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Message Icon Topic: The Holy Gospel did not evolve! Post Reply Post New Topic
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2011 at 11:48am
Originally posted by Larry

islamispeace,

   To quote you: "As I have said multiple times already, we will not discuss this topic on this thread which is titled "The Holy Gospel did not evolve!"..."I know what you are trying to do. You want to hijack this thread and divert attention away to an unrelated topic so as to avoid the overwhelming evidence of the Gospels' evolution. Other Christians have tried this tactic before. I have taken the liberty of opening the new topic so that we can discuss it there. So, why don't you stop being a child and let us start the discussion?" Continued stubbornness only makes you look more foolish and cowardly."

   You go off on me about talking about a new subject on this thread and then blatantly do the exact thing that you are accusing me of. I posted a message on this topic page to let you know about the new topic that I had started a new thread on, how else was I to tell you about the new topic I started? Your excuses and accusations about what "other Christians" have done in the past show that you continue your attacks and insinuations about Christians (and their vast conspiricies against you) posing as reasoned and intellectual debate.

   Your patronizing and superior attitude becomes more tedious and repetitious as you continue your rants and conspiracy theories. I have no intentions of further continuing discussion of anything with you and thereby give you an opportunity to showcase your ill-concealed bigotry and religious intolerance of others who do not share your silly and childish views.

   Good luck on "your" new topic showcasing your vast intellect. I'm sure you can find someone who is dumb enough to be drawn into your absurd, narcissistic, self-congratulatory and "acute" universe. LOL! All I know for sure is that I am not that person.

Larry


LOL And yet another attempted conversation with Larry ends in a whiny rant and refusal to discuss further.  What is that now, the fourth time?  I have lost count!

It has become obvious by now that you are an insecure, silly person.  You are like a stubborn five-year old who is prone to hissy fits.  Oh well.  The new topic is still there.  Perhaps someone who is a little more secure about themselves will be willing to discuss it.  Of course, I have discussed that topic before with others, so it was not anything new. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2011 at 12:18pm
Now since Larry has deprived me of his company (LOL), I am free to present some more evidence of the evolution of the Gospels.  This concerns the story of the Gentile woman who approached Jesus (pbuh) and pleaded with him to exorcise the demon which had possessed her daughter.  The story is related by Mark and Matthew, but not Luke or John:

Mark -
"24 Jesus left that place and went to the vicinity of Tyre.[g] He entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet he could not keep his presence secret. 25 In fact, as soon as she heard about him, a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an impure spirit came and fell at his feet. 26 The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.

27 “First let the children eat all they want,” he told her, “for it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

 28 “Lord,” she replied, “even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs.”

 29 Then he told her, “For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter.”

 30 She went home and found her child lying on the bed, and the demon gone."  (Mark 7:24-30)

Matthew -
"21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

 25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

 27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

 28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment." (Matthew 15:21-28)

We know from Jewish sources from the time period that the terms "dogs" and "swine" were commonly used to refer to the Gentiles.  However, Geza Vermes points out that the term was also used for wayward Jews as well:

"Exceptionally they [dogs] are associated with bad Jews whose countenance in the eschatological age is expected to resemble 'the face of a dog' (mSotah 9:15)."  ("The Authentic Gospel of Jesus, p. 109)


The apparent racist tone of these passages from the Gospels of Mark and Mattew aside (as the issue is whether the Gospels have evolved), how is evidence of evolution?  First, the differences between the Gospels of Mark and Matthew need to be considered.  As Vermes points out:

"Against his usual trend, Matthew makes Jesus appear even more severe than in Mark's account.  He first ignores the woman and when his disciples suggest that he should rid them of this nuisance, he take no action: this Gentile person is not his problem.  The idea of a universal saving mission to every nation is not part of this picture.  Jesus' intervention...was strictly an exception justified by the out-of-the-ordinary faith of the mother." (p. 278)

The presence of the passage in both Gospels suggests that Jesus' mission was to the Jews only.  However, there is a difference between the two accounts as to how Jesus deals with the woman, with Matthew showing Jesus being more stubborn.  Matthew's Gospel, as claimed by Church tradition, was primarily written for a Jewish audience.  This could perhaps explain why Matthew tries very hard to make Jesus into a prophet whose main concern is with the Jews. 

