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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 June 2012 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
three major issues:
God, Jesus, and Salvation.
love,
Hasan


Ok.  I need you to lay out clearly what you think these contradictions are which you refer to.
To say that God, Jesus, and Salvation contradict in the Bible, this means nothing to me.

Edit:  I went back and read the original post of yours that I had responded to and now offer the following:

I realize that other religions struggle with the idea of a 'Trinity'.  To me it is very easy to understand.  God is one, and just as I am one but have two arms, so God is one but has these two extensions of Himself.  Just as it is the whole of the body, the brain, that informs the arm, so it is the Father that informs the Son and Holy Spirit, branches of Himself.  So the Father is greater than the Son, but still one with Him... and the Holy Spirit is the part of Him that lives in us.

God is all powerful, created everything... therefore He can also recreate Himself in human flesh in the form of a Son if He so chooses... still part of Himself.  God is a great mystery capable of things humans will not understand.  God is capable of anything. 

Regarding the Holy Spirit... we are told that God is everywhere, and that God lives in us... this is the Holy Spirit, God living in us if we call upon Him.  It is simple.  God can do anything, and all things.  His wisdom is beyond anything man can understand. 

"For what man knows God's counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?"

God speaking with Job 38-42:
"Who is this that obscures divine plans with words of ignorance?
Gird up your loins now like a man; for I will question you, and you tell me the answers.
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.

Will we have arguing with the Almighty by the critic?
    Let him who would correct God give answer!
Then Job answered the Lord:
“Behold, I am of little account; what can I answer you?
    I put my hand over my mouth."

Then Job answered the Lord and said:
 “I know that you can do all things,
    and that no purpose of yours can be hindered.
 I have dealt with great things that I do not understand;
    things too wonderful for me, which I can not know.
 I had heard of you by word of mouth,
    but now my eye has seen you.
 Therefore I disown what I have said,
    and repent in dust and ashes.”


Aren't we all given a part of God at creation, a knowing of Him, when He breathes life into us?  Isn't it innately within us to know that there is God?  These things are easy for me to understand because I know God and I feel Him within me.  He speaks to me when I listen.  He speaks to all of us if we only listen.  This is the Holy Spirit of God living within us, when we invite Him in. 

These things are easy for me to understand.

"Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he can not understand it, because it is spiritually discerned."

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved it is the power of God.  For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
    the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." (Isaiah)

 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
 For after that, in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"

Regarding salvation;
Salvation comes through the blood of Jesus only if we accept Jesus and are transformed in our lives through the acceptance of Him.  If we are not transformed then we do not truly have Christ.  It is devotion of love, through knowing the great sacrifice of our Lord, that brings us to obedience and salvation.  This is why the rich may be denied.  If they have not been transformed, then Jesus will not know him when he comes face to face.

Does this better address the confusion that you see as contradictions?

Sincerely,
Caringheart
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Larry
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2012 at 12:55am
iec786,

   I am really starting to question your mental state. I have no idea of what Ezekiel 23:5-20 has to do with a discussion about the "Holy Gospel." The Book of the Prophet Ezekiel is part of the Old Testament.

   I still have NO IDEA of what you are trying to say or ask, what relevance does this quote about "whores" have to do with me, or with anything?

   As far as the Old Testament, the story of the Two Harlot Sisters is followed by God's judgment against them. The answer to your references to the "Sisters" is provided by Ezekiel's prophecy in Chapter 23:4 and 23:22-35

   The "harlots" (or "whores" of your translation) are not two people, as is explained in Verse 4. The "Lord God" is speaking these statements according to the prophecy of Ezekiel.

   4. "Their names: O-ho-la the elder and O-hol-i-bah her sister; They were Mine, And they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Samaria is O-ho-lah, And Jerusalem is O-hol-i-bah."

   So, your quote about the "whores" was a prophecy that the Lord God gave to the Prophet Ezekiel concerning the sins of Samaria and Jerusalem in following idols and committing these sins and lewdnesses with other nations and peoples in the region.

   22. "Therefore, O-hol-i-bah, thus says the Lord God:"

   "Behold, I will stir up your lovers against you, From whom you have alienated yourself, and I will bring them against you from every side:"

   23. "The Babylonians, All the Chal-de-ans, Pe'kod, Sho'a, Ko'a, All the Assyrians with them, All of them desirable men, Governors and rulers, Captains and men of renown, All of them riding horses."

