Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: The Holy Gospel did not evolve! Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 74 Next >>
Author Message
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1603
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 16 May 2011 at 4:46pm
To be precise, though, 3:84 says that Muslims make no distinction among the books given to the prophets, not among the prophets themselves.  Those books, in particular the books of the Bible, do regard Jesus as distinct in many ways (see http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-unique.html, for example).  Even the Quran, if I recall correctly, gives Jesus a special place among the prophets as the one who will return to preside over the end times.
 
Moreover, Muslims do make a sharp distinction when it comes to Muhammad and the Quran, which makes 3:84 all the more puzzling.  How can Muslims say that they "make no distinction" between the Quran and the books of the Bible?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1798
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 17 May 2011 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by Shibbo

Exactly! As shown by members of this forum in reference to the Gospel, before the end of the second century there is universal acceptance of the four Gospels as we all agree, the only disagreement is textual veriations, much like any acient book that is being copied over. The teachings of Jesus virtually remained the same down till this day.


And this is evidence of Christianity's evolution over the centuries!  More on that later. 

First, you once again ignore the evidence or purposefully alter it to fit your view.  The disagreement is not just on "textual variations" but rather additions and deletions which can only be attributed to deliberate changes made by scribes.  We are not talking about errors in copying.  We are talking about deliberate changes to the text, not due to mistakes but due to calculated intention.  I have already presented the testimony of early Church fathers who admitted to this phenomenon.  Those who chose to ignore this are only deluding themselves.

Now on to what I said about Christianity's evolution.  Shibbo has appealed to the writings of some 2nd century Christians, such as Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaeus of Lyons.  What he does not realize is that the appeal to these individuals serves to actually prove that the Christian canon was evolving, an issue which is relevant to this thread.  We can quickly refute any argument that the references to the Gospels by these writers in the 2nd century proves anything about the authenticity of those Gospels.  All it would show is that 2nd century Christians were using those books.  So for instance, just because Justin Martyr may have referred to a verse from the Gospel of Matthew (without actually naming it), this does not prove that the entire Gospel of Matthew has not been changed and is thus reliable.  The archaeological evidence suggests otherwise, as we have previously seen.

So how does the appeal to the three Christian apologists actually damage the central argument of this thread?  Simple: if we consider the writings of the three in chronological order, we find the following:

1.  Ignatius of Antioch can be shown to have referred to only two of the Gospels, and those also only via fragmented verses.  He refers in three instances to the Gospel of Matthew and in one instance to the Gospel of Luke [1].  He also quotes from the letters of Paul and the Book of Acts.  There are no references to the Gospel of Mark or the Gospel of John.  The fact that the latter is conspicuously absent is very telling.  The Gospel of John, as Christian tradition states, should have already been completed by the time Ignatius was writing. 

2.  Justin Martyr references three of the Gospels, again only via fragments.  He also perhaps refers to the Book of Revelation, but none of the letters of Paul or the Book of Acts [2].  Whether he actually referenced the Gospel of John is a matter of debate.  It has been claimed that 1 Apology 66 is a reference to John 3:3-5, but Justin Martyr does not refer to this quote as he does to other quotations from the other Gospels using the phrase "recorded in the memoirs of the apostles..."  Therefore, in the absence of clear quotations from the Gospel of John, we can only be certain that Justin Martyr was familiar with only three of them: Mark, Matthew and John [05/18/2011 - Correction: Mark, Matthew and Luke].

3.  Irenaeus of Lyons does indeed say that there are only four Gospels and as such, he is the absolute earliest Church father to say this.  He also quotes heavily from the letters of Paul and also some of the other epistles.  But, he also quotes from the aprocryphal book, the Shepherd of Hermas!

From the above, we see a clear evolution.  Even if we accept that Justin Martyr may have referred to the Gospel of John, it is clear that in the early 2nd century, Ignatius was familiar with only Matthew and Luke.  Therefore, the popularity and usage of the Gospels clearly changed over the course of the 2nd century.  Therefore, the Christian canon evolved! 