But why is the passage not present in the Gospel of Luke?  It is accepted by Church tradition that the author of the gospel was a Gentile physician (Luke).  He was not a Jew.  As David Malick of bible.org puts it:

"The tone of Luke and Acts is similar: worldwide outlook, interest in Gentiles, interest in woman, apologetic tendency [...]

Many subjects in Acts would have been prominent before A.D. 70: Gentile admission to church fellowship, coexistence of Jews and Gentiles in the church, food requirements of the apostolic decree [...]

Luke has a universal emphasis for the Gospel: 1. Samaritans 2. Gentiles 3. Sinners 4. Poor 5. Outcasts 6. Women 7. Children [...]

Therefore, Luke writes Luke-Acts to argue that the Christian Gospel is not anti-semitic, but is rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures' promise of salvation to both the Jews and the Gentiles. "The Way" shares in the initiation of the spiritual promises to Israel. They are the stewards of the promises to Israel. The reason it is primarily Gentile in nature is because the Jews rejected the message of Jesus as Messiah, and pushed the church out. Nevertheless, the Jews as a people are not rejected by God or his servant Paul. The promises will yet be consummated for the nation through the resurrected Jesus--the hope of Israel." ("An Introduction to the Gospel of Luke")


When we consider that Luke wrote his gospel primarily for a Gentile audience and wanted to include Gentiles in the plan of salvation, it is not at all surprising that he would omit the story of the Canaanite woman seeking Jesus' help.  There are two reasons for this:

1.  To keep the story would contradict Luke's primary message, that salvation through Jesus is open to Jew and Gentile alike, and

2.  To keep the story would probably hurt the acceptance of the gospel among the Gentiles.  Let's face it.  Jesus' reference to Gentiles as being like "house dogs" would not fare well among Gentiles the Church wanted to convert.  Being a Gentile himself, Luke probably did not like the story as well. 

Hence, the story was omitted and the gospels evolved from being concerned with salvation for the Jews to salvation for all mankind. 


Edited by islamispeace - 31 August 2011 at 12:28pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2011 at 8:42pm

Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Perhaps you are right in that we do agree, mostly.  However the point that some are trying to make here is that the Holy Bible evolved due to human tampering.  In their mind, evolution of scripture means that the books of the Holy Bible were written by the author first, then altered by others as time passed, either changed or added to, such that the eventual books, as we have them today no longer resemble the simple coherent books that the authors orriginally intended.

The first Gospel author whose work has survived was Mark.  He made no mention of the virgin birth.  We already agreed that this was not a mere oversight (how could he forget a major miracle?).  It was omitted because, as confirmed in Luke 3:23 and Matthew 13:55, it was not part of the story at that time.

Later, Matthew wrote his own Gospel, based in part on Mark's story, but he added the story of the virgin birth.  We agree on this, right?  We can disagree over where Matthew got this extra information, but there is no doubt that the story grew in the telling.

Do we also agree that the phrase "the Son of God" was added to Mark 1:1 by a copyist at some point?  The earliest authentic versions of Mark do not include it.  I guess you can make what you want of that, but it seems clear evidence to me of an attempt to make Mark's account more compatible with the divine parentage of Jesus.
 
If this is the kind of evolution you are arguing for, then you are wrong, no doubt about it.  But if you are simple saying that the truth about Jesus' birth was only partially known during his lifetime on earth, with the remainder of the truth being revealed by Mary only later, that is after his death, and recorded thusly, then yes, you are right.  But in no way was the story of Jesus' birth invented by later Christians and slipped into Gospel books already written.  There is simply no evidence to proove this other than immagination.

On the other hand, you have no evidence to support your theory that this miracle was revealed by Mary after his death. 

