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Message Icon Topic: The Holy Gospel did not evolve! Post Reply Post New Topic
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2011 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by semar

(My middle schooler daugter just got a flyer the other day from somebody that distributed it at school, I didn't understand how it's posible, it's a public school. Anyway, on the flyer, as usual  "Jesus Son of God the savior, featured on the first pages).
 
I agree, it shouldn't happen.  Why not tell these folks about it?
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2011 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Of the four gospel writers, only John and Luke spent any time with Mary, the mother of Jesus.  John cared for her, but he did not get the information that Luke did.  Luke was a medical doctor, John was not.  Luke followed St. Paul around for quite a few years.  As he traveled with Paul from place to place, he found quite a few communities that were missing knowledge of Jesus which other communities had.  So he began collecting stories.  He finished his research by spending 3 years with John and Mary in Ephesius.  There, he collected the stories of Jesus Birth, the visit by Mary to Elizabeth, the story of the birth of John the Baptist, and of the muting of Zachariah.  He also got quite a bit on the crucifixion of Jesus from Mary who was there with Jesus throughout the whole event.  So why does Luke contain in his nerative things the other Gospels don't?  Just do your research and you will answer your own question.  Each gospel writer focused on the things he felt were the most important based on what he felt his audience most needed.  Each one wrote for a different audience.  Go figure.
 
So you're saying that Mark and John didn't think the virgin birth of Jesus was important? Confused
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Jack Catholic
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2011 at 7:00am

Dear Ron Webb,

 
About Mary's Virgin Birth, I'm saying that Mark and John were writing to communities that already knew about it.  It was so well known in their communities that there was probably not any thought at all in their mind that maybe they should include it.  Mathew was the first mention of it and his account is brief, written also to a community that knew of the virgin birth.  Luke, on the other hand, had circulated amongst many non-Jewish Christian communities with St. Paul which really didn't know Mary, had never met her accept through the mention that she had had such a birth, and St. Luke, being a doctor, felt it necessary to go and interview her directly and report her story in depth from a doctor's point of view.  His account was enough, and any question on Mary's virgin birth did not arise again until the Protestant reformation 1500 years later.  Remember that the Gospels are about Jesus, not Mary, and the emphasis has been placed on Him more than on Mary. Contrary to Muhammad's missunderstanding recorded in the Qur'an, Mary is not one of the three members of the Blessed Trinity, so the Gospels do not really dwell on her beyond "mention". 
 
Again, you must consider the circumstances behind each of the Gospels that were written as well as the communities they were written to.
 
About the invitation going home from school, I am a teacher.  We reagularly block handing out of invitations in the classroom.  But when a child wants to invite his friends to go somewhere like a birthday party, a concert, or a church event and hands out some invitations to his friends at recess or outside the campus gates where children get picked up, there is absolutely no way that the teachers or school administration can stop that, and why should we?  Religion is not an evil thing, nor is it something to be ashamed of.  Do we teach our children to hide their faith from the community at large?  That is not what this nation is about.  If you are Muslim and want to invite people to an Islamic event, send invitations with your child to school and tell him to hand them out to his friends at recess or outside the gate and I'm sure the school will not complain.  As long as your child is not promoting religiouse beliefs on the campus during school hours, their is nothing wrong with invitations to anything.
 
God Bless,
 
Jack Catholic


Edited by Jack Catholic - 21 April 2011 at 7:12am
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2011 at 9:23am
Originally posted by Jack Catholic

About Mary's Virgin Birth, I'm saying that Mark and John were writing to communities that already knew about it.  It was so well known in their communities that there was probably not any thought at all in their mind that maybe they should include it.
 
C'mon Jack, this is simply not credible.  If you're going to tell a story, you don't leave out the most important parts even if they are well-known.  In fact, especially if they are well-known -- just try telling a bedtime story to your kids and leaving out their favourite bits, and see what reaction you get.
 
Moreover, are you suggesting that the virgin birth was better-known than the crucifixion?  Surely Christ's very public death on the cross would have been widely reported and discussed by friends and foes alike; and yet all of the Gospels include it.  Mary's impregnation, on the other hand, was a completely private affair no matter who you think the father was.  It is the ultimate tall tale with no evidence to back it up.  You seriously imagine that it would have been such common knowledge at the time, and so universally believed, that there was no need even to mention it, let alone testify to its truth?
 
