IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: The Holy Gospel did not evolve!

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Jack Catholic
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Posted: 13 July 2011 at 7:28pm

Dear Hasan,

I have directed nearly all of my posts on the last 3-4 pages toward you, but lest you feel that I am trying to put you on the spot, (I am, but I also am simply answering your challanges in your previous posts), I will summarize my questions to you in list form as well from my previouse posts which have not been answered yet. And, for you sense of peace, I'll open the questions up to anyone who would like to answer them.

My next post will be that list, cut from previouse posts and listed by subject. I do hope, however, that you will take the time to answer my questions. I really do not know much about the Islamic faith, and so feel free to use this opportunity to teach some of it to me. Yes, the topic of the string is the evolution of the Holy Bible, but I am not beyond learning about your beliefs and the teachings of Muhammad...

May Allah bless you, Hasan,

Jack Catholic

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Jack Catholic
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Posted: 15 July 2011 at 8:40pm

Dear Hassan,

I was just rereading your most recent post, and I realized some things you said that don't make sense to me. So I'll ask you about them.

You said regarding my post on the divinity of Jesus, "...plus you lack substance and understanding." How so, my friend? Can you explain how you come to this conclusion?

To Lary's verse, John 14:26, you said, "Here 'Father' will send the 'Holy Spirit' clearly shows who is the boss, who can send who. Father or more rightly God will send Holy Spirit seems jsut right and I have no problem with that. It clearly shows that God has power over holy spirit, so He sends it! That makes it very clear that Holy Spirit is not God but subject to God, and what is subject to God is not God."

Dear Hasan, you are doing the same thing to this verse that you did with John 14:28. You are assuming that the Holy Spirit is seperate from the Father. But you haven't prooven that the Author, John, believed that the Holy Spirit was seperate. You are adding your own meaning and claiming that this meaning is obvious. I challange you to prove the meaning you are giving to the verse is the meaning St. John intended. Show me by John's writing that he taught or even believed that the Holy Spirit was a seperate being rather than God himself. Simply placing your own interpretation on a verse does not make it so. In a past posting, I showed that the first century Christians believed that the Holy Spirit was the power of Allah, a power that could not be seperated from Allah in any way, shape, or form, but which could reside within each of us all at the same time as it was Allah himself. Allah is so infinite that he can thus send His power wherever and whenever He wants to. With this understanding, there is not contradiction in the Holy Bible, nor is your explanation of the meaning of the verse even accurate.

You wrote, "Jack, you are saying that you aught to be a Christian first in order to understand the following verse. That is a shame, because, things have to make sense first before you accept something so important as one's belief, at least in Islam that is how it is."

My friend Hasan, no, I am not saying that you must be Christian first in order to understand the verse. But when a verse of the Holy Bible is in question, it only makes common sense that if you want to know its correct meaning, you should ask a Christian who knows his faith rather than ask a Muslim teacher who really only knows Islam. Let me illustrate using Italian and Spanish. Both languages are Latin based and so similar that you can speak one in the country of the other an get along pretty well. However, if an Italian went to a restaurant in Mexico and asked for a Calzone (a pizza turnover in Italy), the Mexican waiter would get very angry and throw the Italian out into the street because calzone in Spanish means boxer shorts. Should they come to a physical fight over the situation, of shouldn't they both investigate the missunderstanding and thus learn the intent of the Italian speaker who is hungry? Common sense will tell you that the Mexican should ask the intentional message of the Italian in using the language he used, not another Mexican who does not know Italian. So it is that you should not us Islam in asserting the meaning of Christian wording in the Holy Bible, but rather search out the intentional meaning of the authors, who were Christian. Do you agree, Hasan?

Regarding John 14:28, I have clearly shown that Jesus is equal to Allah in his divinity, but lesser to Allah in his humanity. Simple concept, no? Clear, simple, and oh so correct. Pray about it...

May Allah bless you, Hasan,

Jack Catholic

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honeto

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Posted: 18 July 2011 at 5:31pm

Jack,

I am sorry about not repsonding for a few days to your posts, that is jsut because of being very busy at work and working late and then being busy with family. But make no mistake that it is no excuse nor do I feel that you were able to answer even a percent of post, simply because you cannot. There is nothing for you to do after I have exposed those verses to you. You are trying very hard to go around in circles again or diestract by irrelevent issues, nothing new.

You contradict again by saying the following: "I have clearly shown that Jesus is equal to Allah in his divinity, but lesser to Allah in his humanity." God is not a human so you say his "humanity". You can measure or talk of humanity of a human. All of the quotes from the Bible that I use in my previous posts show very clear without doubt that Jesus himself has said it, that "my Father is greater than I" It is the final nail in the coffin of assuptions that includes these rants: "Jesus and God is equal". Now we know, from the Bible itself, in contrast to Chritian belief and teachings that Jesus has a God and that God is greater than Jesus. In English, greater does not mean equal, make a note of it my friend.