It should be pointed out again that even if Ignatius had referred to all of the canonical Gospels in the early 2nd century, it would prove nothing about the textual reliability of those books.  Several decades would have already passed (if the traditional dates are correct) since the first three Gospels were written.  Whatever changes may have occurred during that span cannot be known.     

Furthermore, as I have already show several times, Church fathers like Dionysius and Origen were aware of the scribal changes and decried them.  There has been no response from either Shibbo or Jack to these damning testimonies. 

And finally, let me repeat once again for those who have trouble reading simple English, that the presence of an error, no matter how small or insignificant, in a book which claims to be "inspired" is proof that the book is not "inspired", as the Catholic Encyclopedia states:

""The influence of the Holy Ghost had to extend also to all the executive faculties of the sacred writer — to his memory, his imagination, and even to the hand with which he formed the letters. Whether this influence proceed immediately from the action of the Inspirer or be a simple assistance, and, again, whether this assistance be positive or merely negative, in any case everyone admits that its object is to remove all error from the inspired text.""

Furthermore, the fact that the error had to be eventually removed is evidence that the Gospel in question had to be proof-read by an "editorial staff" to ensure that it was error-free.  This, ladies and gentlemen, is evidence of that Gospel's "evolution" from a purely human book into an "inspired" book which is now error-free (although that depends on which version of the Bible you read).

And God knows best!  


Edited by islamispeace - 18 May 2011 at 1:24pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1603
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 17 May 2011 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by Jack Catholic

I noticed you said, "As a humanist I am frustrated by the harm people do to themseves and others in the name of false gods..."  Have I done any harm to myself or anyone in the name of false gods on this forum, or with my life that you know of?  What harm do you think Catholicism might lead me to do to myself or to others?  I'd just like to know from your perspective...
 
I was somewhat surprised by this question, although I guess in retrospect I shouldn't have been.  It seems to me like almost every time Catholicism is in the news on any subject, it is taking a position that causes (or at least allows) harm to somebody; but I guess if you're a true believer, you have some kind of mental filter that blocks such cognitive dissonance.
 
I don't want to digress into an anti-Catholic rant so I'm not going to mention homosexuality, abortion, stem cell research, or the harm done by clerical celibacy.  (Oh dang it, I guess I just did, didn't I?Smile)  I'm not even going to focus on contraception per se.
 
Instead, let's just consider the Pope's prohibition of condoms, even to reduce transmission of AIDS.  That was certainly his position until recently, although I understand that recent remarks have opened up some ambiguity on the subject.  Even so, how many thousands of people have suffered and died unnecessarily because of this dogmatic foolishness?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
Jack Catholic
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 24 March 2010
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 369
Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 17 May 2011 at 9:10pm

Dear Ron,

 
Got-cha!  I know all about the issues you have mentioned:  homosexuality, abortion, stem cell research, clerical celibacy, and contraception (such as condumns), as well as euthanasia, adoption, and many others.  You are right, this is a digression.  I can probably explain your side of these issue so as to make you think that I oppose the Catholic Church very deeply.  I know the phylosophical perspectives, statistical, medical and moral perspectives of these issues as well.  Perhaps we might one day discuss them on this forum.  I'd be interested in the Muslim perspective on them.  One, day, maybe...
 
I admire you for being aware of so many issues, and hope that one day we'll actually discuss some of them.
 
Hey, I'll talk to you later.  It's time for me to go to bed.
 
Jack Catholic
 
 
IP IP Logged
Jack Catholic
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 24 March 2010
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 369
Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 17 May 2011 at 9:22pm
Dear IslamisPeace,
 
I very much like your most recent post.  It is dignified, well thought out and well presented, and you write it as only a prince can do.  I like it when you post in this fassion.  I have been researching your assertions and evidence, but I have not responded to it because I am watching to see if you can enter a discussion without giving in to ridiculing and name calling.  In your last post to Shiboleth you did give in to temptation, falling to it and writing some shamefull comments.  I am dying to discuss the issues with you, but I havn't yet seen enough gentlemanly posting from you to make the effort worth my time.
 
Great material, though!!!
 