   24. "And they shall come against you, With chariots, wagons, and war-horses, With a horde of people. They shall array against you Buckler, shield, and helmet all around. I will delegate judgment to them, And they shall judge you according to their judgments."

   25. "I will set My jealousy against you, And they shall deal furiously with you; They shall remove your nose and your ears, And your remnant will fall by the sword; They shall take your sons and your daughters, And your remnant shall be devoured by fire."

   26. "They shall also strip you of your clothes And take away your beautiful jewelry."

   27. Thus I will make you cease your lewdness and your harlotry, Brought from the land of Egypt, So that you will not lift your eyes to them, Nor remember Egypt anymore."

   28. "For thus says the Lord God: Surely I will deliver you into the hand of those you hate, into the hand of those from whom you alienated yourself."

   29. "They will deal hatefully with you, take away all you have worked for, and leave you naked and bare. The nakedness of your harlotry shall be uncovered, both your lewdness and your harlotry."

   30. "I will do these things to you because you have gone as a harlot after the Gentiles, because you have become defiled by their idols."

   31. "You have walked in the way of your sister; therefore I will put her cup in your hand."

   32. "Thus says the Lord God:"

   "You shall drink of your sister's cup, The deep and wide one; You shall be laughed to scorn And held in derision; It contains much."

   33. "You will be filled with drunkeness and sorrow, The cup of horror and desolation, The cup of your sister Samaria."

   34. "You shall drink and drain it, You shall break its shards, And tear at your own breasts; For I have spoken, Says the Lord God."

   35. "Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have forgotten Me and cast Me behind your back, Therefore you shall bear the penalty Of your lewdness and your harlotry."

   So, I hope that answers and explains your "quotes" from the Book of the Prophet Ezekiel. As I said before, these are prophecies made by the Lord God of Israel against Samaria and Jerusalem for following after idols and lewd practices from Egypt.

   If you had some other reason for your "quotes" I would appreciate it if you would explain WHY you made these "quotes" in the first place, and what did you mean by doing so?

Larry

P.S. "Jerusalem" is mentioned 667 times in the Bible, it is never mentioned even once in the Quran, which is strange because Jerusalem is supposed to be the "third holiest city" in Islam. It has been the "holiest city" of the Jews for over 3,000 years.

Edited by Larry - 11 June 2012 at 1:25am
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2012 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
three major issues:
God, Jesus, and Salvation.
love,
Hasan


Ok.  I need you to lay out clearly what you think these contradictions are which you refer to.
To say that God, Jesus, and Salvation contradict in the Bible, this means nothing to me.

Edit:  I went back and read the original post of yours that I had responded to and now offer the following:

I realize that other religions struggle with the idea of a 'Trinity'.  To me it is very easy to understand.  God is one, and just as I am one but have two arms, so God is one but has these two extensions of Himself.  Just as it is the whole of the body, the brain, that informs the arm, so it is the Father that informs the Son and Holy Spirit, branches of Himself.  So the Father is greater than the Son, but still one with Him... and the Holy Spirit is the part of Him that lives in us.

God is all powerful, created everything... therefore He can also recreate Himself in human flesh in the form of a Son if He so chooses... still part of Himself.  God is a great mystery capable of things humans will not understand.  God is capable of anything. 

Regarding the Holy Spirit... we are told that God is everywhere, and that God lives in us... this is the Holy Spirit, God living in us if we call upon Him.  It is simple.  God can do anything, and all things.  His wisdom is beyond anything man can understand. 

"For what man knows God's counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?"

God speaking with Job 38-42:
"Who is this that obscures divine plans with words of ignorance?
Gird up your loins now like a man; for I will question you, and you tell me the answers.
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.

Will we have arguing with the Almighty by the critic?
    Let him who would correct God give answer!
Then Job answered the Lord:
“Behold, I am of little account; what can I answer you?
    I put my hand over my mouth."

Then Job answered the Lord and said:
 “I know that you can do all things,
    and that no purpose of yours can be hindered.
 I have dealt with great things that I do not understand;
    things too wonderful for me, which I can not know.
 I had heard of you by word of mouth,
    but now my eye has seen you.
 Therefore I disown what I have said,
    and repent in dust and ashes.”


Aren't we all given a part of God at creation, a knowing of Him, when He breathes life into us?  Isn't it innately within us to know that there is God?  These things are easy for me to understand because I know God and I feel Him within me.  He speaks to me when I listen.  He speaks to all of us if we only listen.  This is the Holy Spirit of God living within us, when we invite Him in. 

These things are easy for me to understand.

"Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he can not understand it, because it is spiritually discerned."

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved it is the power of God.  For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
    the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." (Isaiah)

 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
 For after that, in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"

Regarding salvation;
Salvation comes through the blood of Jesus only if we accept Jesus and are transformed in our lives through the acceptance of Him.  If we are not transformed then we do not truly have Christ.  It is devotion of love, through knowing the great sacrifice of our Lord, that brings us to obedience and salvation.  This is why the rich may be denied.  If they have not been transformed, then Jesus will not know him when he comes face to face.

Does this better address the confusion that you see as contradictions?

Sincerely,
Caringheart
 
Caringheart,
Trinity, never existed before and that is my point. It contradicts the idea of One God presented in the OT. And that is my point. If Trinity was true, it would have been mentioned from the begining. Moses, David, and all of God's porphets would have testified to it. It was a new idea, for that it does not go with the original, with the truth of God as One of One.
 
I believe God is All Capable, but that does not mean He can turn himself into a human like you beleive or an elephant or a monkey as Hindus believe. That is product of human mind and why your idea has more merit than a Hindu's?
 
No, God does not live in each one of us, did God live in Hitler? or Bush? you think? May be goodness and badness live in people depending what they choose. God guides us to goodness, and Satan guide us to badness, that is the proper belief. It is up to to us what we decide for us, each with a consequence. Holy Spirit according to the Bible under God's command and control and God send it to whom He pleases. In the Quran we learn that actually "holy Spirit" is under God's command and rightly so, as everyone and everything is under God's command. Holy Spirit, we learn is an Angel, who God sends down when He decides.  So my dear, what God controls and sends down according to His will is not God as you say rather subject to God and what is subject to God is not God.
You need to make sense of things before repeating and passing them on my friend. Remember you will give account of them one day.
 
Salvation, the Bible contradict on how it is achieved, that was my point. I do not believe, God be to not able to forgive without the act of killing and shedding the blood. That is against the basic principles of love and Justice. And since God is One without parents or ofsprings, loving and Just, God does not have mother, father, son or a daughter, God will not kill himself or His son or someone innocent for someone else's sins as you believe.
Dear friend, if you write me a short quote from your Bible that support:
1-God in a Trinity
2-Jesus being God
3-Salvation through Blood sacrifice of Jesus
 
I will point out the Bible quotes that will negate your quotes, and that's what I mean. The Bible contradicts on all those three major issues.
Hasan
 


Edited by honeto - 11 June 2012 at 1:29pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2012 at 10:34pm
Hasan,

   You made the comment, "I believe God is All Capable, but that does not mean He can turn Himself into a human like you believe..."

   So, that clearly says that you believe that God is not "All Capable" in all things. We Christians believe what Matthew reports in Matthew 19:25-26.

   25. "When His (Jesus) disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"

   26. "But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

   You also say that the "Holy Spirit, we learn is an Angel, who God sends down when he decides."

   The "Holy Spirit" is never referred to as an angel in the Bible. Angels all have names and roles, but the Holy Spirit comes from within God Himself, because He is the Holy Spirit. See Matthew 28:19 below.

   You also said that you don't believe God lives inside of every human being. Just because God lives in us all doesn't mean that people will always do good, evil people do not follow after God, but follow after Satan. God gave us free will to do good or to do evil, it is how we make those choices that we will all be held accountable for at the End of the World.

   But we Christians believe that God lives in us all and is always with us, in good times and bad.

   Jesus says this in Matthew 28:18-20

   18. "Then Jesus came and spoke with them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

   19. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

   20. "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

   You seem to believe that God is restricted to being only one thing at a time, like a human being, but God is beyond all human understanding and His powers are limitless and complete. As long as you believe that God can only be one thing at a time, like a human being, one of His creations, you will never understand the true nature of the Holy Trinity.

   But let's face it, you will never believe in the Holy Trinity and us Christians will never believe in Allah or in his "Prophet." No one is going to change their mind here, the best we can do is to try and understand the beliefs of others and try to get along, but our belief in each of our religions is complete and dearly held by each of us.

Larry



    

Edited by Larry - 11 June 2012 at 11:00pm
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2012 at 11:17pm
[QUOTE=Larry] iec786,

   I am really starting to question your mental state. I have no idea of what Ezekiel 23:5-20 has to do with a discussion about the "Holy Gospel." The Book of the Prophet Ezekiel is part of the Old Testament.

   I still have NO IDEA of what you are trying to say or ask, what relevance does this quote about "whores" have to do with me, or with anything?