Bottom line:

With the Biblical quotes we know that NT states that there is a "God of Jesus Christ"

And that Jesus in one verse clarifies that Father (God) is Greater than him.

And that whatever Jesus did was with the help of God, and without that help he could not have done those things.

And we also saw clear quotes from the NT that showed that Holy Spirit or Ghost, claimed by Christians to be equal to God and part of God infact is subject to God, and we know that if anyone is subject to anyone is not God. The only one not subject to anyone is of course God. And you just need common sense to understand that, and need not be from a particualr belief.

So, like a lion's roar, these facts are echoing across the horizon. Only facts do that, right?

So, I may be busy and come back after a while but you have time to come up with something better, but let me tell you, by God you cannot, other than by the way of dec.........

I better not say anything else.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 18 July 2011 at 5:38pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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honeto

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Posted: 18 July 2011 at 5:49pm

Originally posted by Larry

Hasan,

What a pathetic and mean-spirited reply to Jack. Your complete and utter misunderstanding of even the basics of Christianity is painfully obvious. Saying things like "Catholics are the greatest losers of the 20th century..." Also your opening statement, "Jack, you have just proved that you have lost the argument and accepted your defeat..." is silly and pretentious. I don't read anywhere where Jack "accepted" his "defeat." It seems you feel the need to announce your "win" and also felt the need to put your "reply" in bold and larger size type, the hallmark of someone who is insecure in their rantings. Perhaps you should pray for your own 'guidance."

Larry

Larry,

sorry to hurt your feelings, but I care more for speaking the truth, for me it has more value than anything else.

Truth is not sometimes sweet, but don't expect me to suger coat it with something that is not the truth.

You should stand up for truth, not Jerry or Jack, trust me one day you will thank me for giving you that advice.

There are three quotes from your own Bible (there are many more, but three are sufficient) that is enough to defeat anyone's who argues that God the Father, God the Holy Ghost, God the son are equal. And that Holy Ghost and Jesus are all God.

Here I am glad to post those two of those three quotes, please take time and read:

2 Corinthians 11:31

³¹ "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, the one who is blessed forever, knows that I’m not lying..."

John 14:28

" ........because the Father is greater than me."

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 18 July 2011 at 5:50pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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islamispeace
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Posted: 18 July 2011 at 6:02pm

A monumental response by brother Hasan! Short and sweet! Jazak Allah Khair for your efforts at showing the truth using simple concepts and common sense. Well done.

Edited by islamispeace - 18 July 2011 at 6:07pm

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Larry
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Posted: 18 July 2011 at 6:41pm

Hasan,

   Well, bud, you have evaded answering my simple and direct questions ONCE AGAIN by simply respouting your own nonsense and expecting that to be accepted without question. As I stated at the end of my post to you, "If you can't or won't answer them at least have the honesty to admit it."

   But you couldn't do it, could you?

   You have shown that you cannot even stand up for your own religion and answer questions that seem to be difficult, if not impossible, for you to answer.

   I understand your dilemma because the fact is that you CANNOT answer the five simple questions that I asked you, because to do so would show exactly how unprepared you are to understand and defend your own faith.

   Now that I have exposed your complete and utter hypocrisy and lack of ability to STAND UP for your beliefs, I have no further intention of wasting my time on a person like you. One who can dish it out to others but sure can't take the heat himself when faced with simple and direct questions.

   Even with islamispeace's rather lame attempt to cover for you and draw attention away from your cop-out and lack of Islamic knowledge, you still end up being seen for who you are, a big mouth who likes to force his views on others but when those views are questioned you simply run away like a spoiled child.

   Why am I not surprised?

   To quote you; "Larry, sorry to hurt your feelings, but I care more for speaking the truth, for me it has more value than anything else. Truth is not sometimes sweet, but don't expect me to sugercoat it with something that is not the truth. You should 'stand up' for truth, not Jerry or Jack, trust me one day you will thank me for giving you that advice."

   Jerry and Jack have more courage and personal integrity than you will ever possess because they stand up for their faith and answer your questions and don't run and hide behind empty words and cheap advice.

   Too bad that you're not more like them. And YOU had the nerve to say to Jack; "I am sorry to burst your bubble but Catholics are the greatest losers of the 20th century..."

   What a childish and hypocritical coward you are.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 18 July 2011 at 7:26pm

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honeto

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Posted: 19 July 2011 at 12:57pm

Larry,

I am sorry again for you and your position. I know the truth hurts, but it takes a brave truth seeker to accept it.