Jack Catholic
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1798
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2011 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Dear IslamisPeace,
 
I very much like your most recent post.  It is dignified, well thought out and well presented, and you write it as only a prince can do.  I like it when you post in this fassion.  I have been researching your assertions and evidence, but I have not responded to it because I am watching to see if you can enter a discussion without giving in to ridiculing and name calling.  In your last post to Shiboleth you did give in to temptation, falling to it and writing some shamefull comments.  I am dying to discuss the issues with you, but I havn't yet seen enough gentlemanly posting from you to make the effort worth my time.
 
Great material, though!!!
 
Jack Catholic


Well, Jack if you continue making such melodramatic posts as this one, then I am afraid we will not be able to have a conversation.  What I can't stand about you is your absolute refusal to apply the same standards you apply to other religions and other points of view than what you apply to your own religion.  We don't need to reopen old issues but you know what I am talking about. 

As I have said already, whether you choose to respond or not is not really my concern.  As long as others benefit, I will be satisfied.  I am more interested in Shibbo's response, as he was the one who made the claims I responded to in my last post.  But even if he does not respond (or tries to divert to another issue which he always does), it will not be of any concern to me.  Rather, I will just humor him as I always do.    


Edited by islamispeace - 18 May 2011 at 1:21pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Jack Catholic
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 24 March 2010
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 369
Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2011 at 8:35pm
Dear Islamispeace,
 
Yup.
 
That's the thing, sir.  You need to loose the humor thing.  It is funny to you, but not to anybody else.  In fact, it tends to be very rude and disrespectful.  I think you'd get a much better run for your efforts and great talent if you'd use a little  bit of that gentlemanly and royal manner that occasionally I see in your posts.  Good manners mixed with your natural talent and intelligence, mixed with just a pinch of kindness and I really think you would be held in high esteem on these forum boards by more than just few, and all would see debating with you as an honor and a challange.
 
I know you say you really don't care.  I wish you did, because there is so much good you could do for everyone here on the Islamicity Forum board.  You have a lot to offer, man.  You just have to learn how to package it so that we all can swallow it.
 
Just some friendly suggestions,
 
Jack Catholic
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1798
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2011 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Dear Islamispeace,
 
Yup.
 
That's the thing, sir.  You need to loose the humor thing.  It is funny to you, but not to anybody else.  In fact, it tends to be very rude and disrespectful.  I think you'd get a much better run for your efforts and great talent if you'd use a little  bit of that gentlemanly and royal manner that occasionally I see in your posts.  Good manners mixed with your natural talent and intelligence, mixed with just a pinch of kindness and I really think you would be held in high esteem on these forum boards by more than just few, and all would see debating with you as an honor and a challange.
 
I know you say you really don't care.  I wish you did, because there is so much good you could do for everyone here on the Islamicity Forum board.  You have a lot to offer, man.  You just have to learn how to package it so that we all can swallow it.
 
Just some friendly suggestions,
 
Jack Catholic


No offense Jack, but I don't need your "friendly suggestions".  You and I have been through this already.  Delving on this useless matter is futile and more importantly, it is a diversion from the topic.  Let me just make a few points and afterwards let us get back to the actual topic.  'Kay?  What can I say?  I am a fun-loving guy who just loves to expose people who think they are "papa bear" and all other are just little children who need to be "taught" the "truth".  Your posts carry a certain level of arrogance, as Ron has pointed out.   

And surely my style of discussion should not interfere with one's ability to respond to my arguments?  Is it my tone or "rudeness" which impairs your ability to answer or is it that you have nothing to offer as a rebuttal?  (Holds chin and ponders)...

I have met many "rude" people on this and other forums.  There was this guy called "Jouberar".  You may remember him.  The guy said the most awful things about Islam and Muhammad (pbuh).  No Christian poster ever told him to stop.  Did that stop me and others from demolishing his arguments?  Absolutely not!  In fact, I had a lot of fun with him!  I miss him!  LOL You have to have a little sense of humor.  Otherwise, it will just be a boring back and forth discussion with no action or excitement and ultimately no result. 


Edited by islamispeace - 20 May 2011 at 6:38pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 74 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com