Red I maybe mental but not st**id.The question was so simple.Would you read this passage to your wife,children or your grand children would you.


19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 12 June 2012 at 8:16pm
Caringheart,
1-God in a Trinity
2-Jesus being God
3-Salvation through Blood sacrifice of Jesus

Hasan


Ah, hello again, Hasan,
Herein is the source of confusion for so many...
When the old testament was written... when God first appeared to Man... His Son did not exist.
God created Himself in the form of a human Son in order to make a new attempt and approach to saving mankind.
"See I am doing a new thing"
The message of fear of God had not worked so God sends a new message... the message of Love, through His Son.
It was a new thing that God was doing.

Why can God not put His Spirit into any creature He so chooses to do?  Why is this not plausible to you?  God can do anything He chooses to do.  Do not demons possess humans and other creatures?  Jesus cast demons out of two demon-possessed men and into a herd of swine which then threw themselves off a cliff.

God did not live in Hitler no, because Hitler belonged to the evil one.
We belong to one or the other.
He says, I know my sheep and they are mine.  God knows those who belong to Him.
"May be goodness and badness live in people depending what they choose.  God guides us to goodness, and Satan guide us to badness,  It is up to to us what we decide for us, each with a consequence."   Yes!

"what is subject to God is not God."
My arm is subject to what I tell it to do, yet my arm is still me and not something other than me.


I do know that I will give account one day.
David though he committed many sins was 'a man after God's own heart' and acceptable to God... David had a heart for God.  I have a heart for God and seek always to be informed by the Holy Spirit and do not speak otherwise.


The things you say about salvation... I struggle with these things too.  I have difficulty reconciling from the beginning... the old testament... the need for sacrifice and letting of blood, yet it is written that that is what God has required from the beginning.  Abraham was going to sacrifice his own son at the command of God.  I can not say that I understand this, and often the sacrifice of Jesus I have questioned because it seems more a thing that the devil would do to his son than a thing that a loving God would do.
There have been times when I have questioned following God because of the sacrifices which we have believed that He requires... the sacrifices that have been going on since the beginning.  I ask myself, is this truly what the Creator requires, what He wants?  Why?  Why would He?  Why does God require the letting of blood, I ask.
but 'do I have the mind of God' to say what He requires is right or wrong?  Do I tell the Creator how it is to be?  Do I know the answers to all things?  Do I have wisdom to understand, greater than the One who created it all?
I do not.  I await the day when I will understand.
What I do know is that there is One greater than myself... that there is One who created all this for His own purposes and who I am subject to.  At the snap of His fingers He could erase me... He could erase it all if He chose.  I know that I am His servant, at His mercy, and at His will.

It is these questions that have led me to deeper study of God and His Word, and into deeper communion.

but I do not understand why you say that "Salvation, the Bible contradict on how it is achieved"
I do not find any contradiction to how salvation is achieved.  I believe I addressed that in my last post.

Jesus being God - This is supported in the fact that Jesus knew beforehand what He would fulfill on this earth.

Wishing you a blessed day,
Caringheart

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 12 June 2012 at 8:35pm
to Hasan,
I was led to add this one thing more.
In my previous post I wrote
"Salvation comes through the blood of Jesus ...  It is devotion of love, through knowing the great sacrifice of our Lord, that brings us to obedience and salvation."

This is true for the Christian.  Perhaps for the Christian salvation comes through Jesus because we needed to see this great sacrifice of God in order to come to Him... in order to be transformed in our lives and in our thinking.

I have thought that God comes to each group of people as He needs to come to them.  I have considered that God knew that, for the wayward Jews and the gentiles, Jesus(the great sacrifice) was necessary to bring them into belief and obedience.  It was Roman times and look at how the Romans lived.... look at what got the attention of the people.

I have considered that perhaps the Arab people had a different need... the life and story of Jesus was not something they could accept... not something they witnessed... perhaps they only needed to know the Word of God from a man from whom they could receive the message... so perhaps they do not need Jesus in order to be led into obedience and salvation.
Only God himself knows all Truth.
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Quote Larry Replybullet Posted: 12 June 2012 at 11:46pm
iec786,

   You may not be st**id but it is obvious that you cannot read or understand what is happening in the story of the "Two Harlot Sisters."
   If you want to continue this obsession of yours with "whores" and "genitals" you will need to do it with someone else, I am tired of your endless, pointless babbling about them.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 12 June 2012 at 11:58pm
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