The bottom line is that you can't use a lack of evidence for your claim as evidence in support of it.  If Mark didn't mention the virgin birth, that doesn't suggest that it was common knowledge.  It suggests that it wasn't part of the story when he told it, and therefore that it was added later.
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Quote semar Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2011 at 1:19am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by semar

(My middle schooler daughter just got a flyer the other day from somebody that distributed it at school, I didn't understand how it's posible, it's a public school. Anyway, on the flyer, as usual  "Jesus Son of God the savior, featured on the first pages).
 
I agree, it shouldn't happen.  Why not tell these folks about it?
Thanks Ron, I've double checked to my daughters, they said that the distributor gave the fliers to my douthers in the front yard of the school, while they wait for me to be picked. I'm not sure this is consider legal or not, they were still in school property/land.
Salam/Peace,
Semar
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Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2011 at 4:12am

Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Dear truthcomenow,

You quoted, " "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

 

Then you asked me if I am obeying the law. What has this got to do with whether the bible has evolved, may I ask?

Based on the verses you provided, it seems that the New Testament agrees with the Torah as to what is right and what is wrong, no? I don't see any evidence of evolving here.

God Bless,

Jack Catholic

 

          Br. Jack, I was not responding to weather the bible evolved or not. I was responding to your claimed that Muslims are killing Christians because they call Jesus (S) Allah. That is blasphemy! And the Law stated, if you worship other Gods than the God of Israel you must be put to death. Muslims are simply obeying the law of your bible (not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished.) and you are not. They understood the concept of God the way the Jews understood it; trinity is blasphemy!  

Originally posted by Jack Catholic

About the name of, "Allah," for Yahweh (Jehovah), I am all for calling God, "Allah." The problem here on Islamicity.com is that though Christians have been calling God, "Allah" for 2000+ years (longer than Islam has existed), yet Muslims have told me they are offended when I referr to God in a Christian way while calling Him, "Allah," they are highly offended. What's more, in Muslim countries, Muslims are putting Christians to death in the streets for using this name in reference to the Christian God. Then Christians are being accused of provoking these murders. Many of these countries have made it national law forbidding Christians from calling God, "Allah," saying that because we recognize God as a trinity, calling God, "Allah," is blasphemy against the understanding the Muslims have of God. I did not make this controversy, nor do I kill people over the issue. But Muslims are killing Christians regularly over it. What can I say? I'd like to see Muslims police themselves on this issue, bringing other Muslims to justice for these murders. But the Holy Qur'an does not recommend the death penalty for murder should a Muslim kill a Christian, thought it does recommend the death penalty for a Christian who kills a Muslim. Go figure that one.

 

Jack Catholic

You do not follow the law, you worship created things [Jesus (S)]: Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approve of God among you by miracles and wonders and sign, which God did by him in the midst of you, as you your self also know (Acts 2:22)

 

  "20.   For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 
21.  For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22. 
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 
23.  and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man
and birds and animals and reptiles.
24.  Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25. 
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26.  Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28.  Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29.  They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30.  slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 
31.  they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32
Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them." Romans 1:20-32

Jesus (S) teaches to obey the law and commandment:

  "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.'  (Matthew 23:1-3)"

  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: V.30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. Mark 12:29-30

 

I hope you this will clarify my response, Inshallah!

 

TNC

LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2011 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by semar

Thanks Ron, I've double checked to my daughters, they said that the distributor gave the fliers to my douthers in the front yard of the school, while they wait for me to be picked. I'm not sure this is consider legal or not, they were still in school property/land.
 
No, it is almost certainly not legal, although if the school was not involved and was not aware that it was happening, then it may be difficult to figure out who is responsible.  At a minimum, however, the school has a resonsibility to be aware of what is going on on its property, and to make a reasonable effort to prevent activities that violate the First Amendment.
 
This is exactly the kind of thing that the Freedom From Religion Foundation exists to investigate.  I'm sure they would be happy to give you a legal opinion, and possibly take action on your behalf if warranted.  (And just to be clear, FFRF is not opposed to private belief in religion.  Their only purpose is to keep religion out of our governments and schools, so that people like you and your daughters will not be subjected to religious propaganda that conflicts with your own faith.)
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2011 at 11:19pm
Dear Ron,
 
I wrote, "Each gospel writer focused on the things he felt were the most important based on what he felt his audience most needed.  Each one wrote for a different audience.  Go figure."
 
You responded with a question:  "So you're saying that Mark and John didn't think the virgin birth of Jesus was important?"
 
So if an audience already knows about an event and the writer so decides not to write about it, does this mean that the writer thinks the event is unimportant?  How do you draw this conclusion?
God Bless you,
 
Jack Catholic
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