But let's go with it.  Let's suppose that throughout Jesus's entire life, everyone assumed that Joseph was the father, and Mary never said a word to the contrary.  And then some time after Jesus' death, she opens up with something like, "Oh, by the way: Joseph wasn't the father.  In fact, we never even had sex.  Ever.  You see, there was this miracle that happened a long time ago, that I don't think I ever told anyone about.  Sorry about that.  It might have helped to explain things, I guess.  But we just felt that it would be easier for the Son of God to have a normal childhood, without all this weirdness about His conception.  Better to just let Him believe He was born out of wedlock.  And then, later on, it just never seemed like the right time to bring it up.  Kind of an awkward subject, y'know?"

Aside from being totally implausible, is it even honest?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2011 at 10:33pm

Dear Ron,

 
So, the fact is, though you claimed that we practically agree, yet in truth, you know are asserting that we do not.  You say that I have no evidence to support what I am saying.  But in fact, you do not have any evidence to support it.  You have explained your surmisings in detail so as to make them appear possible, and I grant you that much.  But in literature, that which is possible yet not actual is called realistic fiction.  So it is that this is exactly what you are asserting.
 
Contrary to your suggestion that I have no evidence to support what I am saying, I certainly do.  Here it is.  The one Gospel writer who goes into the virgin conception and birth of Jesus, as well as the death of Jesus on the cross, in great detail is the one author who left active ministry to go and live with St. John the Apostle and Mary herself in Ephesius for three years before writing his gospel.  That author is St. Luke, a physician.  It is well spoken of by the early church that during that time he got detail directly from Mary while sitting at her feet.  That is why he wrote about these things as he did when the others did not.  His data was not invented as time went on after the death of Jesus, but was revealed by Mary herself and by John, both, by the way, who were present at the death of Jesus and could relate it in detail as no one else could.  This is not evolution, but revelation, as I have been asserting with you all along.  You see, I do have evidence on my side:  the first century teaching about St. Luke and why he wrote what he did, and the evidence of his writing.  Do you have such powerful evidence to support your contrary assertions?  Haven't seen it yet.  Think about it, Ron.  The only real peace in life comes from admitting the truth, and then experiencing the aftermath (usually positive and growth filled).
 
God bless, Ron,
 
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2011 at 11:01pm
Re:  Mat. and Mark's relating of the story of the demon possessed daughter, the mother, and Jesus as being evidence of evolution of scripture due to human tampering.
 
We'll look, as always, at the author and his purpose of writing his gospel.  Matthew's was written to a Jewish audience, and his purpose was to confront the racist attitudes of the Jews and so lead them to be more global minded in their thinking.  The Jews were, per the OT, chosen to be the light of God to the world.  Matthew wanted to show that the faith of a non-Jew could be stronger in many respects that the faith of the Jews.  He did just that./  Mark, however, wanted to hold up an undying unstoppable faith before the gentiles to immitate, and so to also show that Jesus responds beyond what is expected if we have such a faith.  This simple fact, difference in motivation for writing their gospels, explains the differences between them.  Far from popular assertion, there is no evidence in these differences being anything but supporting of the purposes of the authors.  And the differences of each are compatible with the other.  So the differences do not equate to contradiction.
 
Simple explanation using obvious evidence, huh? 
 
God Bless you , all of you .


Edited by Jack Catholic - 01 September 2011 at 9:41pm
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 02 September 2011 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Re:  Mat. and Mark's relating of the story of the demon possessed daughter, the mother, and Jesus as being evidence of evolution of scripture due to human tampering.
 
We'll look, as always, at the author and his purpose of writing his gospel.  Matthew's was written to a Jewish audience, and his purpose was to confront the racist attitudes of the Jews and so lead them to be more global minded in their thinking.  The Jews were, per the OT, chosen to be the light of God to the world.  Matthew wanted to show that the faith of a non-Jew could be stronger in many respects that the faith of the Jews.  He did just that./  Mark, however, wanted to hold up an undying unstoppable faith before the gentiles to immitate, and so to also show that Jesus responds beyond what is expected if we have such a faith.  This simple fact, difference in motivation for writing their gospels, explains the differences between them.  Far from popular assertion, there is no evidence in these differences being anything but supporting of the purposes of the authors.  And the differences of each are compatible with the other.  So the differences do not equate to contradiction.
 
