islamispeace,

   Sorry about that. I had assumed that you could deal with more than a single issue at a time.

Larry

Dear Hasan,

You have made claims to have presented plenty of biblical scripture showing contradiction in the Holy Bible. In fact, you have until now only pointed out two verses that to you are contradiction. You have offered to open your notes and show more, so to begin with, I will say that I would very much like that. Please do open your notes and print all of the scriptures that in your mind show contradiction in the Holy Bible that are related to the divinity of Jesus. You have stated that the Holy Bible is in contradiction to itself on the Holy Trinity, Salvation, and the divinity of Jesus. I have well proven the consistency and lack of contradiction of the NT with itself on the first two issues, and of the NT with the OT on the same two issues. Now, let us press on with the divinity of Jesus. Please show more than just two verses of NT scripture to prove your point. You are making things too easy on me. I like a challenge.

I will begin with first quoting from my post on the Holy Trinity which you have not refuted, even addressed (could this be because it has no refutation?). This will be in italics in case you wish to fast forward through it and get to the part about the two verses you’ve posted. You said contradiction is evidence of human tampering…. I…called into question your interpretation of Holy Biblical scripture as incorrect because it is based on the teachings of the Holy Qur‘an which (I’ve shown using your reasoning) has been tampered with by humans. So far you have not argued with either of these assertions.

Let’s look at the second possibility I have mentioned in this post so far: mistaken interpretation in regards to contradiction in the Holy Bible. Remember, you are trying to prove that the Holy Bible was originally correct revelation, and that humans have tampered with it changing some of its contents (evolution) resulting in contradiction. I’ll prove four things about some of what you have claimed to be contradiction: 1) that it was actually believed by the church before the writing of the Gospels because Jesus actually taught what you claim to be a contradiction, 2) that the first century Christians believed this teaching, and 3) that the Apostles later wrote it into what is now the Holy Bible. Then 4) I will show that there is no contradiction when the first century interpretations are used. If I can do this, than your claims, dear Hasan, will fall flat and useless, and you will have to admit that the Holy Bible did not evolve.

You wrote in your post of June 2 on page 13, “You claim Bible teaches you that Jesus is God. I had shown you the verses that clearly stated that Jesus infact acknowledged to have a God to whom he served, worshipped, cried for help to, and returned to.”

My dear friend, up to this point in this string of posts, you had presented no such verses. Are you sure that you were not thinking of another string of posts on the divinity of Jesus and confusing it with this one? Either way, please present the verses of which you speak and we will see if you are understanding them accurately. Accuracy is critical to understanding truth, as you have demonstrated with the Qur’anic verses Sura 2:97 and Sura 16:101 in which I pointed out the obvious meanings and the contradictions they reveal, and you then presented a different interpretation which you have been taught but which removes the contradiction which I saw. I look forward to what you have to share from your notes.

In your same post, you wrote: “There is a verse in the NT that states "no one has ever seen God". That is proven to contradict with you and your claim that Jesus was God, who was seen by huge number of people. It also contradict with the OT where some older prophets are quoted to have seen God.

Jack, I can open my notes about more such facts that I found through my own study about the Bible, but I think the above is enough to prove my point.”

My response to this is as follows: As you did not print any verse for me to investigate, I am left simply to investigate the issue which you have presented. I challenge you again to present actual verses which I can then look up and investigate. Well, just the same, following is a web sight that simply explains in two simple paragraphs some of the verses which may be in your notes so that you and all readers just following along with this string of posts may see that there truly is no contradiction in regards to seeing the face of God and that again in the absence of contradiction we can again safely say that the Holy Bible has not evolved: www.gotquestions.org/seen-God.html

Let us fast forward to your posting of June 9 on Page 14 of this string to see what you wrote again on the subject of the divinity of Jesus. Here we actually have some biblical verses. As we have them I can analyze them according to the standards you have laid out for testing the Holy Bible and its authenticity. Your words follow:

“For example, you claim that Jesus is son of God (which simply would make him God) part of God in a Trinity. Has that been the truth, it would have been consistent with what you believe to be God's word, the Bible but it is not. And it is not my interpretation rather exact words of the Bible that prove that instead of being God, Jesus indeed has a God, who is greater than him, according to the same Bible, and not equal as you insist.

