his seed the survivors) until the Day of Judgement. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Yapheth. Shem is the father of the Arabs and those people surrounding them; Ham is the father the Abyssinians, Berbers and inhabitants of Sind; and Yapheth is the father of the rest of people," (Tafsir of Ibn Abbas)


None of the tafsir say that the flood was a regional event or that the descendants of Noah are only people in a certain part of the world, yet Ibn Kathir and Ibn Jalalayn say that all people descended from Noah's family, Ibn Abbas divides the sons of Noah's inhabitants into a few ethnic groups and "the rest of people" and Ibn Kathir makes it explicitly clear that God destroyed everyone on the earth who did not go on the ark.


I don't think it can be any more clear that the flood was global and wiped out everyone except those who went with Noah on the ark.




IP IP Logged
Page  of 3 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com