Simple explanation using obvious evidence, huh? 
 
God Bless you , all of you .


Besides not providing any evidence to back up your explanation, you fail to realize that your response completely ignores the Gospel of Luke's omission of the story.  Why did Luke's gospel omit the story?  Because as its target audience were the Gentiles, Luke probably felt the story would be too hard to swallow.  He also omitted it as it contradicted his message, which was that salvation through Jesus was open to Gentiles as well as Jews.

Regarding your claim that Matthew's purpose of including the story "was to confront the racist attitudes of the Jews and so lead them to be more global minded in their thinking", it fails to explain why Matthew used the same racist term the Jews used to refer to Gentiles.  If his purpose was to combat the racism of some Jews, he did not do a good job as he only perpetuated the same racist stereotypes.  It would be like if a white person wrote an essay condemning racism towards black people, but to do so used the N-word.  Using such a word would obviously take much of the passion out of an otherwise noble intention. 

Notice also that in both Mark and Matthew's accounts, Jesus only heals the woman's daughter after she accepted her position as being secondary to Jews.  That was her so-called "faith".  It is no surprise then that Luke completely eliminated the story.  To suggest that Gentiles have a stake in salvation, but only after the Jews have had their fill, would not be accepted very easily by Gentile Christians.  Therefore, the changing accounts from Mark to Matthew and eventually the complete omission of the story from Luke serves as evidence of evolution.

Originally posted by Jack

Simple explanation using obvious evidence, huh?


Indeed! 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 03 September 2011 at 10:52am
Dear IslamisPeace,
 
I applaud your fantastic post.  You stayed on topic, you spoke elloquantly, and you sounded awesome.  If all your posts were written in this manner, I'd love discussing and debating with you and would relish the opportunity. 
 
Some of what you have observed is correct.  Though I don't agree with all of your reasoning as to why the differences exist, nor with all of your assertations about the significance of the differences and their implications.  Yet above all, that was an excelent post in regards to manners.  Your excellent manners allowed the intelligence I know you have to shine through.  Well done!!!
 
I notice you never furthered the assertion in your post that the Holy Bible evolved.  Have come to agree with what so many of us on Islamicity Forums know to be true, that the Holy Bible did not evolve?  has not been tampered with by human hands over the centuries?
 
May Allah bless you, IslamisPeace!
 
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 04 September 2011 at 8:05am

Originally posted by Jack Catholic

So, the fact is, though you claimed that we practically agree, yet in truth, you know are asserting that we do not.  You say that I have no evidence to support what I am saying.  But in fact, you do not have any evidence to support it.  You have explained your surmisings in detail so as to make them appear possible, and I grant you that much.  But in literature, that which is possible yet not actual is called realistic fiction.  So it is that this is exactly what you are asserting.

We agree that the story of the virgin birth was not originally part of the Gospel, but emerged some time after Jesus died.  Our disagreement is on the source of that later addition, and on the appropriate word to describe it.

You believe that Mary is the source (via Luke), but that she kept this important information a secret throughout Jesus' life and allowed everyone to believe that Joseph was the natural father.  You have no evidence to support this theory.  (Simply asserting the same claim with more detail does not count as evidence.)

I believe that the story was an embellishment added by the later Gospel writers.  I have no evidence for this either, but I find it hard to imagine that Mary would have allowed a falsehood about Jesus to be perpetuated for more than thirty years without saying a word.  (I also find it hard to believe that Mark knew about it but failed to mention it.  I'm not sure if that is still your claim.)

Either way, regardless of how or why it changed, or who initiated the change, the story did change significantly.  It simply comes down to a question of whether we would use the term "evolve" to apply to such a change.  I would, and you wouldn't.  But then, as far as I can see, you would never use that word regardless of the facts.  You can always retreat into "divine inspiration" or "progressive revelation" to dismiss any evidence that could be offered.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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