Let me quote some of those verses, again:

2 Corinthians 11:31

Common English Bible (CEB)

31 "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, the one who is blessed forever, knows that I’m not lying..."

Even if we stop right here one cannot but understand only what it says, that "the God.... of the Lord Jesus" Jesus has God. Can you read it any other way? unless something else pre-determined.

John 14:28

" ........because the Father is greater than me."

These are suppose to be word of Jesus (pbuh) for those of you who think Jesus was equal to God or was God, this one is a punch right in the middle... from your very own source that you use in your claim teachs that Jesus was son of God or God, or that Jesus was equal to God.

Please address the above, clear, simple and short.”

I have already proved that the Holy Trinity is consistant in NT and between OT and NT without any attempt from you to refute what I wrote. But you did provide two biblical verses that in your mind contradict Jesus’ divinity. So let’s look at each. First, 2 Cor 11:31 per your hand: “31 "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, the one who is blessed forever, knows that I’m not lying..."

The first century Christians never believed that Jesus had a God. I cannot find evidence that they did. You have not proven with quotes from the first century that they did. So I assert that the first century Christians did not believe that Jesus had a God, as you say the verse indicates. I will suggest that you have simply done to this verse what you claim I did to Surrah’s 2:97 and 16:101, interpret it incorrectly. Nowhere in the Holy Bible to you see any indication that Jesus had a God. Therefore, as there is no precedent for your interpretation, we must assume that it is simply your interpretation and that of Muslims who agree with you. Simply looking at the English sentence structure of the verse, we see the word “and” which is joining two items together in the same sentence (this is 4rth grade English grammer, by the way). The first item joined is the subject of the sentence, and that is God. The second item joined by the word “and” is “Father of the Lord Jesus.” How do we know that “of the Lord Jesus” is describing the word “Father” and not also the word “God?” It is simple. If “of the Lord Jesus” were describing the word “God”, the word “God” would have been followed by the word “of” placed before the word “and.” The sentence would have read, “The God of and Father of the Lord Jesus.” This writing would have very clearly indicated what you claim the verse to be saying, dear Hasan. But this is not what is written. Another reason that your interpretation of the verse cannot be accurate is that we must consider the author. The author was St. Paul, who was trained first by Galiel, one of the most famous Jewish teachers, then by St. Peter who went to his death defending the belief that Jesus was God himself and a member of the Holy Trinity. Peter and Paul both gave their very lives to the teaching that Jesus was God, not that Jesus had a God. So we must assume that his writing mirrored what he taught of God: that Jesus was God, not that he had a God. When we read the verse according to the beliefs of the first century Church and the beliefs of its author and its author’s teachers, it clearly names God, then after the word “and” clarifies which God by identifying Him to be “the Father of the Lord Jesus.”

Now, about John 14:28

" ........because the Father is greater than me."

Here we have a verse that at simple first glance could cause confusion amongst Christian believers. Let us look at the what the first century Christians believed about Jesus. First, we see that the first century church including the Apostles believed that Jesus was God, per the writing of St. Ignatius of Antioch: "[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]). About St. Ignatius, he was a disciple of St. John the Apostles, also known as the Beloved of Jesus. He was taught at the feet of St. John with what Jesus taught St. John. He was then named as the second Bishop of Antioch, where he stayed bishop till just after the death of St. John.

Also, everyone who had known Jesus SO knew that he was human that there was never any question about this during the Apostles’ lifetimes. Thus, there are really no writings about Jesus humanity accept in the Holy Bible which you can read yourself. Muhammad did not even doubt the humanity of Jesus. Enough said.

It is from the first century that the Catholic Church has the belief that Jesus is fully God AND fully human. Not one, nor the other, not part God and part human, but fully both.

When we understand the truth of the beliefs of the first century Christians as Jesus and His Apostles taught, the above verse no longer is in contradiction with the belief that Jesus is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit. So now, let me explain the verse which you have called upon, John14:28: " ........because the Father is greater than me."