Your words are only an evidence against you, and one day will be used against you in the court of Absoulute Law of the All knowing, too bad you don't beleive in such accountability yet, I hope you do yourself a favor one day and submit to that truth. Only after that you will never stand up for what is not truth even if it brings you difficulties of this life.

As always, I make my answers short, to the point, and I only speak of what I have knowledge of.

Answers to Jack are based on his comments and questions to me. If I remember well it was him who was saying things that were not true of Islam and Muslims. In response to his false assumptions, I gave him a true picture of where Islam and other religions stood in 20th century according to a report published in a newspaper here in Texas at the turn of the century. This report which is done by the Catholic church had data showing how each of the major religion did in 20th century. And its, if I remember well, biggest gainer was Islam with a double digit percentage growth, Catholics were in red numbers, which means according to their own records and study Catholics were the biggest losers of the 20th century. Muslims were the biggest winners of the 20th century. Is bring out facts hurt your feelings or burst your bubble. I agree that I cannot suger coat facts, I am a bit dry, a admit it. The only reason I do that is so I don't get closer to hypocracy.

I know you Jack have been trying to get this into some kind of personal thingy, but I refuse to fall into your trap. I will keep bringing you the facts and stay on the topic.

Topic is if "the Gospel has not evolved".

I say, if that is true, and that the Gospel is still the same as when revealed by God, then we should not find any discripencies in its contents. Its contents should not contradict itself, if it has been kept in its original state as word of the All Knowing, who knows all, and do not contradict nor is He inconsistent.

Based on the above standard, which I beleive we both agree, if not let me know so I can address it accordingly, we will be able to easily prove or disprove that the Gospel has not evolved.

The biggest prove of Gospel evolution is in the fact that the Catholic Gospel is different than KJV and so on. Even a word of difference between the two is too much, we are talking of books here, right? And on top of that you don't have an original to go back to for reference or checks to make sure one is not off.

But let us leave that for a while, even though it is a valid point.

Because you and I did not live through its two thousand year journey to know each of its alteration or not, neither we are in position to know and find out the intention of its writers or alterors so we we left with evidence alone.

And that is all we are doing, putting the evidence to the test, in this case the Gospel and Jack's claim that it has not evolved.

Jack also claims and he bases his claim to have come from the same Gospel that God is: God the Father, God the Holy Ghost, God the Son. He claims that those three are equal in power and they are all God. In other words, Jesus is God, Holy Ghost is God, and Father is God.

Based on the contents of the Gospel, it is evident that he will have to chose: either, his concept of God has evolved, or if he says that it is from the Gospel then the Gospel has evolved.

Here is how. If Jack is right in his description and claim that his concept of God as I described abovec has came from Gospel and if that happened to be case then the Gospel should not contain anything to contradict what he is claiming. If anything is inconsistent or contradicting to his claim within the Gospel, it is evidence agianst his claim and proves him wrong. Plain and simple. If his source does not agree with him claim, he lost, and that is the question first at hand. So, it is of no use to be complaining that I asked this or that. If any of you have any other issue to discuss or question ot ask, please do so but in appropriate topic or create one if needed.

I have before wrote a few quotes from the Gospels that showed and proved that what Jack claimed that three persons of the Trinity are equal in powerand all three are God. But if one reads the source of that claim will find the Gospel negating that claim in various places. Simply that proves that the Gospel is in contradiction to itself, where it tells Jack that God is three part, each equal to each other. The same source cannot prove that claim by contradicting it when it also says that the three are not equal or one is subject to the other, or one having the other as God.

Let us examine those quotes:

I have used this one in my post before it is so clear in its words and essence that you need not to explain it, except when you don't agree with it:

2 Corinthians 11:31 "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, the one who is blessed forever, knows that I’m not lying..."

here is another one:

John 14:28

" ........because the Father is greater than me."

The above two quotes prove two things for sure: First, that Jesus has a God and second, that he is not equal to God or Father, who in his own clear words, according to the Gospel is Greater than him.

You know I took time and opened one of notebooks, my "Bible study" notes as you insisted. For me those few quotes were enough to show you my point, but you are asking for more, so here are some more:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

What can be clearer than to say "my God and your God" Jesus is supposed to have said that.

Another quote:

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...."

Does that mean anything else other than that "God of Jesus?"

So, if we are interested in evidence, its plenty, to show that Jesus is neither God instead has a God, nor is he equal to God, even according to the Gospel.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 19 July 2011 at 1:09pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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honeto

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Posted: 19 July 2011 at 1:14pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

A monumental response by brother Hasan! Short and sweet! Jazak Allah Khair for your efforts at showing the truth using simple concepts and common sense. Well done.

Jazakallah,

you know it is so funny that how some people will do anything to dodge the evidence and truth, I bet they are sitting in some cubical and getting paid to do so.

May God guide such people.

Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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