Jesus in his divinity is one with the Father, is equal we might say. But in his humanity, the Father is greater than Jesus. Something of this relationship between Jesus and the father can be seen in Genesis 41:40 where the Pharaoh of Egypt gives Joseph of Israel a job: "You [Joseph] shall be over my [Pharaoh] house, and all my [Pharaoh] people shall order themselves as you [Joseph] command. Only as regards the throne will I [Pharaoh] be greater than you [Joseph].”

It is the same with Jesus and the Father (Allah): Allah (God) sits on the throne in all his Glory, while Jesus (also God) stands with human feet on the earth in all humble humanity. This is why the Catholic Church says that Jesus came from the Father and is, “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, one in being with the Father.” meaning that Jesus is one and the same (equal) with God the Father. At the same time the Church believes as the Holy Bible states, that the Father is greater than Jesus, all without contradiction.

Without contradiction, we have no evidence of evolution of scripture, Hasan. Again, you will have to refute what the Catholic Church believes and teaches, or accept the legitimacy of the Holy Bible, and thus Christianity. I’ll be waiting for your response (you have a great deal to respond to, as I believe I have refuted all of your evidence so far presented in this string). I also don’t see anyone coming to your aid with anything substantial. But hey, open your “notes” and pour out its contents and we’ll try to continue discussing the “evolution” of the Holy Bible. Don’t give up yet!

God bless you, Hasan,

Jack Catholic

Jack & Larry,

Hasan,

   I quoted John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all the things I said to you."

   You consistently reveal a simplistic, one dimensional view of God and insist that someone has to be "the boss." Jesus said that God the Father would send the Holy Spirit IN MY NAME who "will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all the things that I have said to you."

   Question 1. This shows that God is clearly saying that the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are equal in all things, for why would the Holy Spirit be sent IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST (rather than in the name of God) to teach the remembrance of "ALL THE THINGS THAT I (Jesus Christ) SAID TO YOU?"

   Question 2. So I ask you, who do you believe that the "Holy Spirit" is? You, for whatever reason, write the words "holy spirit" in lower case letters, contrary to the way it is written in John and quoted above. Do you do this to lessen the "importance" of the Holy Spirit so that it can be seen or understood as inferior to God?

   Question 3. And do you believe that the "Helper" (lit. Comforter Gr. Parakletos) that Jesus said would come after Him, refers in ANY way to the prophet Muhammad?

   As I have said, your one dimensional view of God refuses to consider the idea that God is greater than your human comprehension of Him and His true nature.

   I can understand why you would have trouble understanding the nature of the Holy Trinity in light of your beliefs as a Muslim because you do not accept the fact that Jesus Christ was crucified, died and was resurrected after three days in order to make it possible for flawed, sinful humankind to be worthy of Salvation and reunion with God in heaven after death.

   As I have said before, it is odd to me that Muslims accept almost all the things that the "prophet" Jesus Christ had to say except ANY reference to Himself as the Son of God or in His role as Savior. In Christianity the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Messiah of God and fulfiller of Old Testament prophecies and bringer of Salvation through His sacrifice, is the central pillar of our belief. That is the difference between Christians and Muslims.

   Question 4. You did not respond to my question of why the Qur'an in Surah 3:45 refers to the name of Jesus as "Christ Jesus," when I clearly showed the translation "Christ" to mean the "Christos" or the "anointed" Messiah of the Jews? Why would the Qur'an use the specific name "Christ Jesus"?

   Question 5. You also did not respond to my question as to whether there were any other "prophets" who could heal the blind and lepers (among others) and raise to dead back to life?

   The Qur'an says that it was by "Allah's leave" that Jesus Christ did these things, which Christians also believe. Jesus Christ Himself, just before calling Lazarus back to life, said, "Father, I thank You and You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent me. Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth!"

   And, in my words, Lazarus came out alive from his tomb after being dead for four days.

   John 3:16-17

   16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
   17. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

   Please respond to the five direct questions that I have asked you in the above text rather than just complain that my questions are "too long" (even though shorter than a number of your own posts, such as the one of 26 May) or that they "lack substance and understanding," for you to deal with. If you can't or won't answer them at least have the honesty to admit it.

Larry

   

     

Edited by Larry - 13 July 2011 at 5:27pm